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The Beadmakers Liberation Front



 
 
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  #41  
Old February 11th 04, 05:07 PM
Dr. Sooz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

http://www.blackberrybeads.com/Finis...Necklaces.html

ROFL - Get their prices!! I wonder if they sell any..


Whoa!
~~
Sooz
-------
"Those in the cheaper seats clap. The rest of you rattle your jewelry." John
Lennon (1940 - 1980) Royal Varieties Performance
~ Dr. Sooz's Bead Links
http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html
Ads
  #42  
Old February 11th 04, 05:23 PM
DreamBeadr
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I also think that they need to consider that their
liberation front may not change the market to what they want to change it
to, because that just isn't the way it works on ebay.


Well, its pretty much not the way it works anywhere...except for maybe the
dollar stores.
Where you certainly get what you pay for. ;o)

While the group *is* trying
to get people to not post 99 cent auctions


And this was another point that I didn't quite understand. Who cares what the
starting bid is? Its an auction. That is (or was) the whole point of the
place.
Live auctions work under the same premise. The auctioneer will attempt to
start the bidding at the least possible amount they feel is fair for the item,
if that doesn't work, they keep lowering the opening bid. This tactic is not
there to devalue the item. It is there to incite bids.
The more bids, the more percieved interest, the more interest, the more bids.
We remain a simple minded species. ;o)
Plus there are usually shills in the crowd to avoid a loss.
If you are not confident in the fact that your item will sell for what you
perceive its value to be on an auction site, then maybe you shouldn't be using
that medium as a sales tool.
I truely do understand that it is all good intent behind their concept. But
there remains a few flaws that will keep it from becoming the idea they are
after.

Here's what I posted there earlier today.


Oh, very well said Kandice. And I fear the lack of replies are again because
we tend to be a simple species. It is always easier to go with the crowd
instead of against them. Most all of us desire approval and praise as opposed
to confrontation or silence.
I, for one, agree with your comments and commend you for speaking your opinion.

I also wish everyone good sales and validation in their worth.

Beki
http://www.whimbeads.com
  #43  
Old February 11th 04, 05:33 PM
DreamBeadr
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Well, it makes sense...however, art is completely subjective. There are no
two beads exactly alike, so it's harder to price fix.


In addition, if you translate this concept into another area in the beading
world, it also does not make sense.
If you have a stay at home Mom with 3 kids beading an amulet bag in her "spare"
time. Like between diaper changes, bottle washing, soccer practice, a few
minutes of catching your favorite soap, making dinner, baths and bedtime, does
her work represent the same value as a beadworker who devotes a full 8 hours of
his or her day to creating?

The answer to that question for me is which of the two above mentioned beaders
is the more skilled? Who produces the higher quality product? Who has the
better artistic treatment of the item?
Who pays more attention to the craftsmanship and detail to assure the item they
are creating will last a lifetime?
Which of the two has taken the time to locate their true market?


Beki
http://www.whimbeads.com
  #44  
Old February 11th 04, 06:35 PM
roxan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

But the big question are they selling any of their work? If they are then
they are not over priced if not then they are. My bet is they are over
priced.
Roxan
"Christina Peterson" wrote in message
news:1076481474.404995@prawn...
Here's jewelry offerred by a beadmaker.
http://www.blackberrybeads.com/Finis...Necklaces.html
Considering the prices for these items, I guess I should be charging $250
for wholesale.

I'm not picking on anyone. I'm just trying to get a feel for this.

Tina



"KDK" wrote in message
...
Nope. I had marked your other post as unread so I could reply to it. I
totally agree that what I'm going to do with the bead(s) plays a part in

how
much I feel I can pay. I'll pay more for a bead for me than one that

I'm
going to put into a piece to try and sell.

I also look at the size of the sets - I tend to not use an entire set in

any
piece I make. So I may see a large set that I love, but can't see

being
able to make enough pieces out of it (repetition gets old for me) so I

may
not buy or bid.

And I'm watching this thread here and at WC since I'm just getting

started
selling finished pieces and hopefully, when I think my beads are ready,

to
sell beads also.

Kathy K

"Christina Peterson" wrote in message
news:1076469073.78773@prawn...
Am I the only person who works with lampwork beads who faces this

problem?

Tina


"Christina Peterson" wrote in message
news:1076446594.244893@prawn...
One really big thing about pricing beads is how they will be used.

