OT SS going to the source

On 1/12/05 5:29 PM, in article , "Dianne
Lewandowski" wrote:

Cheryl Isaak wrote:
Ok - you're right - everyone is handicapped.

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said everyone is handicapped.
That's a pretty strong word. I said we're not all created equal, and
that some have lesser (or more) abilities than others.
Dianne


I say that in the eyes of God and in the eyes of the law, we are all to be
treated equally!

But that obviously isn't good enough for you!

Cheryl

I think so but it does depend on how you define the terms. My example:
Someone's space heater falls over and the house is totaled. People
are injured (luckily not killed).

A responsible citizen could say, "I've paid my taxes so the government
should aid the family--in fact my tax money funded the fire department
that came to get them out of the house! Their misfortune is not my
direct fault. I am responsible enough to heat my house in a safer way
and expect others to do the same. Why should I give any more money to
help them?"

A good citizen could be heartbroken for the victims even if they've
never met. This person gives every last cent he has on hand to the
victim relief fund. The next day the good citizen's quarterly garbage
bill arrives in the mail. He forgot all about it and since he has given
away all of his money, he has no means to pay it on time. Garbage
collection is halted (his kindheartedness has put him in this position
more than once). He is now an irresponsible citizen because his garbage
is piling up (health hazard, eyesore, odor, etc.) until he can pay the bill.

I know these characters are a bit extreme, but haven't we met people
like both of these?

Cheryl Isaak wrote:
And just to play devil's advocate a bit - is it possible to be a good
citizen with out being a responsible one? How about the other - responsible
without being a good citizen?
I am wrestling with this a bit due to a conversation I've had recently with
some one I know via Scouts.

--
Brenda

Cheryl Isaak wrote:

I say that in the eyes of God and in the eyes of the law, we are all to be
treated equally!

I can't address the issue of God's eyes, but in the eyes of the law, we
are absolutely not to be treated equally. If you disagree, read the
Americans with Disabilities Act.

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

Cheryl , did you vote for any politician in your life? , if yoiu ever
did ,,,weren`t you an inteligent woman , taken in by some not always
100 % promisses , almost willingly ????
it is part of our nature to trust others and trust hopes
mirjam
o - what I keep saying - I don't understand it - why are some many
apparently intelligent people taken in.

We are all created by the same gift of life. We are all truly equally
gifted. You only see the frailness - I see the possibility of all men and
women.

Cheryl

Cheryl , yes one can be responsible and NOT vote , in certain
political situations !!!
mirjam


Brenda -

Better said. Thank you

I have this pet peeve about responsible citizenship - have had from about
7th grade.

My history teacher that year was a man whose family came out East Germany
and had found relatives living in the States. While I am sure it mostly fell
on deaf ears, he spent a lot of time talking about the duties of
citizenship, mostly about voting, especially about informed voting, about
paying a fair tax, about tyranny.

And just to play devil's advocate a bit - is it possible to be a good
citizen with out being a responsible one? How about the other - responsible
without being a good citizen?
I am wrestling with this a bit due to a conversation I've had recently with
some one I know via Scouts.
Cheryl



On 1/11/05 4:16 PM, in article ,
"Brenda" wrote:

Oddly enough, I know several people who can't read or do basic math who
happen to be outstanding citizens. They are hard-working people who
live to help others and do not believe any task is beneath their
dignity. But yes, they are easily conned so they do need to have
someone protect their interests. I believe that is more in line with
what you are trying to get across.

Cheryl Isaak wrote:
I was speaking philosophically to some degree - I really don't know how to
"enforce" it. I deeply and sincerely believe that if one CAN NOT read or do
basic math (add, subtract), one can not be a good citizen or a responsible
one. By third grade (age 8-10), those basic skills need to be in place to
give each child a fighting chance.

I have not advocated not giving those with disabilities an education.

