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craft/art article by Grayson Perry



 
 
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  #11  
Old May 25th 05, 08:44 AM
Steve Mills
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I dislike rigid definitions; I feel they are constricting and often send
the wrong messages. There is no need to pigeon-hole anything to do with
Art-Craft, they are inseparable.
If a piece of work *speaks* to me, that is what matters, not how it was
made, whether it is a pot, a painting, a bridge, a building, or
whatever. That it provokes a favourable reaction in me is what matters.

Steve
Bath
UK


In article , A & V
writes

Snip
But that is just the thing, I don't get the message from the article that he
thinks that craft is inferior, he is just stating that they are not the
same.

Snip
--
Steve Mills
Bath
UK
Ads
  #12  
Old May 25th 05, 10:23 AM
A & V
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Well, I guess that if we are to discuss things we have to use some sort of
common vocabulary.
Andrea
"Steve Mills" wrote in message
...
I dislike rigid definitions; I feel they are constricting and often send
the wrong messages. There is no need to pigeon-hole anything to do with
Art-Craft, they are inseparable.
If a piece of work *speaks* to me, that is what matters, not how it was
made, whether it is a pot, a painting, a bridge, a building, or
whatever. That it provokes a favourable reaction in me is what matters.

Steve
Bath
UK


In article , A & V
writes

Snip
But that is just the thing, I don't get the message from the article that

he
thinks that craft is inferior, he is just stating that they are not the
same.

Snip
--
Steve Mills
Bath
UK



  #13  
Old May 25th 05, 06:48 PM
DKat
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I like discussions that have enough controversy to force one into thinking
about an issue. This is one of those. I am a potter that loves the entire
process of potting - from recycling clay to analyzing glazes and everything
in between. I had one of my pots in the MET as part of an Asian flower
arrangement. I suppose you could consider that 'art'. I don't know and I
don't really care. I do the work because I love it from top to bottom. It
gives me pleasure when someone else is able to appreciate what my minds eye
sees in something I have created in the same way that I get pleasure when
someone admires my children. They are what I have put myself into and egos
like to be massaged on occasion.

I still stand by my statement that 'art' is anything that someone has
created with the intent of arousing an emotion no matter what that emotion
is. Whether it is successful 'art' or not is entirely dependent on the
audience. I suppose I could convince myself that any artifact that
generates an emotion becomes 'art' whether it was intended as such or not.
I have seen horribly crafted beginners pieces sell at our pottery sales and
the buyer almost always exclaims how much they love how handmade it looks.
MOMA has a display of furniture, appliances and all sorts of other man made
objects from earlier periods that are now treated as 'art' (really fun
display if you get to NYC). These are artifacts that no longer really have
function but still hold the beauty of their design and elicit emotions
connected with associations with the period they represent.

As I first stated - you can have art without the skill of the craft, you can
have the skill of the craft without it being considered art (at least in the
current time frame), you can have the skill of the craft and all the
features of art or, the worse cell of the design. - have neither the skill
of the craft or any qualities that you could name as art. If you have the
skill of the craft, I would claim that at some time, with some audience you
will have art. Women's quilts of previous generations were not considered
'art' in most part because it was simply women's work and a craft. It is
now treated as valued 'art'.

The author states 'It is all these things combined that make art exciting'.
What underlies that statement is "for me". These are subjective things.
But what made the article raise my hackles was its form and the opening
statement "I see the craft world as a kind of lagoon and the art world in
general as the ocean. Some artists shelter in this lagoon, because their
imagination isn't robust enough to go out into the wider sea."

I find no way to not see that as an offensive insult. I am enjoying the
debate however that it has generated

Donna

"A & V" wrote in message
...
But that is just the thing, I don't get the message from the article that
he
thinks that craft is inferior, he is just stating that they are not the
same.

..."But craft isn't just a synonym for the hand-made. It is about
technical
skill but there must be a good idea guiding it, either traditional or
innovative. I love craft objects to look at, but for me the best thing is
a
combination of its meaning, its beauty and its craftsmanship. It is all
these things combined that make art exciting
The essential distinction between art and craft is that art has an
emphasis
on feelings and ideas and the crafts have an emphasis on technique."...

