OT Lest anyone see me as harsh

I want to explain something. I know I don't need to, but I need to. I need to
ask some things too.

I have a bad reaction to people coming here and asking us to do their legwork
for them, and displaying other bad manners. By that I don't mean someone like
Pam, who asks what we think about stringing material. She's not asking so she
can have us do her work for her. She wants to buy an item, and not spend a
month's salary trying bad choices -- and worse. She knows most of us use
stringing material daily.

I object to people who've only made a couple of quick pieces and come here
asking us where they should sell them; then they get all pushed out of shape
when we give them answers they don't want. They aren't ready to go into
business yet. I remember people like this when I had my stamp company --
they'd have been stamping 3 months, and they wanted someone to give them a
course in stampmaking, so they wouldn't have to pound the pavements doing their
own investigating.

Pam, for instance, is ready to use stringing material -- and we can easily help
her without feeling (or being) used.

I know, I don't have to answer anyone if I don't want to. I realize that.
Bear with me, okay?

Some here were quick to dis me when I reacted with disapproval when Mary asked
where she should sell stuff (despite the fact that she'd made only 4 pieces of
jewelry so far). I have to take exception to this -- I feel her post was
evident of bad manners long before my reaction was. Yet I was condemned for
not taking a more saintly attitude toward her needs.

If we were a NG full of men, she'd have asked where to sell her stuff and they
would've hooted her off the NG -- "Are you insane? You're not ready!" or "Sheez
-- find out yourself!" I finally got testy after she asked a few more
questions, and I was lambasted by several members of RCB. Excuse me?

No one here is my mother. I have a right to my own feelings, and I can express
them if I feel I must (you don't have to read it). Why was everyone turning
themselves inside out explaining my posts to this person we don't even know?
Why do we do acrobatics trying to be so damn nice to every single person who
shows up here? Why? Do we need to be loved by everyone? Are we so afraid of
being less than Perfect Hostesses? And why is that?

I've seen no evidence that everyone who comes here needs to be welcomed with
open arms, especially if they're the millionth person here to ask Mary's
question, and be as totally inexperienced as Mary was/is. If you want to take
care of these newbies who have bad manners, please, do. Do it. But don't ask
me to pretend I'm helping too.

There are newbies, and there are newbies. I love most newbies -- I thought
Mary acted badly right out of the chute. We treated her exactly like we treat
even the best people who show up here, and I don't think she warranted it --
but that's okay, your actions are your own. I just think mine should've been
clearly *my* own, as well.

Why jump through hoops making sure someone with a bad attitude still wants to
stay here on RCB? Why does someone have to be as egregiously nasty as Pnats in
order for us to stop kissing her feet? (And even then, some of us were laying
the lace on the tea tray and warming the kettle -- even after she'd hit us with
two troll attacks.)

I don't understand the need to be saintly in our acceptance of every single
representative of humankind who shows up at this doorstep. I just don't.
Anyone and everyone can come here, but if they behave badly, I see no reason to
kiss the hem of her garment. If you can explain this to me in a convincing
manner, I will send you a pound of See's Candy -- of your choice. I am
serious. (One person only.)
~~
Sooz
-------
"Those in the cheaper seats clap. The rest of you rattle your jewelry." John
Lennon (1940 - 1980) Royal Varieties Performance
~ Dr. Sooz's Bead Links
http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html

Hmmmm, seems like you hit the nail on the head! a little info and help is
fine! but having others do all your work is just insane. I still have a
simple way to get the info I want about making beads, I want to kidnap
tink,sooz, Kandice, Nisha... mind you not for long.... just long enough to
pick their minds for making all that beautiful glass!! DROOL!.... OH and
if is was all guys... I am sure there would have been alot of very colorfull
4 letter words!


Jim Redden
J.Redden Design



P.S. over 4 years at the torch, and with my glass goddess Shelly Carder, I
still feel like a rank amature when I see the beads you people make!
"Dr. Sooz" wrote in message
...
I want to explain something. I know I don't need to, but I need to. I
need to
ask some things too.

I have a bad reaction to people coming here and asking us to do their
legwork
for them, and displaying other bad manners. By that I don't mean someone
like
Pam, who asks what we think about stringing material. She's not asking so
she
can have us do her work for her. She wants to buy an item, and not spend
a
month's salary trying bad choices -- and worse. She knows most of us use
stringing material daily.