--
Brenda

Dianne , some people would call this kind of upbringing Brain washed
I grew up with very strong values instilled about citizenship and
adulthood. Taking responsibility for one's mistakes. Taking
responsibility as a citizen (I have volunteered often in civic affairs
and always vote and stay as informed as possible). Lying in our
household was a heinous crime. My parents ran a tight ship, and their
parents held the same values.
All this ideas are very well and served a different world ,, than we
have now. On the one hand we are all `more informed` about many things
and Going ons ,,, on the other hand ,, do you really know all about
your politicians Finnace back ground ???? who supports them , and what
gains they have from Controlling the country ??? how come not one
president in the USA , comes from poor backgrounds ??? Just to quote
some inter4esting dillema .. so maybe responsible citizen should not
vote ,,,, or do other acts,,,, Volunteering is great , but as it
really is , many female vulonteers , by volunteering enable politians
to cut government payments to public causes , while at the same time
keep female paychecks low ,,, there are many side effects to `
citizens responsible behaviour `..... which in many countries enable
more curuption at the higher politics ...
But not everyone is born with the capacity. Nor are they born into a
family that instills these values. Nor are they in school systems which
also promote them. One has only to read here, recently, the posts on
cheating in the classroom to know that somewhere we are failing as a
society.
Maybe both family and school systems are wrong ?? maybe they should
have instilled in us more "Doubting the systems !!!"? Cheating in
classrooms has not soi mych to do with education as with Samples from
above , of the powers that rule and cheat the citizens ,,,,
Anyone that saw the Convention of the politicians that came to speak
about helping the Tsunamy victims , and DIDN~T feel ANNOYED at the
Flower arrangements in the middle of the hall ????? should ask him/her
self why ???? those flowers fee , too festive and the fee could feed
somebody !!!
mirjam
Do I think there ever was a time when 99% of the citizens took
responsibility and all these other related values to heart? No.

Do I think the percentages are lower now than 50 or 60 years ago? Yes.

And just to play devil's advocate a bit - is it possible to be a good
citizen with out being a responsible one? How about the other - responsible
without being a good citizen?

Define good citizen.

Define "responsible".

The reason I'm asking those questions? Because (as an example), if you
asked a question of 50 parents whether they encourage cheating or lying,
they will all raise their hands and say, "Absolutely not!" But if their
children are caught in school cheating or lying, many of those same
parents will defend their children with one excuse after another.

So, the definition depends upon when and how you're asking the question,
and also who it is affecting. :-)

Dianne
--
"The Journal of Needlework" - The E-zine for All Needleworkers
http://journal.heritageshoppe.com

Cheryl ,, i agree with you that it should be so,,,,,,


I say that in the eyes of God and in the eyes of the law, we are all to be
treated equally!

But that obviously isn't good enough for you!
But is this really happening ,,, in real life ????
mirjam

Cheryl

All to close to reality I'm afraid.

Interesting choice of fire cause - with the return of winter, we (locally)
get a rash of space heater related fires, especially in the multifamily
homes.
Cheryl


On 1/12/05 10:40 PM, in article ,
"Brenda" wrote:

I think so but it does depend on how you define the terms. My example:
Someone's space heater falls over and the house is totaled. People
are injured (luckily not killed).

A responsible citizen could say, "I've paid my taxes so the government
should aid the family--in fact my tax money funded the fire department
that came to get them out of the house! Their misfortune is not my
direct fault. I am responsible enough to heat my house in a safer way
and expect others to do the same. Why should I give any more money to
help them?"

A good citizen could be heartbroken for the victims even if they've
never met. This person gives every last cent he has on hand to the
victim relief fund. The next day the good citizen's quarterly garbage
bill arrives in the mail. He forgot all about it and since he has given
away all of his money, he has no means to pay it on time. Garbage
collection is halted (his kindheartedness has put him in this position
more than once). He is now an irresponsible citizen because his garbage
is piling up (health hazard, eyesore, odor, etc.) until he can pay the bill.

I know these characters are a bit extreme, but haven't we met people
like both of these?

Cheryl Isaak wrote:
And just to play devil's advocate a bit - is it possible to be a good
citizen with out being a responsible one? How about the other - responsible
without being a good citizen?
I am wrestling with this a bit due to a conversation I've had recently with
some one I know via Scouts.

--
Brenda

On 1/12/05 11:05 PM, in article
et, "Dr. Brat"
wrote:

Cheryl Isaak wrote:

I say that in the eyes of God and in the eyes of the law, we are all to be
treated equally!

I can't address the issue of God's eyes, but in the eyes of the law, we
are absolutely not to be treated equally. If you disagree, read the
Americans with Disabilities Act.

Elizabeth

Actually I have! long story - subject of private discussion please.

Cheryl

Mirjam,

I often hold my nose when I vote - I feel I must vote, that writing my own
name in is not my best option, but all the candidates reek.

Cheryl


On 1/13/05 1:13 AM, in article , "Mirjam
Bruck-Cohen" wrote:

Cheryl , did you vote for any politician in your life? , if yoiu ever
did ,,,weren`t you an inteligent woman , taken in by some not always
100 % promisses , almost willingly ????
it is part of our nature to trust others and trust hopes
mirjam
o - what I keep saying - I don't understand it - why are some many
apparently intelligent people taken in.

We are all created by the same gift of life. We are all truly equally
gifted. You only see the frailness - I see the possibility of all men and
women.

Cheryl