So I guess that he is trying to define terms art and craft. That is an
old,
old debate. How would you define them?? I personally start having problems
when "design" is distilled out as separate from both art and craft. I
think
that "design" can't stand by itself, but "craft" can. An object can be
"craft" without being "art" and vice versa. What we are ultimately looking
for are those which are both.. In my opinion Art is something we strive
for
when creating, jet it only seldom happens. Not every painting is "ART"
most
of them are just paintings -"craft" (if that!).
I don't think that pots are craft and paintings art, yet I found that
quite
often people refer to them in those terms.
I guess that part of the debate is purely linguistic, but language is
changing as well as our use of it and we sometimes need to define (perhaps
redefine) terms we use. I often struggle when describing my work. Mostly I
don"t make pots or sculptures in traditional sense, yet often I still call
them "pots" for the lack of a better word.
I hope my opinions don't offend, I think that we are all on the same side.
I
am sad too about the changes in education, but perhaps redefining can
help.
If ceramics is not studied as craft is it coming back as art or as design,
or perhaps as design for industry. Clay will surface somewhere! Actually,
WA
school of art and design where I studied ceramics has changed the name of
the courses to include the word "craft" ( I can't remember exact
wording) -
yet at the same time they had cut curriculum in half and almost eliminated
glaze technology. Now I know how the knowledge can die out. But that has
happened all through history I believe... look at the old roman (or was it
Greek?) pots which were decorated only with slip - I don't think it is
repeatable today.
Sorry for all the rumblings. Hope to hear your opinion
Andrea

"dkat" wrote in message
...
Perhaps I had such a negative response to it because I have seen crafts
being eliminated from our schools because of the attitude displayed in

this
article. The arts departments in our University will not even allow
functional pieces to be created in the ceramics classes - all you see

coming
out of that department are what I consider 'gag me with a spoon'

sculptures.
If you look at Picasso's work when he started out, it was beautiful
classical drawings. Even if you do want to move into the abstract and
the
whimsical you should at least have a sense of the history of the working

of
clay and be able to create the 'classical' pieces. I think you should
understand the fundamentals of what goes into glazes and what makes them
melt, gives them color, etc. but I don't declare what makes one form of
creation superior to another form of creation. I tend to be somewhat

hostile
to anyone that builds their own ego up by declaring how others are

inferior.


"A & V" wrote in message
...
I Have just read the article - thanks Annemarie - and I am surprised at

some
peoples reaction. I dont find the article derogarotive. Why such
hostile
reaction to what it says?
So, I went over it again and I tend to agree with most things he says.
Actualy, almost all of it. Actualy, I cant find anything that I
strongly
disagree with. He touched lots of aspects of art/craft in a very brief

way
here... skimed the surface of many (perhaps painful )issues. I would

like
to
read more and in depth opinions.
As soon as I get some ink for my ever hungry printer, I will print the
article ant stick it on the wall in the studio to remind me who I am
and
where I want to be.
Thanks again Annemarie!!
Andrea






"Lee In Mashiko, Japan" wrote in message
ups.com...
What if they had to have yard sales to pay for war? You can judge a
society by what it spends its money on.

--
? Lee Love ?
??? ?? ?
in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://hankos.blogspot.com/ Visual Bookmarks
http://ikiru.blogspot.com/ Zen and Craft

"With Humans it's what's here (he points to his heart) that makes the
difference. If you don't have it in the heart, nothing you make will
make a difference." ~~Bernard Leach~~ (As told to Dean Schwarz)









  #14  
Old May 25th 05, 07:00 PM
DKat
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I forgot to add - While Grayson Perry's work is not at all to my taste, I
would not question his ability as an artist. His work is highly skilled,
dramatic and it without question generates emotions.

DK

"A & V" wrote in message
...
Well, I guess that if we are to discuss things we have to use some sort of
common vocabulary.
Andrea
"Steve Mills" wrote in message
...
I dislike rigid definitions; I feel they are constricting and often send
the wrong messages. There is no need to pigeon-hole anything to do with
Art-Craft, they are inseparable.
If a piece of work *speaks* to me, that is what matters, not how it was
made, whether it is a pot, a painting, a bridge, a building, or
whatever. That it provokes a favourable reaction in me is what matters.

Steve
Bath
UK


In article , A & V
writes

Snip
But that is just the thing, I don't get the message from the article
that

he
thinks that craft is inferior, he is just stating that they are not the
same.