If I'm only going to buy beads for myself, as an end product, then

paying
retail is a reasonable thing for me to to for those few beads. But

if
I'm
going to put them in jewelry to sell I have to work it differently.

Take the cottage rose flowers and bunny sets for $200. What could a
necklace of those beads be sold for? According to most formulas, I

should
double the price of my materials and add in my time at $40 per hour

(for
the
amount of time a fast professional would take to make it), to come

up
with
wholesale and double that for a retail price. So theoretically, it

should
sell for At the very very least $900. More if it is especially well
designed.

OK then do it backwards. If a necklace of those beads could be sold

for
$500, and I am selling my skills as an artist, not as a retailer, I

would
only get $250 wholesale, which would barely cover my costs to make

the
necklace and get it to the gallery.

Now, I don't think THAT is reasonable.

I'm finding that when I make jewelry from a set of lampwork, my mark

up
on
materials is very small, and I can't make more than a profit of $20

or
$30
on a necklace that will sell at the gallery for $150 to $200.

Tina


"meijhana" wrote in message
...
I was impressed by this, and wanted to share!!!


http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show...73#post2015373

I think we should adopt it as jewelry designers, too (and that

means
you,
too, Harry, both as a jewelry designer and as a supplies crafter).

Too
many
times do we hear "I just want to get my money back", and with

this,
I
think
we can start to educate others, both as buyer and as fellow

seller.

Mary


--
Mr. Winky says "Glass shards are beautiful, but they can be

painful." --
www.shardsoglass.com
================
MeijhanaDesigns - Unique Earrings and More!
http://www.meijhanadesigns.com
mary at meijhanadesigns dot com

HandcraftedJewelry.com
http://snipurl.com/45w5
check out my store!











  #45  
Old February 11th 04, 06:38 PM
roxan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

This is where you have to educate your costumer about how they are made and
that they are a work of art. Just show them the difference between a cheap
Indian bead and good lampwork bead and they will learn to appreciate the
art.
Roxan
"Kathy N-V" wrote in message
. giganews.com...
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 22:11:13 -0500, Christina Peterson wrote
(in message 1076469073.78773@prawn):

Am I the only person who works with lampwork beads who faces this

problem?

I don't sell things, so it isn't as big an issue for me. But I rarely

give
away pieces with lampworked beads. People just don't appreciate them.

They
might comment on how pretty they are, and where they might get one; but

when
I tell them that they're unique, handmade and can go from $10 on up

apiece.
(I know that's a lousy guesstimate, bear with me) Invariably, the person
says "Ten Bucks! for one bead! Kathy, you're nuts!"

Yep, I am nuts, but I honestly believe that I haven't overpaid for the

works
of art I treasure. Until I find people who see what I see in those beads,
I'm keeping all my lampwork for my own bad self.

Kathy N-V



  #46  
Old February 11th 04, 06:40 PM
Dr. Sooz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Wow, Beki -- rock on! You are absolutely dead-on.

Wow, I have so many issues I could bring up about this concept. =o)

First, I would like to comment that I am offended when people use the term
Nazi
lightly. There is nothing even remotely similar to lampworkers and a Nazi.

Second, while I feel the concept of people placing a personal value on their
own work is a good one, determining an industry standard, just because you
happen to produce a product within a certain category, just won't work.
That would be like asking all beadweavers to charge at least X amount of
dollars per hour for their work. Their lives may be so busy that their
hourly
worth is tremendous, but they may not yet have all the skills to produce a
quality piece of beadwork.

Third, I have been involved in the beading world for over 30 years now. I
started creating simple beaded pieces with my Grandmother at age 8. By age
12,
I was selling simple beaded jewelry to friends, at the beach and at small
craft shows. By 18 I was selling beads. By 25 I had an established retail
store.
While I am not the most experienced person in this industry, I am very
experienced. I have made it my life to learn as much about beads in all
their
forms as I can. Along with that self-education comes a bit of understanding
on
how the market (as it relates to beads and beading) works.
There will always be the person who feels they need to "undercut" the next
guy
to stand out. There will always be the person who feels the "value" of their
time is worth more than the average market will bear. There will always be
the
person who understands their worth, and is willing to work with the market
demand to find that happy medium.

