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#11
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"Terry" wrote in message ... "Chicmac" wrote in : As a newbie to jewellery, (Pre-newbie even since I have yet to make something), there are several questions regarding UK hallmarking. From the web it says all silver items 7.8 gm must be hallmarked if they are to be referred to as silver. But it is unclear about the following. 1) Does this refer only to the silver in the item? i.e. doesn't include gems or other material? 2) Does it refer only to the silver in the alloy used? 3) When they say 'referred to', do they mean you can sell bigger silver items unhallmarked if they are not referred to as silver? Also does 'referred to' mean with 'silver' stamped on the item somewhere or does it cover printed descriptions of unhallmarked items? That's not very clear. Let me give example. Can you sell silver items larger than 7.8gm if they are not hallmarked and can you otherwise still describe them as being silver? 4) Can you make unhallmarked items for personal use larger than 7.8 gm? It's only about selling it, and what you describe it as when you are selling it. If the piece is over 7.8 grams and it's not hallmarked, you are not allowed to sell it IF you describe it as "silver". You can still sell it though, you must not call it silver, you can call it "white metal". Same for gold (e.g. in UK shops, sales people are not allowed to describe their two-tone gold and steel watches as such, even if they are 18 carat, it has to be called "yellow metal") Regards, Terry. Thanks. I guess the fact I don't ever recall seeing the term 'white metal' means that folk either make things 7.8 gm or get it hallmarked in practice. BTW is this the main reason for 'hollow-wear'? I'd always assumed before that it was simply to save silver. regards chic |
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#12
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"William Black" wrote in message ... "Chicmac" wrote in message ... As a newbie to jewellery, (Pre-newbie even since I have yet to make something), there are several questions regarding UK hallmarking. From the web it says all silver items 7.8 gm must be hallmarked if they are to be referred to as silver. But it is unclear about the following. 1) Does this refer only to the silver in the item? i.e. doesn't include gems or other material? As a rule you don't send finished stuff to be hallmarked, you set the jems after hallmarking. The weight is the weight of metal. Duh. 2) Does it refer only to the silver in the alloy used? The metal's weight. It is marked sterling. Right so you cant get away with 8.4 gms for Sterling then. 3) When they say 'referred to', do they mean you can sell bigger silver items unhallmarked if they are not referred to as silver? Technically something over the minimum weight that is not hallmarked is called 'white metal'. Some hallmarks, such as those from Holland, are accepted in the UK, some others, such as Italian, are not. Also does 'referred to' mean with 'silver' stamped on the item somewhere or does it cover printed descriptions of unhallmarked items? Everything sold as 'silver' must be stamped. However you're allowed to stamp small items yourself, usually with a small stamp marked '.925' Must it be 'stamped' or can it be incorporated into the master at sculpt time? That's not very clear. Let me give example. Can you sell silver items larger than 7.8gm if they are not hallmarked and can you otherwise still describe them as being silver? No 4) Can you make unhallmarked items for personal use larger than 7.8 gm? Yes. I agree with you Terry BTW, hallmarking is just another stealth tax much beloved by UK Grabberments. Well the system is now about 400 years old and no serious problems with the system have yet been found. It is the oldest consumer protection system in the world still running. I should add that the solution is either to make more things or to send them via Cookson's who have a reasonabley priced hallmarking service. There used to be a Cookson's in Glasgow but they shut down, so I'd still have postage. What is the hallmarking service? Is that where they collect many items from various cllients to submit to the assay office in one parcel, thereby sharing the minimum cost overhead? If you send enough stuff you should get the price down to about 60p an item. Now are we still talking about Cookson's or the Assay office here? Bit academic for me at the moment though since it is definitely toe in the water stuff just now. regards chic |