Snip
--
Steve Mills
Bath
UK





  #15  
Old May 26th 05, 05:39 AM
A & V
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi Donna,
I totaly agree with you, so it is hard to "debate", but as I'm also enjoying
it ...here I am again.
I have recently atended a series of busines workshops for art/craft
practitioners. Speakers were mostly from business management world. I think
that the idea is to give us dreamers some business sense ( you have a great
product, but how can you make money marketing it...all very trendy buzz
words) athough I agree that if we are to have income from what we do we need
at least some basic business sense, I observed that those who embraced the
ideas the most have (in my opinion) losst their "art". My fellow clay artist
(my title, I don't know if she would agree with it) who used to do
intricately painted bowls, textured teapots and thought provoking sulptural
bowls is now making slipcast vases with stamped decoration (How many hours
of work in each piece, how to cut hours down, how to save on glazes). While
she was making pieces from the hart, they were great, now she "can't afford"
to experiment, to try new things... she feels she has to play it safe. So
when Grayson talks about a lagoon, he strikes a cord with how I feel about
what is happening to my friend.The worst thing is that a lot of
practitioners attended the workshops and are now keeping each other
comfortable within the proces. I hope that she will figure out what is
happening and bounce back. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that it is
wrong to market our products, or to have busines plan, or to make profit.
But it is wrong to call that art. Those pieces are missing soul. Of course,
I am generalizing. Some of those pieces will have soul too ( as grayson
points out - generaly as a mistake). And I don't think that something needs
to be unique to be art... but.... It is a bit like McDonalds calling itself
a restaurant. (which they DO and nobody is challenging it!) Does that make
any sense? I find it hard to put it in the words.

Andrea


"DKat" wrote in message
...
I like discussions that have enough controversy to force one into thinking
about an issue. This is one of those. I am a potter that loves the

entire
process of potting - from recycling clay to analyzing glazes and

everything
in between. I had one of my pots in the MET as part of an Asian flower
arrangement. I suppose you could consider that 'art'. I don't know and I
don't really care. I do the work because I love it from top to bottom.

It
gives me pleasure when someone else is able to appreciate what my minds

eye
sees in something I have created in the same way that I get pleasure when
someone admires my children. They are what I have put myself into and

egos
like to be massaged on occasion.

I still stand by my statement that 'art' is anything that someone has
created with the intent of arousing an emotion no matter what that emotion
is. Whether it is successful 'art' or not is entirely dependent on the
audience. I suppose I could convince myself that any artifact that
generates an emotion becomes 'art' whether it was intended as such or not.
I have seen horribly crafted beginners pieces sell at our pottery sales

and
the buyer almost always exclaims how much they love how handmade it looks.
MOMA has a display of furniture, appliances and all sorts of other man

made
objects from earlier periods that are now treated as 'art' (really fun
display if you get to NYC). These are artifacts that no longer really

have
function but still hold the beauty of their design and elicit emotions
connected with associations with the period they represent.

As I first stated - you can have art without the skill of the craft, you

can
have the skill of the craft without it being considered art (at least in

the
current time frame), you can have the skill of the craft and all the
features of art or, the worse cell of the design. - have neither the skill
of the craft or any qualities that you could name as art. If you have the


skill of the craft, I would claim that at some time, with some audience

you
will have art. Women's quilts of previous generations were not

considered
'art' in most part because it was simply women's work and a craft. It is
now treated as valued 'art'.

The author states 'It is all these things combined that make art

exciting'.
What underlies that statement is "for me". These are subjective things.
But what made the article raise my hackles was its form and the opening
statement "I see the craft world as a kind of lagoon and the art world in
general as the ocean. Some artists shelter in this lagoon, because their
imagination isn't robust enough to go out into the wider sea."

I find no way to not see that as an offensive insult. I am enjoying the
debate however that it has generated

Donna

"A & V" wrote in message
...
But that is just the thing, I don't get the message from the article

that
he
thinks that craft is inferior, he is just stating that they are not the
same.

..."But craft isn't just a synonym for the hand-made. It is about
technical
skill but there must be a good idea guiding it, either traditional or
innovative. I love craft objects to look at, but for me the best thing

is
a
combination of its meaning, its beauty and its craftsmanship. It is all
these things combined that make art exciting
The essential distinction between art and craft is that art has an
emphasis
on feelings and ideas and the crafts have an emphasis on technique."...

So I guess that he is trying to define terms art and craft. That is an
old,
old debate. How would you define them?? I personally start having

problems
when "design" is distilled out as separate from both art and craft. I
think
that "design" can't stand by itself, but "craft" can. An object can be
"craft" without being "art" and vice versa. What we are ultimately

looking
for are those which are both.. In my opinion Art is something we strive
for
when creating, jet it only seldom happens. Not every painting is "ART"
most
of them are just paintings -"craft" (if that!).
I don't think that pots are craft and paintings art, yet I found that
quite
often people refer to them in those terms.
I guess that part of the debate is purely linguistic, but language is
changing as well as our use of it and we sometimes need to define

(perhaps
redefine) terms we use. I often struggle when describing my work. Mostly

I
don"t make pots or sculptures in traditional sense, yet often I still

call
them "pots" for the lack of a better word.
I hope my opinions don't offend, I think that we are all on the same

side.
I
am sad too about the changes in education, but perhaps redefining can
help.
If ceramics is not studied as craft is it coming back as art or as

design,
or perhaps as design for industry. Clay will surface somewhere!