I object to people who've only made a couple of quick pieces and come here
asking us where they should sell them; then they get all pushed out of
shape
when we give them answers they don't want. They aren't ready to go into
business yet. I remember people like this when I had my stamp company --
they'd have been stamping 3 months, and they wanted someone to give them a
course in stampmaking, so they wouldn't have to pound the pavements doing
their
own investigating.

Pam, for instance, is ready to use stringing material -- and we can easily
help
her without feeling (or being) used.

I know, I don't have to answer anyone if I don't want to. I realize that.
Bear with me, okay?

Some here were quick to dis me when I reacted with disapproval when Mary
asked
where she should sell stuff (despite the fact that she'd made only 4
pieces of
jewelry so far). I have to take exception to this -- I feel her post was
evident of bad manners long before my reaction was. Yet I was condemned
for
not taking a more saintly attitude toward her needs.

If we were a NG full of men, she'd have asked where to sell her stuff and
they
would've hooted her off the NG -- "Are you insane? You're not ready!" or
"Sheez
-- find out yourself!" I finally got testy after she asked a few more
questions, and I was lambasted by several members of RCB. Excuse me?

No one here is my mother. I have a right to my own feelings, and I can
express
them if I feel I must (you don't have to read it). Why was everyone
turning
themselves inside out explaining my posts to this person we don't even
know?
Why do we do acrobatics trying to be so damn nice to every single person
who
shows up here? Why? Do we need to be loved by everyone? Are we so
afraid of
being less than Perfect Hostesses? And why is that?

I've seen no evidence that everyone who comes here needs to be welcomed
with
open arms, especially if they're the millionth person here to ask Mary's
question, and be as totally inexperienced as Mary was/is. If you want to
take
care of these newbies who have bad manners, please, do. Do it. But don't
ask
me to pretend I'm helping too.

There are newbies, and there are newbies. I love most newbies -- I
thought
Mary acted badly right out of the chute. We treated her exactly like we
treat
even the best people who show up here, and I don't think she warranted
it --
but that's okay, your actions are your own. I just think mine should've
been
clearly *my* own, as well.

Why jump through hoops making sure someone with a bad attitude still wants
to
stay here on RCB? Why does someone have to be as egregiously nasty as
Pnats in
order for us to stop kissing her feet? (And even then, some of us were
laying
the lace on the tea tray and warming the kettle -- even after she'd hit us
with
two troll attacks.)

I don't understand the need to be saintly in our acceptance of every
single
representative of humankind who shows up at this doorstep. I just don't.
Anyone and everyone can come here, but if they behave badly, I see no
reason to
kiss the hem of her garment. If you can explain this to me in a
convincing
manner, I will send you a pound of See's Candy -- of your choice. I am
serious. (One person only.)
~~
Sooz
-------
"Those in the cheaper seats clap. The rest of you rattle your jewelry."
John
Lennon (1940 - 1980) Royal Varieties Performance
~ Dr. Sooz's Bead Links
http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html

I think on many levels you have points.
Many newsgroups have a FAQ list. Perhaps it is time for one here?

--
There are no mistakes, only unexplored techniques

"Dr. Sooz" wrote in message
...
I want to explain something. I know I don't need to, but I need to. I
need to
ask some things too.

snip

da*n sooz, i was gonna agree with you, but now i've gotta go out for
that candy....

just kidding.

i only hope i am not one of the ones who upset you... i didnt read
her post, i have no idea who she is or what happened... but i know
the dilema of which you speak and seen it, frankly, all over the
internet.... good people want to be good, and its hard to say, 'look,
you're not good, and i dont have to be good to you.' i think your
words are true, and you should have the right to say 'i dont like you'
if you want. after all, it takes it all types.

i have many times been the person on the side of 'no no lets just be
nice to them they need gentle kindness and not harsh words, be gentle
be gentle.' i have found myself to be both correct and incorrect in
this. i have also been on the side of 'get out of here you are a
troll' and been both correct and incorrect. like i said, it takes all
types. human interaction is just so f*ing complicated. thats why i
rarely leave the house...

ok, drifting. best to you sooz. i support you in your decisions and
i support the freedom to criticize. i dont mean that sarcastically at
all. god knows we could all use some criticism. and if we were all
more honest, maybe we would all be healthier.

i had a very bad night last night, i am in a weird mood, i'm gonna go
tell everyone all about it.

alia

"MBryt1" wrote And even then, some of us were laying
the lace on the tea tray and warming the kettle -- even after she'd hit
us
with two troll attacks

Troll attacks? Exactly what do you mean by that???