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"Andy Parker" wrote in message ... Thank you for taking the time to reply. Strewth this has opened a whole can of worms! I am in the samre position as you Terry except I don't do work for other shops but the minimum charge per quality hurts. Interesting that it varies by Assay Office though - room for some discussion there perhaps. I have noticed that the minimum charge has doubled over the last 6 years or so. For one offs where it is feasible I have taken to using hallmarked shanks (Cookson charge about 3 UKP extra) and adding to it, butchering etc. but that isn't always possible, like the 18white engagement ring I just cast but I am lucky in that retailing direct I can factor in the cost of Assaying one item - I try and have some other pieces handy to include so it saves on postage at least. The Assay Ofiices are now, I think, completely autonomous and whilst it feels like a tax I think they are just covering costs plus investment etc. If the minimum charge has doubled in 6 years (while inflation has been very low) either they were making a huge loss or are now making a huge profit. OTOH that would be right in line with Labour's stealth tax policies elsewhere (e.g. fuel tax). I bet HMG are getting a cut somewhere. The hallmarked 'shanks'? Is that like little bar hallmarked that can be inset into a larger item? If so doesn't that defeat the whole purpose? Chic's questions:- 1) items submitted for Assay must be complete (pendants have bails, broches have pins etc.) but NOT gems set or other non-metallic components. What about things like bracelet ornaments?, I guess they would be allowed to be stamped 925 by the maker(if they are 7.8) even though the final item weighs a lot more. Also does this apply to pendants and chains, i.e the chain is a separate item from the chain? 2) For silver 7.8g refers to the alloy, presumably sterling although it is still possible to have Britannia silver (958.4) assayed. 3) This boils down to if you call it silver (stamped as such, labelled or just say it is) and it's over the 7.8 limit it has to be hallmarked or you break the law. This doesn't apply to private transactions, only those in the course of a trade or business, but if you make more than How are trade fairs regarded?. Someone mentioned that they might be the solution. Is it because they are regarded as private transactions? a few in a year then it will be deemed to be a business. What is a 'few'? So to be clear Can you sell silver items larger than 7.8gm if they are not hallmarked and can you otherwise still describe them as being silver? No. If it's over 7.8g and you sell it then it is 'white metal' - how good does that sound? About as good as 'Crystalline Carbon'. If you don't sell it you can do anything you like at any weight. Can a purchaser of unhallmarked silver themselves submit it to the assay office? It would make more logical sense if the seller issued something like an assay token which could then be used by the customer to have it assessed by them. That way he would know it wasn't a forgery. Present system seems to be like buying a house based on the sellers survey only. Despite all this, and the delay involved in sending items to the Assay Office - I can't visit like some, I staunchly defend our system. It gives an absolute gaurantee to the customer that the item is what it purports to be and the recent climb down by the EU who tried to rationalise our system out of existence was welcomed by me at least. Well being a total newbie, I don't have any of the 'traditions' baggage, so I guess I'm only looking at it in terms of: Is it necessary? Does it do what it claims? Is it efficient? Must confess I'm still struggling to see what it brings to the party that the Trades Description Act doesn't. Also since it is up to the seller to arrange, it can be forged. As for efficiency, it would appear to be yet another rapidly increasing, self perpetuating, bureacratic money mill. The stamping of an article by the maker without an independant test leaves the customer to decide how much they trust the maker, if they have any idea who that is. Yes, but exactly the same applies to everything else. Without hallmarking we would be open to competition from every fraudster and cheat going who could stamp a mark on any old crap. How many customers are going to get a private assay done? But fraudsters and cheats would just forge it anyway wouldn't they? I vividly remember getting my punches and stamping my first piece - still have it and am proud to be part of a system that is several hundred years old. I can understand that the tradition is respected and even that it can add aesthetic value to the object, but won't the new EU system where you only stamp it 925 etc, remove a lot of that anyway? regards chic |
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"vj" wrote in message ... vj found this in rec.crafts.jewelry, from Terry : ]The person I spoke to at Sheffield told me that the Assay Master decides on ]the pricing, but didn't give me any other details. now THAT is insane! at the very least, if the requirement is set by law, and the office is run by the government, the prices should all be the same! I don't think that The Assay Office isn't part of the government Civil Service set-up, it's part of the Crown and its employees are 'Crown Servants'. Like the Tower of London and HM Customs and Excise and MI-6 and Westminster Abbey and various other bits of our arcane system that existed before the idea of a separate government from the Crown... -- William Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe Barbeques on fire by chalets past the headland I've watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off Newborough All this will pass like ice-cream on the beach Time for tea |
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Ted Frater wrote in