Actually,
WA
school of art and design where I studied ceramics has changed the name

of
the courses to include the word "craft" ( I can't remember exact
wording) -
yet at the same time they had cut curriculum in half and almost

eliminated
glaze technology. Now I know how the knowledge can die out. But that has
happened all through history I believe... look at the old roman (or was

it
Greek?) pots which were decorated only with slip - I don't think it is
repeatable today.
Sorry for all the rumblings. Hope to hear your opinion
Andrea

"dkat" wrote in message
...
Perhaps I had such a negative response to it because I have seen crafts
being eliminated from our schools because of the attitude displayed in

this
article. The arts departments in our University will not even allow
functional pieces to be created in the ceramics classes - all you see

coming
out of that department are what I consider 'gag me with a spoon'

sculptures.
If you look at Picasso's work when he started out, it was beautiful
classical drawings. Even if you do want to move into the abstract and
the
whimsical you should at least have a sense of the history of the

working
of
clay and be able to create the 'classical' pieces. I think you should
understand the fundamentals of what goes into glazes and what makes

them
melt, gives them color, etc. but I don't declare what makes one form of
creation superior to another form of creation. I tend to be somewhat

hostile
to anyone that builds their own ego up by declaring how others are

inferior.


"A & V" wrote in message
...
I Have just read the article - thanks Annemarie - and I am surprised

at
some
peoples reaction. I dont find the article derogarotive. Why such
hostile
reaction to what it says?
So, I went over it again and I tend to agree with most things he

says.
Actualy, almost all of it. Actualy, I cant find anything that I
strongly
disagree with. He touched lots of aspects of art/craft in a very

brief
way
here... skimed the surface of many (perhaps painful )issues. I would

like
to
read more and in depth opinions.
As soon as I get some ink for my ever hungry printer, I will print

the
article ant stick it on the wall in the studio to remind me who I am
and
where I want to be.
Thanks again Annemarie!!
Andrea






"Lee In Mashiko, Japan" wrote in message
ups.com...
What if they had to have yard sales to pay for war? You can judge a
society by what it spends its money on.

--
? Lee Love ?
??? ?? ?
in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://hankos.blogspot.com/ Visual Bookmarks
http://ikiru.blogspot.com/ Zen and Craft

"With Humans it's what's here (he points to his heart) that makes

the
difference. If you don't have it in the heart, nothing you make will
make a difference." ~~Bernard Leach~~ (As told to Dean Schwarz)











  #16  
Old May 26th 05, 03:28 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

back around 94-95 i lost my "real" job as an engineer & worked full
time in pottery, and substitute teaching. i learned fast i needed to
crank out $regular$ pieces for money, but set myself a policy that the
last piece of the day was going to be a "piece for me".

i distinctly ended each day on an up note this way - throwing something
extra large, more shape, whatever.

now i have that real job again and through this sponsor i can now play
with clay & do what i want.

~ but it sure is hard to do clay full time & try to advance in your
art.

see ya

steve



A & V wrote:
Hi Donna,
I totaly agree with you, so it is hard to "debate", but as I'm also enjoying
it ...here I am again.
I have recently atended a series of busines workshops for art/craft
practitioners. Speakers were mostly from business management world. I think
that the idea is to give us dreamers some business sense ( you have a great
product, but how can you make money marketing it...all very trendy buzz
words) athough I agree that if we are to have income from what we do we need
at least some basic business sense, I observed that those who embraced the
ideas the most have (in my opinion) losst their "art". My fellow clay artist
(my title, I don't know if she would agree with it) who used to do
intricately painted bowls, textured teapots and thought provoking sulptural
bowls is now making slipcast vases with stamped decoration (How many hours
of work in each piece, how to cut hours down, how to save on glazes). While
she was making pieces from the hart, they were great, now she "can't afford"
to experiment, to try new things... she feels she has to play it safe. So
when Grayson talks about a lagoon, he strikes a cord with how I feel about
what is happening to my friend.The worst thing is that a lot of
practitioners attended the workshops and are now keeping each other
comfortable within the proces. I hope that she will figure out what is
happening and bounce back. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that it is
wrong to market our products, or to have busines plan, or to make profit.
But it is wrong to call that art. Those pieces are missing soul. Of course,
I am generalizing. Some of those pieces will have soul too ( as grayson
points out - generaly as a mistake). And I don't think that something needs
to be unique to be art... but.... It is a bit like McDonalds calling itself
a restaurant. (which they DO and nobody is challenging it!) Does that make
any sense? I find it hard to put it in the words.