Nothing to do with you.

Tina

Okay. I am probably not going to be popular for saying this, but I agree.
With all of it.
Most of the time, I am a really nice person. I do tend to bend over
backwards to make people feel welcome and to encourage creativity and art.
Especially here.
However.
Sometimes, when people post, I get annoyed. I always try and deal with my
annoyance in a polite way. Sometimes that doesn't happen. We are all
human. We can't expect this newsgroup to always be all nice and sweet.
Sometimes people have differences of opinion. I don't think it's fair for
people to expect other people to be sweet and nice all the time, especially
when we feel used up. I know I get that used up feeling sometimes.
I honestly wish people would do a little of their own homework before coming
here (or anywhere else) and asking for a quick fix, an easy way, a simple
two step miracle to success in whatever. That's just, as Sooz says, Bad
Manners.
Asking a specific question or five is one thing. Asking where to sell
beadwork after only making a few things is just really aggravating.
I am sure not everyone will agree with me on that point. I am sure there
are some people who absolutely don't mind this. And that is totally okay
with me. But for me, I want people to understand that this selling beadwork
(and beads) is hard work. There is no easy way out, no quick fix. I wish
people would do a little intelligent legwork before asking such general
questions.
As a woman, and as a human being, I often feel the obligation and the
genuine desire to help people out. And I do - a lot. I just hate having to
decide who is more worthy of help, because I cannot help everyone. I just
lose so much energy.
Yes, I know this is just a newsgroup. But I care about the people here -
yes, even the newbies, and even the lurkers!! And I care about my art. I
love beads. And I want to share my successes and failures with everyone. I
want to help. But dammit, sometimes I can't. Sometimes, people just ask
way too much.
So sometimes I won't post.
It's not that I don't care because I DO.
And as far as being nice to people, I pretty much always try. But on
occasion, someone gets on my last available nerve. I'm human, and that's
normal. This is the real world. People aren't expected to be nice all the
time. And you know what - respect needs to be earned. If you come in here
and respectfully ask specific questions and genuinely show that you care
about this art, I will be nice to you. If you come in here with a lack of
respect for the art and for the people here, I might not say anything. Or I
might, and it might not be so nice.
That's about the size of it.
My opinion and YMMV and all that.

--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net

I want to explain something. I know I don't need to, but I need to. I
need to
ask some things too.

I have a bad reaction to people coming here and asking us to do their
legwork
for them, and displaying other bad manners. By that I don't mean someone
like
Pam, who asks what we think about stringing material. She's not asking so
she
can have us do her work for her. She wants to buy an item, and not spend
a
month's salary trying bad choices -- and worse. She knows most of us use
stringing material daily.

I object to people who've only made a couple of quick pieces and come here
asking us where they should sell them; then they get all pushed out of
shape
when we give them answers they don't want. They aren't ready to go into
business yet. I remember people like this when I had my stamp company --
they'd have been stamping 3 months, and they wanted someone to give them a
course in stampmaking, so they wouldn't have to pound the pavements doing
their
own investigating.

Pam, for instance, is ready to use stringing material -- and we can easily
help
her without feeling (or being) used.

I know, I don't have to answer anyone if I don't want to. I realize that.
Bear with me, okay?

Some here were quick to dis me when I reacted with disapproval when Mary
asked
where she should sell stuff (despite the fact that she'd made only 4
pieces of
jewelry so far). I have to take exception to this -- I feel her post was
evident of bad manners long before my reaction was. Yet I was condemned
for
not taking a more saintly attitude toward her needs.

If we were a NG full of men, she'd have asked where to sell her stuff and
they
would've hooted her off the NG -- "Are you insane? You're not ready!" or
"Sheez
-- find out yourself!" I finally got testy after she asked a few more
questions, and I was lambasted by several members of RCB. Excuse me?

No one here is my mother. I have a right to my own feelings, and I can
express
them if I feel I must (you don't have to read it). Why was everyone
turning
themselves inside out explaining my posts to this person we don't even
know?
Why do we do acrobatics trying to be so damn nice to every single person
who
shows up here? Why? Do we need to be loved by everyone? Are we so
afraid of
being less than Perfect Hostesses? And why is that?

I've seen no evidence that everyone who comes here needs to be welcomed
with
open arms, especially if they're the millionth person here to ask Mary's
question, and be as totally inexperienced as Mary was/is. If you want to
take
care of these newbies who have bad manners, please, do. Do it. But don't
ask
me to pretend I'm helping too.