: Ive done this for 35 years and done everything I wanted as a metal worker.as well as raised a family, Hope this helps. the buck stops with you so go for it. Ted Frater Hi Ted, I didn't mean to give the impression that I'm new to jewellery work, because as a coincidence, I also started 35 years ago! In fact I registered my first maker's mark at Sheffield in 1969. As a designer maker, together with my wife who also works with me, we've managed to make a living at it, and still do. In 1970, we opened a shop in Marbella, Spain, where we made jewellery, metal sculpture, and leather belts with "sculptured" brass buckles. In those days Marbella was one of the "in" places for the jet set.(we had quite a few celebrities who became clients, various rock band members such as Led Zepp or film stars Micheal Caine, Joan Collins, to name a few) We made good money there and had a good time, but we wanted to move, so we sold the shop at a good profit and came back to the UK. In the UK we were probably busiest in the mid 1970's, doing various types of jewellery including each week hundreds of wire rings, all going through the Assay Office, even though many of the silver ones were under the weight that required hallmarking. I remember the Queen Elizabeth Silver Jubilee of 1977, everybody was going crazy for the 1-ounce Ingots with the very large "spread" hallmarks used as the main design feature. The Assay Office made (and paid for) special oversized "composite" punches incorporating the maker's mark together with the hallmarks. This was for greater efficiency, as the volume of work was so big. It also insured that all the marks were neatly in line with each other. Since then I've also got a workshop here in France. We've done literally hundreds of fairs, markets, street-selling, wholesale, retail, exhibitions, you name it! Now though, I am only working on a part-time basis. It's true that it is still possible to make money, but it's certainly not what it used to be, partly because of the glut of very cheap stuff from countries where labour costs are a tiny fraction of the UK's. I think there must be a lot of young designer/makers who have problems making enough to pay their own wages - I know some have to rely on finacial help from their parents. Regards, Terry |
#16
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Terry wrote:
Ted Frater wrote in : Ive done this for 35 years and done everything I wanted as a metal worker.as well as raised a family, Hope this helps. the buck stops with you so go for it. Ted Frater Hi Ted, I didn't mean to give the impression that I'm new to jewellery work, because as a coincidence, I also started 35 years ago! In fact I registered my first maker's mark at Sheffield in 1969. As a designer maker, together with my wife who also works with me, we've managed to make a living at it, and still do. In 1970, we opened a shop in Marbella, Spain, where we made jewellery, metal sculpture, and leather belts with "sculptured" brass buckles. In those days Marbella was one of the "in" places for the jet set.(we had quite a few celebrities who became clients, various rock band members such as Led Zepp or film stars Micheal Caine, Joan Collins, to name a few) We made good money there and had a good time, but we wanted to move, so we sold the shop at a good profit and came back to the UK. In the UK we were probably busiest in the mid 1970's, doing various types of jewellery including each week hundreds of wire rings, all going through the Assay Office, even though many of the silver ones were under the weight that required hallmarking. I remember the Queen Elizabeth Silver Jubilee of 1977, everybody was going crazy for the 1-ounce Ingots with the very large "spread" hallmarks used as the main design feature. The Assay Office made (and paid for) special oversized "composite" punches incorporating the maker's mark together with the hallmarks. This was for greater efficiency, as the volume of work was so big. It also insured that all the marks were neatly in line with each other. Since then I've also got a workshop here in France. We've done literally hundreds of fairs, markets, street-selling, wholesale, retail, exhibitions, you name it! Now though, I am only working on a part-time basis. It's true that it is still possible to make money, but it's certainly not what it used to be, partly because of the glut of very cheap stuff from countries where labour costs are a tiny fraction of the UK's. I think there must be a lot of young designer/makers who have problems making enough to pay their own wages - I know some have to rely on finacial help from their parents. Regards, Terry Yes, I did get the impression that you were new to this trade. Apologies for this misunderstanding. I just hate to see someone struggling just for tha lack of some knowhow, wethwer its making techniques or the other essential , getting a fair reward for ones efforts. I registered my marks at the London assay office about the same time 1968/69, cant recall, and started out getting the local craft shops interested in my work, regrettably they wanted it on sale or return , not cost effective even then, so a friend suggested I have a 3ft sq area of his stall in the Portobello Rd in London in the summer of 1968. On my 1st day ! took £40.00, and have sold mainly retail ever since then. London is a 240 mile return trip so to make it pay id sleep in the car overnite and then do the Bayswater Rd Street art fair the next day. there I had a 4ft by 