Andrea


"DKat" wrote in message
...
I like discussions that have enough controversy to force one into thinking
about an issue. This is one of those. I am a potter that loves the

entire
process of potting - from recycling clay to analyzing glazes and

everything
in between. I had one of my pots in the MET as part of an Asian flower
arrangement. I suppose you could consider that 'art'. I don't know and I
don't really care. I do the work because I love it from top to bottom.

It
gives me pleasure when someone else is able to appreciate what my minds

eye
sees in something I have created in the same way that I get pleasure when
someone admires my children. They are what I have put myself into and

egos
like to be massaged on occasion.

I still stand by my statement that 'art' is anything that someone has
created with the intent of arousing an emotion no matter what that emotion
is. Whether it is successful 'art' or not is entirely dependent on the
audience. I suppose I could convince myself that any artifact that
generates an emotion becomes 'art' whether it was intended as such or not.
I have seen horribly crafted beginners pieces sell at our pottery sales

and
the buyer almost always exclaims how much they love how handmade it looks.
MOMA has a display of furniture, appliances and all sorts of other man

made
objects from earlier periods that are now treated as 'art' (really fun
display if you get to NYC). These are artifacts that no longer really

have
function but still hold the beauty of their design and elicit emotions
connected with associations with the period they represent.

As I first stated - you can have art without the skill of the craft, you

can
have the skill of the craft without it being considered art (at least in

the
current time frame), you can have the skill of the craft and all the
features of art or, the worse cell of the design. - have neither the skill
of the craft or any qualities that you could name as art. If you have the


skill of the craft, I would claim that at some time, with some audience

you
will have art. Women's quilts of previous generations were not

considered
'art' in most part because it was simply women's work and a craft. It is
now treated as valued 'art'.

The author states 'It is all these things combined that make art

exciting'.
What underlies that statement is "for me". These are subjective things.
But what made the article raise my hackles was its form and the opening
statement "I see the craft world as a kind of lagoon and the art world in
general as the ocean. Some artists shelter in this lagoon, because their
imagination isn't robust enough to go out into the wider sea."

I find no way to not see that as an offensive insult. I am enjoying the
debate however that it has generated

Donna

"A & V" wrote in message
...
But that is just the thing, I don't get the message from the article

that
he
thinks that craft is inferior, he is just stating that they are not the
same.

..."But craft isn't just a synonym for the hand-made. It is about
technical
skill but there must be a good idea guiding it, either traditional or
innovative. I love craft objects to look at, but for me the best thing

is
a
combination of its meaning, its beauty and its craftsmanship. It is all
these things combined that make art exciting
The essential distinction between art and craft is that art has an
emphasis
on feelings and ideas and the crafts have an emphasis on technique."...

So I guess that he is trying to define terms art and craft. That is an
old,
old debate. How would you define them?? I personally start having

problems
when "design" is distilled out as separate from both art and craft. I
think
that "design" can't stand by itself, but "craft" can. An object can be
"craft" without being "art" and vice versa. What we are ultimately

looking
for are those which are both.. In my opinion Art is something we strive
for
when creating, jet it only seldom happens. Not every painting is "ART"
most
of them are just paintings -"craft" (if that!).
I don't think that pots are craft and paintings art, yet I found that
quite
often people refer to them in those terms.
I guess that part of the debate is purely linguistic, but language is
changing as well as our use of it and we sometimes need to define

(perhaps
redefine) terms we use. I often struggle when describing my work. Mostly

I
don"t make pots or sculptures in traditional sense, yet often I still

call
them "pots" for the lack of a better word.
I hope my opinions don't offend, I think that we are all on the same

side.
I
am sad too about the changes in education, but perhaps redefining can
help.
If ceramics is not studied as craft is it coming back as art or as

design,
or perhaps as design for industry. Clay will surface somewhere!

Actually,
WA
school of art and design where I studied ceramics has changed the name

of
the courses to include the word "craft" ( I can't remember exact
wording) -
yet at the same time they had cut curriculum in half and almost

eliminated
glaze technology. Now I know how the knowledge can die out. But that has
happened all through history I believe... look at the old roman (or was

it
Greek?) pots which were decorated only with slip - I don't think it is
repeatable today.
Sorry for all the rumblings. Hope to hear your opinion
Andrea

"dkat" wrote in message
...
Perhaps I had such a negative response to it because I have seen crafts
being eliminated from our schools because of the attitude displayed in
this
article. The arts departments in our University will not even allow
functional pieces to be created in the ceramics classes - all you see
coming
out of that department are what I consider 'gag me with a spoon'
sculptures.
If you look at Picasso's work when he started out, it was beautiful
classical drawings. Even if you do want to move into the abstract and
the
whimsical you should at least have a sense of the history of the

working
of
clay and be able to create the 'classical' pieces. I think you should
understand the fundamentals of what goes into glazes and what makes

them
melt, gives them color, etc. but I don't declare what makes one form of
creation superior to another form of creation. I tend to be somewhat
hostile
to anyone that builds their own ego up by declaring how others are
inferior.