That being said, there is such a tremendous influx of lampworkers at this
time,
that the market will be thin. This is the progression of any industry. As
the
market thins, your competition increases.
You can compensate for that by looking within ones self and determining what
it
is you as an individual can do to change.
You can use your competition to better yourself. (which, I feel, is what
should always be done) This same set of standard rules of business apply to
any field. Beadmakers, beadsellers, beaders, etc.
Your service, your reputation, your style, your adaptability, your personal
input into the industry, all of these things are what can help set you apart
from your competition. This is what will raise the value of what you have to
offer. Not what others choose to sell for.
The value of the beads I sell are in direct relation to their quality, my
service, my reputation, and the volume I sell them in.
They are not, nor will they ever be, in relation to what others sell theirs
for.
I do however, work under a standard industry guideline. I do not
intentionally
undercut others and I do not overprice.
Were I to make my own beads for sale, I would again follow along those same
guidelines. I would understand what the market can bear, I would learn where
and who my customers are, and I would supply them with what they want at the
prices they demand. If I were really lucky, I would be some of the very few
who know how to escalate themselves to the top of that imaginary list of the
best of the best.. =o)
If the online auction places are not bringing you the dollar amount you feel
you deserve, then find the location that will.
It works better to locate your customers rather than try to force yourself
upon
them.

While the entire bead industry can and should be viewed as one big family, it
is the individuals within that family that make it what it is.

A think a revolution to help others learn to value themselves as artists,
craftspeople, creators, sellers, business people, etc would garner much more
worth.

Beki
http://www.whimbeads.com



~~
Sooz
-------
"Those in the cheaper seats clap. The rest of you rattle your jewelry." John
Lennon (1940 - 1980) Royal Varieties Performance
~ Dr. Sooz's Bead Links
http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html
  #47  
Old February 11th 04, 06:51 PM
roxan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Beki, so well put. Thanks for a good post.
Roxan
"DreamBeadr" wrote in message
...
Wow, I have so many issues I could bring up about this concept. =o)

First, I would like to comment that I am offended when people use the term

Nazi
lightly. There is nothing even remotely similar to lampworkers and a

Nazi.

Second, while I feel the concept of people placing a personal value on

their
own work is a good one, determining an industry standard, just because you
happen to produce a product within a certain category, just won't work.
That would be like asking all beadweavers to charge at least X amount of
dollars per hour for their work. Their lives may be so busy that their

hourly
worth is tremendous, but they may not yet have all the skills to produce a
quality piece of beadwork.

Third, I have been involved in the beading world for over 30 years now. I
started creating simple beaded pieces with my Grandmother at age 8. By

age 12,
I was selling simple beaded jewelry to friends, at the beach and at small
craft shows. By 18 I was selling beads. By 25 I had an established

retail
store.
While I am not the most experienced person in this industry, I am very
experienced. I have made it my life to learn as much about beads in all

their
forms as I can. Along with that self-education comes a bit of

understanding on
how the market (as it relates to beads and beading) works.
There will always be the person who feels they need to "undercut" the next

guy
to stand out. There will always be the person who feels the "value" of

their
time is worth more than the average market will bear. There will always

be the
person who understands their worth, and is willing to work with the market
demand to find that happy medium.

That being said, there is such a tremendous influx of lampworkers at this

time,
that the market will be thin. This is the progression of any industry.

As the
market thins, your competition increases.
You can compensate for that by looking within ones self and determining

what it
is you as an individual can do to change.
You can use your competition to better yourself. (which, I feel, is what
should always be done) This same set of standard rules of business apply

to
any field. Beadmakers, beadsellers, beaders, etc.
Your service, your reputation, your style, your adaptability, your

personal
input into the industry, all of these things are what can help set you

apart
from your competition. This is what will raise the value of what you have

to
offer. Not what others choose to sell for.
The value of the beads I sell are in direct relation to their quality, my
service, my reputation, and the volume I sell them in.
They are not, nor will they ever be, in relation to what others sell

theirs
for.
I do however, work under a standard industry guideline. I do not

intentionally
undercut others and I do not overprice.
Were I to make my own beads for sale, I would again follow along those

same
guidelines. I would understand what the market can bear, I would learn

where
and who my customers are, and I would supply them with what they want at

the
prices they demand. If I were really lucky, I would be some of the very

few
who know how to escalate themselves to the top of that imaginary list of

the
best of the best.. =o)
If the online auction places are not bringing you the dollar amount you

feel
you deserve, then find the location that will.
It works better to locate your customers rather than try to force yourself

upon
them.