4ft area of railings. Did that every weekend rain or shine for 7 years. Got somewhat tired of the driving so started a a Saturday market locally at Lymington. that replaced the London venues and improved the takings as well. Early in the 1980's the larger dedicated craft fairs were growing and I did my first big fair for 4 days.At Glastonbury. This was a big improvement as I then had a working area where I actually made stuff as well as sold . Needless to say I then had to have help. then in 1984 I did the ist top end show Art In Action with a fully integrated exhibition marquee I purpose built . this needed a 7.5 ton truck plus living caravan to operate. As Id be away a week at a time 6 times a year. Making stock the rest of the time. I then started to make larger pieces , mainly hollow ware , with dishes and salvers up to 2 ft across in most metals. the silver ones weighed over 5 kgs. Well worth hall marking. There I was seen by a craft organiser from Germany who sponsored me to his show in 1990. In 1987 I had the rare opportunity to buy up an old silversmiths workshopthat was a complete jewelley drop stampers setup dating from 1851. The rest is history. I made the drop stamp fully transportable so this was working throughout Europe in the 1990's as well as in the Uk making commemorative medals and plaques at events for events. This was the most rewarding in terms of job satisfaction asc well as financial return. The real buzz is getting comissions for projects , doing the die design and pulling it all together. Once the dies are made then one can proceed with the production. this can sometimes run into the thousands any one design. The main drop hammer is my Hazelwood and Dent Birmingham from 1880. A very accurate machine . Its good enough to make proof coinage thereon. Thouble is a £1.00 coin costs £2.00 to make. Not cost effective. Best wishes to everyone. Ted Frater Dorset UK. |
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Ted Frater wrote in
: Yes, I did get the impression that you were new to this trade. Apologies for this misunderstanding. I just hate to see someone struggling just for tha lack of some knowhow, wethwer its making techniques or the other essential , getting a fair reward for ones efforts. I registered my marks at the London assay office about the same time 1968/69, cant recall, and started out getting the local craft shops interested in my work, regrettably they wanted it on sale or return , not cost effective even then, so a friend suggested I have a 3ft sq area of his stall in the Portobello Rd in London in the summer of 1968. On my 1st day ! took £40.00, and have sold mainly retail ever since then. London is a 240 mile return trip so to make it pay id sleep in the car overnite and then do the Bayswater Rd Street art fair the next day. there I had a 4ft by 4ft area of railings. Did that every weekend rain or shine for 7 years. Got somewhat tired of the driving so started a a Saturday market locally at Lymington. that replaced the London venues and improved the takings as well. Early in the 1980's the larger dedicated craft fairs were growing and I did my first big fair for 4 days.At Glastonbury. This was a big improvement as I then had a working area where I actually made stuff as well as sold . Needless to say I then had to have help. then in 1984 I did the ist top end show Art In Action with a fully integrated exhibition marquee I purpose built . this needed a 7.5 ton truck plus living caravan to operate. As Id be away a week at a time 6 times a year. Making stock the rest of the time. I then started to make larger pieces , mainly hollow ware , with dishes and salvers up to 2 ft across in most metals. the silver ones weighed over 5 kgs. Well worth hall marking. There I was seen by a craft organiser from Germany who sponsored me to his show in 1990. In 1987 I had the rare opportunity to buy up an old silversmiths workshopthat was a complete jewelley drop stampers setup dating from 1851. The rest is history. I made the drop stamp fully transportable so this was working throughout Europe in the 1990's as well as in the Uk making commemorative medals and plaques at events for events. This was the most rewarding in terms of job satisfaction asc well as financial return. The real buzz is getting comissions for projects , doing the die design and pulling it all together. Once the dies are made then one can proceed with the production. this can sometimes run into the thousands any one design. Hi Ted, Thanks for posting these very interesting details. It's always good to hear from people like you who probably not only enjoy what they are doing, but also have a "feel" for the processes involved. I love those manufacturing processes such as drop-hammer forging, coining, press work and so on. It's probably something to do with me being brought up in an industrial area (near Sheffield). I have memories as a child in bed at night, I could hear the rather ghostly bump sound of a distant steam-hammer. They were working the night shift, forging steel ingots. Never did get a drop-hammer, but several fly-presses, and I also have a small inertia-wheel press. I like to make my own forming and embossing tools and blanking dies, e.g. for cutting out small motifs from sheet metal, and I much prefer these sort of processes to casting. The main drop hammer is my Hazelwood and Dent Birmingham from 1880. A very accurate machine . Its good enough to make proof coinage thereon. Thouble is a £1.00 coin costs £2.00 to make. Not cost effective. Best wishes to everyone. Ted Frater Dorset UK. Amusingly, there is a law here in France which says you have to inform the authorities if you possess a press capable of pressing 5 tons or more! Must be something to do with making coins! although they'd have to be very small coins for only 5 tons! Regards, Terry |