"A & V" wrote in message
...
I Have just read the article - thanks Annemarie - and I am surprised

at
some
peoples reaction. I dont find the article derogarotive. Why such
hostile
reaction to what it says?
So, I went over it again and I tend to agree with most things he

says.
Actualy, almost all of it. Actualy, I cant find anything that I
strongly
disagree with. He touched lots of aspects of art/craft in a very

brief
way
here... skimed the surface of many (perhaps painful )issues. I would
like
to
read more and in depth opinions.
As soon as I get some ink for my ever hungry printer, I will print

the
article ant stick it on the wall in the studio to remind me who I am
and
where I want to be.
Thanks again Annemarie!!
Andrea






"Lee In Mashiko, Japan" wrote in message
ups.com...
What if they had to have yard sales to pay for war? You can judge a
society by what it spends its money on.

--
? Lee Love ?
??? ?? ?
in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://hankos.blogspot.com/ Visual Bookmarks
http://ikiru.blogspot.com/ Zen and Craft

"With Humans it's what's here (he points to his heart) that makes

the
difference. If you don't have it in the heart, nothing you make will
make a difference." ~~Bernard Leach~~ (As told to Dean Schwarz)










  #17  
Old May 26th 05, 03:59 PM
DKat
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I think you put it into words very well. I had not thought of if in those
terms at all until you did. I have the luxury of not needing to support
myself with my pottery and being egocentric completely failed to see this
aspect. With my value system I believe I would rather be a 'starving
artist' than a wealthy businesswoman but I kick myself as a reminder that
this is my choice and not one I should expect from everyone that works in
clay or any other creative medium. Still I find it heartbreaking to see
someone who creates beautiful work being forced to stop creating so that
they can earn a living. It is like watching a parent forcing their child to
be just like everyone else.



Every once in a while a student complains about not being able to have a
bright fire engine red glaze with perfectly identical sized pieces. I
respond, 'You can - just go down to Targets and buy it cheaply off the
shelf'. We are not producing 'Mc Donald's and we should expect it of
ourselves IMO. There is no way I can compete with Corning in producing what
they do and I would not want to. What is the point of my producing what a
machine can do? I want the buyer who loves seeing a finger indent in the
bottom of the pot where it was pushed of the wheel.



I believe one of our problems is overhead and exposure. If we take our
pieces to a gallery, store, fair, etc. we have to mark up what we are
selling to cover what to me are often exorbitant charges. It strikes me if
food trucks can pull over to the side of the road to sell their food then we
should be able to do the same with our pottery. There are enough people out
there that appreciate the work; it is simply a matter of grabbing their
attention. Perhaps we should have Starbuck's mugs with their original
prices next to our mugs and point out that they can buy a machine made
product or a unique piece of art for the same price? I love the image....

Donna

"A & V" wrote in message
...
Hi Donna,
I totaly agree with you, so it is hard to "debate", but as I'm also
enjoying
it ...here I am again.
I have recently atended a series of busines workshops for art/craft
practitioners. Speakers were mostly from business management world. I
think
that the idea is to give us dreamers some business sense ( you have a
great
product, but how can you make money marketing it...all very trendy buzz
words) athough I agree that if we are to have income from what we do we
need
at least some basic business sense, I observed that those who embraced the
ideas the most have (in my opinion) losst their "art". My fellow clay
artist
(my title, I don't know if she would agree with it) who used to do
intricately painted bowls, textured teapots and thought provoking
sulptural
bowls is now making slipcast vases with stamped decoration (How many hours
of work in each piece, how to cut hours down, how to save on glazes).
While
she was making pieces from the hart, they were great, now she "can't
afford"
to experiment, to try new things... she feels she has to play it safe. So
when Grayson talks about a lagoon, he strikes a cord with how I feel about
what is happening to my friend.The worst thing is that a lot of
practitioners attended the workshops and are now keeping each other
comfortable within the proces. I hope that she will figure out what is
happening and bounce back. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that it is
wrong to market our products, or to have busines plan, or to make profit.
But it is wrong to call that art. Those pieces are missing soul. Of
course,
I am generalizing. Some of those pieces will have soul too ( as grayson
points out - generaly as a mistake). And I don't think that something
needs
to be unique to be art... but.... It is a bit like McDonalds calling
itself
a restaurant. (which they DO and nobody is challenging it!) Does that make
any sense? I find it hard to put it in the words.