While the entire bead industry can and should be viewed as one big family,

it
is the individuals within that family that make it what it is.

A think a revolution to help others learn to value themselves as artists,
craftspeople, creators, sellers, business people, etc would garner much

more
worth.

Beki
http://www.whimbeads.com


  #48  
Old February 11th 04, 07:39 PM
Debbie B
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"This is where you have to educate your costumer about how they are made and
that they are a work of art. Just show them the difference between a cheap
Indian bead and good lampwork bead and they will learn to appreciate the
art.
Roxan"

This is correct. I am learning about beads and now know the difference
between cheap and quality. I am starting to collect the lampwork as I can
afford it. And like some of the others, I don't want to resell them. I
keep them and look at them (touch them) and some I'm making into stuff for
me. They are too beautiful to part with.


--
Debbie (New Mexico)
Life is too short


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.580 / Virus Database: 367 - Release Date: 2/6/2004


  #49  
Old February 11th 04, 07:43 PM
Karin Cernik
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Nope. :-)

I (so far) have only had two open houses, and done custom work. I've
used very little lampwork up until now, but am having the same problem.
I have a beautiful heart set that I paid $30 for on eBay. Well worth it
to me. But it makes the necklace made from them cost out at $150. Will
someone pay $150? Probably. But probably not in my market. So I won't
price it that high. I find that I adjust my price formula when it comes
out very high - I make far better profit margins on things like
earrings, and simple necklaces, than I do on things like fancy necklaces
and mother's bracelets. Since I am not trying to make a living doing
this, it's ok for me. I don't think I'm grossly undercutting others
either, just reacting to the realities of life in my market.


Karin



Christina Peterson wrote:

Am I the only person who works with lampwork beads who faces this problem?

Tina

"Christina Peterson" wrote in message
news:1076446594.244893@prawn...
One really big thing about pricing beads is how they will be used.

If I'm only going to buy beads for myself, as an end product, then paying
retail is a reasonable thing for me to to for those few beads. But if I'm
going to put them in jewelry to sell I have to work it differently.

Take the cottage rose flowers and bunny sets for $200. What could a
necklace of those beads be sold for? According to most formulas, I should
double the price of my materials and add in my time at $40 per hour (for

the
amount of time a fast professional would take to make it), to come up with
wholesale and double that for a retail price. So theoretically, it should
sell for At the very very least $900. More if it is especially well
designed.

OK then do it backwards. If a necklace of those beads could be sold for
$500, and I am selling my skills as an artist, not as a retailer, I would
only get $250 wholesale, which would barely cover my costs to make the
necklace and get it to the gallery.

Now, I don't think THAT is reasonable.

I'm finding that when I make jewelry from a set of lampwork, my mark up on
materials is very small, and I can't make more than a profit of $20 or $30
on a necklace that will sell at the gallery for $150 to $200.

Tina


"meijhana" wrote in message
...
I was impressed by this, and wanted to share!!!

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show...73#post2015373

I think we should adopt it as jewelry designers, too (and that means

you,
too, Harry, both as a jewelry designer and as a supplies crafter). Too

many
times do we hear "I just want to get my money back", and with this, I

think
we can start to educate others, both as buyer and as fellow seller.

Mary


--
Mr. Winky says "Glass shards are beautiful, but they can be painful." --
www.shardsoglass.com
================
MeijhanaDesigns - Unique Earrings and More!
http://www.meijhanadesigns.com
mary at meijhanadesigns dot com

HandcraftedJewelry.com
http://snipurl.com/45w5
check out my store!




  #50  
Old February 11th 04, 08:03 PM
Dr. Sooz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

You and I have talked about this before, Kandice -- but I wanted to lend
support. I so agree with what you have said.

I think there are people who suffer a lot, emotionally, over why their auctions
aren't getting more bids (or any bids, in some cases). They cry about it in
pubic forums everywhere. I've looked at their beads, I've even bought their
beads (this is not any one person, mind you). I won't be back to buy more
beads from them. Why?

Because I was unhappy with the beads, and they have a lot of competition. So I
don't have to go back and waste my time buying their flawed product -- I can
just cross them off my list of sellers. Their holes were rough, or their beads
weren't balanced, or the colors weren't lovely. Whatever it was, their product
was not up to the market's professional standards, and I feel like I wasted my
money. Some of those beads actually ended up in my trash basket....but I
remember them well.