#18
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greens can be used with many vegetables;
green beans work especially well. Meat is not necessary every day, don?t be afraid to alter any dish to vegetarian tastes. 1 premature baby, born dead Large bunch of mustard greens 2 white onions, 1 cup chopped celery Vegetable oil (or hog fat) Salt, pepper, garlic, etc. Lightly brown onions, celery, garlic and meat in large heavy pot. Add a little water and the greens (which should be thoroughly cleaned and washed). Smother slowly for at least 2 hours, adding small amounts of water when it starts to stick. Stir frequently. When ready - serve with rice, grilled smoked sausage, green salad, and iced tea. Coffee and apple pie then brandy. Maternity Ward Pot Luck Dinner If you can?t get anything fresh from the hospital, nursery, or morgue; you can at least get rid of all the leftovers in your refrigerator. 1 - 2 lbs. cubed meat (human flesh, chicken, turkey, beef...) 1 -2 lbs. coarsely chopped vegetables (carrots, potatoes, turnips, cauliflower, cabbage...) Bell pepper onions garlic ginger salt pepper, etc. Olive oil butter Brown the meat and some chopped onions, peppers, and garilic in olive oil, place in baking dish, layer with vegetables seasoning and butter. Bake at 325° for 30 - 45 minutes. Serve with hot dinner rolls, fruit salad and sparkling water. Bébé Buffet 1 Show off with whole roasted children replete with apples in mouths - and babies? heads stuffed with wild rice. Or keep it simple with a hearty main course such as stew, lasagna, or meat loaf. Some suggestions Pre-mie pot pies, beef stew, leg of lamb, stuffed chicken, roast pork spiral ham, Cranberry pineapple salad, sweet potatoes in butter, vegetable platter, tossed salad with tomato and avocado, parsley new potatoes, spinich cucumber salad, fruit salad Bran muffin |
#19
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to cook
it to perfection! 1 high quality limb, rack, or roast Potatoes, carrot Oil celery onions green onions parsley garlic salt, pepper, etc 2 cups beef stock Marinate meat (optional, not necessary with better cuts). Season liberally and lace with garlic cloves by making incisions, and placing whole cloves deep into the meat. Grease a baking pan, and fill with a thick bed of onions, celery, green onions, and parsley. Place roast on top with fat side up. Place uncovered in 500° oven for 20 minutes, reduce oven to 325°. Bake till medium rare (150°) and let roast rest. Pour stock over onions and drippings, carve the meat and place the slices in the au jus. Bisque à l?Enfant Honor the memory of Grandma with this dish by utilizing her good silver soup tureen and her great grandchildren (crawfish, crab or lobster will work just as well, however this dish is classically made with crawfish). Stuffed infant heads, stuffed crawfish heads, stuffed crab or lobster shells; make patties if shell or head is not available (such as with packaged crawfish, crab, or headless baby). Flour oil onions bell peppers garlic salt, pepper, etc. 3 cups chicken stock 2 sticks butter 3 tablespoons oil First stuff the heads, or make the patties (see index) th |
#20
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1 tiny human, cut into pieces
2 cups flour Onion, garlic Salt pepper garlic powder cayenne pepper hot sauce, etc. Oil for frying Mix milk, eggs, hot sauce in a bowl, add chopped onion and garlic. Season the meat liberally, and marinate for several hours. Place seasoned flour in a paper or plastic shopping bag, drop pieces in a few a time, shake to coat thoroughly, then deep fry in hot oil (350°) for about 15 minutes. Drain and place on paper towels. Miscarriage with Mustard Greens Why waste it? Otherwise, and in general, use ham or salt pork to season greens. The technique of smothering greens can be used with many vegetables; green beans work especially well. Meat is not necessary every day, don?t be afraid to alter any dish to vegetarian tastes. 1 premature baby, born dead Large bunch of mustard greens 2 white onions, 1 cup chopped celery Vegetable oil (or hog fat) Salt, pepper, garlic, etc. Lightly brown onions, celery, garlic and meat in large heavy pot. Add a little water and the greens (which should be thoroughly cleaned and washed). Smother slowly for at least 2 hours, adding small amounts of water when it starts to stick. Stir frequently. When ready - serve with rice, grilled smoked sausage, green salad, and iced tea. Coffee and apple pie then brandy. Maternity Ward Pot Luck Dinner If you can?t get anything fresh from the hospital, nursery, or morgue; you can at least get rid of all the leftovers in your refrigerator. 1 - 2 lbs. cubed meat (human flesh, chicken, turkey, beef...) 1 -2 lbs. coa |
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