Andrea


"DKat" wrote in message
...
I like discussions that have enough controversy to force one into
thinking
about an issue. This is one of those. I am a potter that loves the

entire
process of potting - from recycling clay to analyzing glazes and

everything
in between. I had one of my pots in the MET as part of an Asian flower
arrangement. I suppose you could consider that 'art'. I don't know and
I
don't really care. I do the work because I love it from top to bottom.

It
gives me pleasure when someone else is able to appreciate what my minds

eye
sees in something I have created in the same way that I get pleasure when
someone admires my children. They are what I have put myself into and

egos
like to be massaged on occasion.

I still stand by my statement that 'art' is anything that someone has
created with the intent of arousing an emotion no matter what that
emotion
is. Whether it is successful 'art' or not is entirely dependent on the
audience. I suppose I could convince myself that any artifact that
generates an emotion becomes 'art' whether it was intended as such or
not.
I have seen horribly crafted beginners pieces sell at our pottery sales

and
the buyer almost always exclaims how much they love how handmade it
looks.
MOMA has a display of furniture, appliances and all sorts of other man

made
objects from earlier periods that are now treated as 'art' (really fun
display if you get to NYC). These are artifacts that no longer really

have
function but still hold the beauty of their design and elicit emotions
connected with associations with the period they represent.

As I first stated - you can have art without the skill of the craft, you

can
have the skill of the craft without it being considered art (at least in

the
current time frame), you can have the skill of the craft and all the
features of art or, the worse cell of the design. - have neither the
skill
of the craft or any qualities that you could name as art. If you have
the


skill of the craft, I would claim that at some time, with some audience

you
will have art. Women's quilts of previous generations were not

considered
'art' in most part because it was simply women's work and a craft. It is
now treated as valued 'art'.

The author states 'It is all these things combined that make art

exciting'.
What underlies that statement is "for me". These are subjective things.
But what made the article raise my hackles was its form and the opening
statement "I see the craft world as a kind of lagoon and the art world in
general as the ocean. Some artists shelter in this lagoon, because their
imagination isn't robust enough to go out into the wider sea."

I find no way to not see that as an offensive insult. I am enjoying the
debate however that it has generated

Donna

"A & V" wrote in message
...
But that is just the thing, I don't get the message from the article

that
he
thinks that craft is inferior, he is just stating that they are not the
same.

..."But craft isn't just a synonym for the hand-made. It is about
technical
skill but there must be a good idea guiding it, either traditional or
innovative. I love craft objects to look at, but for me the best thing

is
a
combination of its meaning, its beauty and its craftsmanship. It is all
these things combined that make art exciting
The essential distinction between art and craft is that art has an
emphasis
on feelings and ideas and the crafts have an emphasis on technique."...

So I guess that he is trying to define terms art and craft. That is an
old,
old debate. How would you define them?? I personally start having

problems
when "design" is distilled out as separate from both art and craft. I
think
that "design" can't stand by itself, but "craft" can. An object can be
"craft" without being "art" and vice versa. What we are ultimately

looking
for are those which are both.. In my opinion Art is something we strive
for
when creating, jet it only seldom happens. Not every painting is "ART"
most
of them are just paintings -"craft" (if that!).
I don't think that pots are craft and paintings art, yet I found that
quite
often people refer to them in those terms.
I guess that part of the debate is purely linguistic, but language is
changing as well as our use of it and we sometimes need to define

(perhaps
redefine) terms we use. I often struggle when describing my work.
Mostly

I
don"t make pots or sculptures in traditional sense, yet often I still

call
them "pots" for the lack of a better word.
I hope my opinions don't offend, I think that we are all on the same

side.
I
am sad too about the changes in education, but perhaps redefining can
help.
If ceramics is not studied as craft is it coming back as art or as

design,
or perhaps as design for industry. Clay will surface somewhere!