I don't have the $$ to burn that I'd need to purchase from these folks.
They've shown they have little respect for me -- why would they sell me
substandard beads otherwise? Bad experiences = no money in that beadmaker's
pocket. And I do tell my friends, so it ripples out.

If you, whoever the "you" might be, aren't getting the sales you want (unless
you're brand new at selling, of course), please, please examine your work. I
don't care how long you've been doing it. You may have developed bad habits.
You probably grew your craft when there was little competition if you've been
doing it a long time. If you're new, or an old salt, you need to polish
yourself to survive.

Times have changed. You need to become excellent if you want that pie in the
sky you moan about.

Here's what I posted there earlier today. I got several private messages
that were positive, but most people in the thread have not responded to what
I said.

""holding breath, jumping in

Okay. I wasn't going to post anything in this thread, but after reading it
all, I really want to now. I applaud the good intentions. I love Rita -
she's fabulous, as an artist and as a person.
However, I have a few issues with this Liberation Group, and I am going to
post my opinions about it, while still trying to honor the fact that this
whole idea is about empowering and respecting art.

Issue #1, which was brought up by someone else (thank goodness, otherwise I
would be too afraid to post my thoughts) - 99 cent auctions are not always
about perceived value. I have said this before and I will say it again - I
post 99 cent bead sets on ebay to reduce ebay fees, and because I have
confidence that my beads will get a good price. I have only been
disappointed once or twice. eBay is an auction house, *not* a retail outlet.
It's a game to many cusotmers. People do need to ba a little more lenient
about price, but I *do* understand the need to ask for prices you can
accept. That means when you list something, you need to be ready for what
the market decides to do with it. So admonishing people for listing at 99
cents or 9.99 or 99.99 or what have you, is really not something that I see
as good. A couple of artists have actually been named here in this thread,
and some have been alluded to. That's not fair.

Issue #2, which is a broad and multi-faceted issue - Everyone in this art
field needs to take a good long look at if and why they are not selling
their pieces for what they would like to. There's a whole huge range of
skill in this group. Some beadmakers / glass artists cannot command higher
prices due to a whole bunch of reasons that need to be addressed. You can't
just increase your prices, stand back and watch the money pour in. You need
to consider your buyers. You're not letting them in on this group action -
they will have no idea why you're doing what you're doing.
To raise prices, you also need to raise the bar where quality is concerned.
I am not just talking about the quality of the bead itself - I also mean the
quality of service, and the quality of the auctions themselves. Someone
posted guidelines on their web site and was torn to pieces on this forum,
even though she is a buyer who spends a lot of money on lampwork. Customers
need to be listened to. I know we all just want to make what we want and
have it sell, but the bottom line is that the market does not always work
exactly that way. There needs to be a blend of market research and artistic
expression. If pink is really in this season, that's going to be what sells
a lot. If you decide not to go with that flow, because you hate pink, that's
totally fine, but you need to keep that in mind when pink stuff is selling
for higher than your stuff. That's an over-simplified example, of course.
And you know, I see a LOT of people complaining about ebay. Yet, there are
successes on ebay *all the time* in the very categories we sell in. We all
need to look at that and figure out *why*. I am not saying to ask those
sellers for their secrets, or try and copy them. I am saying that we need to
focus on bettering ourselves as artists. People have success because they
make it. They pay their dues, work like dogs, have talent, and *make their
success*.
Stop complaining about ebay sucking. Start doing your homework and figuring
out why ebay sucks for you. It's not always a "slow time of year" there.

Issue #3 - ebay is not black and white. It's a grey whale, baby. There's no
"one way" to make it work. There's no one answer. There are hundreds, maybe
thousands, of lampworkers listing there. You may think this group is large,
here, but it's only a small fraction of the lampworkers listing on ebay.
Your group may not get the results you're looking for, so be prepared for
that.

Okay - I know I have been the person to post an opposing opinion on several
of these types of issues on this forum. If y'all want me to go away, just
let me know. I can handle that. But the many new threads about ebay being
crap, and complaining about not getting the prices you want for your beads
is getting really irksome to me. Maybe it's because I am not having the same
problems you all are. And you know what? No one ever asks me why. Does any
one care why?""

--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net




~~
Sooz
-------
"Those in the cheaper seats clap. The rest of you rattle your jewelry." John
Lennon (1940 - 1980) Royal Varieties Performance
~ Dr. Sooz's Bead Links
http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html
 




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