Actually,
WA
school of art and design where I studied ceramics has changed the name

of
the courses to include the word "craft" ( I can't remember exact
wording) -
yet at the same time they had cut curriculum in half and almost

eliminated
glaze technology. Now I know how the knowledge can die out. But that
has
happened all through history I believe... look at the old roman (or was

it
Greek?) pots which were decorated only with slip - I don't think it is
repeatable today.
Sorry for all the rumblings. Hope to hear your opinion
Andrea

"dkat" wrote in message
...
Perhaps I had such a negative response to it because I have seen
crafts
being eliminated from our schools because of the attitude displayed in
this
article. The arts departments in our University will not even allow
functional pieces to be created in the ceramics classes - all you see
coming
out of that department are what I consider 'gag me with a spoon'
sculptures.
If you look at Picasso's work when he started out, it was beautiful
classical drawings. Even if you do want to move into the abstract and
the
whimsical you should at least have a sense of the history of the

working
of
clay and be able to create the 'classical' pieces. I think you should
understand the fundamentals of what goes into glazes and what makes

them
melt, gives them color, etc. but I don't declare what makes one form
of
creation superior to another form of creation. I tend to be somewhat
hostile
to anyone that builds their own ego up by declaring how others are
inferior.


"A & V" wrote in message
...
I Have just read the article - thanks Annemarie - and I am surprised

at
some
peoples reaction. I dont find the article derogarotive. Why such
hostile
reaction to what it says?
So, I went over it again and I tend to agree with most things he

says.
Actualy, almost all of it. Actualy, I cant find anything that I
strongly
disagree with. He touched lots of aspects of art/craft in a very

brief
way
here... skimed the surface of many (perhaps painful )issues. I would
like
to
read more and in depth opinions.
As soon as I get some ink for my ever hungry printer, I will print

the
article ant stick it on the wall in the studio to remind me who I am
and
where I want to be.
Thanks again Annemarie!!
Andrea






"Lee In Mashiko, Japan" wrote in message
ups.com...
What if they had to have yard sales to pay for war? You can judge
a
society by what it spends its money on.

--
? Lee Love ?
??? ?? ?
in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
http://hankos.blogspot.com/ Visual Bookmarks
http://ikiru.blogspot.com/ Zen and Craft

"With Humans it's what's here (he points to his heart) that makes

the
difference. If you don't have it in the heart, nothing you make will
make a difference." ~~Bernard Leach~~ (As told to Dean Schwarz)













  #18  
Old May 27th 05, 04:40 PM
Johnny
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I have enjoyed the debate that is going on concerning art and craft.
This may be oversimplified, but I have always considered making the
pot, the sculptural form, or painting, as the craft. The art is the
result of the craft, or the actual piece. Just my 2 cents.

Johnny Horner
http://www.pawpawspottery.freeservers.com

  #19  
Old May 27th 05, 05:21 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

you've got something there ~ the *craft* process is sure fun, and when
done we often say "now THAT's one nice piece!" followed by, "yeah, and
look at THIS one!".

~ make more!

we just had a raku party the other night - some 40 people. you should
have heard the conversations around the finished pieces table that
night..

for me, a fat guy former gymnast, pottery is very much like gymnastics.
we learn the technique, and try & try & try again to make that perfect
pot. it's simply fun enough to stay at it. yet with the right passion
we slowly get into the 8's and 9's with our work.

see ya

steve



Johnny wrote:
I have enjoyed the debate that is going on concerning art and craft.
This may be oversimplified, but I have always considered making the
pot, the sculptural form, or painting, as the craft. The art is the
result of the craft, or the actual piece. Just my 2 cents.

Johnny Horner
http://www.pawpawspottery.freeservers.com


  #20  
Old May 29th 05, 05:35 AM
Xtra News
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"A & V" wrote in message
...
I Have just read the article - thanks Annemarie - and I am surprised at
some
peoples reaction. I dont find the article derogarotive. Why such hostile
reaction to what it says?
So, I went over it again and I tend to agree with most things he says.
Actualy, almost all of it. Actualy, I cant find anything that I strongly
disagree with. He touched lots of aspects of art/craft in a very brief way
here... skimed the surface of many (perhaps painful )issues. I would like
to
read more and in depth opinions.
As soon as I get some ink for my ever hungry printer, I will print the
article ant stick it on the wall in the studio to remind me who I am and
where I want to be.
Thanks again Annemarie!!
Andrea


Its a pleasure. We changed server and for some reason the newsgroups were
not working properly for a while and consiquently I ended up starting a
thread and then missing most of the interesting comments after.
I tend to agree with a lot of what he said too, whats more I think his work
is really great. The fact that the posts are handmade makes them less
perfect than thrown vessels but thats ok with me.
I listened to a talk by him when he came to NZ and he was dressed in a
little girl dress then too. He was fascinating to listen to, very
knowledgable charming. He showed slides of his work and life and there were
a couple of photos of him in adult female clothing and he actually looked
pretty good )
Whatever, I think that fact that he is a tranny is irrelevant to his work.
Some of his work is challenging, ie the subject matter is rather strong, but
it sure as heck evokes a response, and that to me means art )
Annemarie


 




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