There are newbies, and there are newbies. I love most newbies -- I
thought
Mary acted badly right out of the chute. We treated her exactly like we
treat
even the best people who show up here, and I don't think she warranted
it --
but that's okay, your actions are your own. I just think mine should've
been
clearly *my* own, as well.

Why jump through hoops making sure someone with a bad attitude still wants
to
stay here on RCB? Why does someone have to be as egregiously nasty as
Pnats in
order for us to stop kissing her feet? (And even then, some of us were
laying
the lace on the tea tray and warming the kettle -- even after she'd hit us
with
two troll attacks.)

I don't understand the need to be saintly in our acceptance of every
single
representative of humankind who shows up at this doorstep. I just don't.
Anyone and everyone can come here, but if they behave badly, I see no
reason to
kiss the hem of her garment. If you can explain this to me in a
convincing
manner, I will send you a pound of See's Candy -- of your choice. I am
serious. (One person only.)
~~
Sooz
-------
"Those in the cheaper seats clap. The rest of you rattle your jewelry."
John
Lennon (1940 - 1980) Royal Varieties Performance
~ Dr. Sooz's Bead Links
http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html

Mary, if you lurked here for any length of time, you would know the answer
to your first couple of questions. You just don't know how many times we
are all asked where we sell and for how much.
I don't think you came here to **** anyone off - I so think you should have
read some of the newsgroup before posting.
That's common practice all over the internet. If you had done research,
wouldn't you have known more about what the materials were that you were
using? Seriously, you seemed not to know, so I am sure people assumed, and
maybe wrongly, that you had not done any research.
Please remember that some people here consider you competition in the
beadwork industry. Therefore, it is bad manners really to just some out and
ask, before really knowing anyone, where people sell and for how much.

The troll attack thing is completely unrelated to you specifically, so I
don't think you need to worry about that. She was generally pointing out an
extreme example of weirdness in the way people are treated here. No need to
really get into that, unless you really want to know. And it would take
days to explain.

Sooz is not the only one with an opinion. She is just very expressive about
how she feels. She's strong willed and assertive, and when she sees
something she disagrees with, she talks about it.
I think the personal blasting went both ways.
My opinion. Again. YMMV

--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net

I thought
Mary acted badly right out of the chute.

Because I asked where you all sell jewelry?? Or how or for what price? I
was
curious! I already knew what I had planned and I was interested what
others
did. I assumed by the name of the newsgroup that this was a group of bead
crafters - people who like beads and stringing them and making pretty
things.
I did not know I was asking a question to pros who look down their noses
to
everyone with less experience. And for your information, I have done a
fair
share of research on the internet, in books, at the local store, etc....
I
didn't just wander in here to **** anyone off and for some reason you
can't
seem to "get" that!

And even then, some of us were laying
the lace on the tea tray and warming the kettle -- even after she'd hit
us
with
two troll attacks

Troll attacks? Exactly what do you mean by that???

Are you the only one with an opinion? Is every person who comes here
expected
to agree with everything you say? I disagreed with you about findings in
my
jewelry - I expressed my opinion and was interested in finding out why
your
opinion differed. Meanwhile, I did further research and found validity in
what
you said but as often as I keep saying I appreciate what information I
have
gotten here from the group, you keep personally blasting me. Are you done
now?
Because I am done hearing it!


Mary
Close To My Heart Consultant
www.stampinhappens.com
Mom to Aimee, dedicated college student
and Jacob, CP kid and aspiring mafia godfather

"Dr. Sooz" wrote in message
...
I don't understand the need to be saintly in our acceptance of every
single
representative of humankind who shows up at this doorstep. I just don't.
Anyone and everyone can come here, but if they behave badly, I see no
reason to
kiss the hem of her garment. If you can explain this to me in a
convincing
manner, I will send you a pound of See's Candy -- of your choice. I am
serious. (One person only.)
~~
Sooz

Okay, I'm only doing this to get the candy.

1. No one seems to be expecting "saintly". Common courtesy, however, even
in the face of bad behavior, is a long way from garment-hem kissing, and in
my opinion, wins every time. The stark contrast to the bad behavior leaves
the courteous responder smelling like a rose.

2. Cluelessness is a long way from "bad behavior". And gracious
condescension is a lot more fun in response to either, not to mention a
great opportunity to exercise one's creative skills. "What interesting
little lampwork beads! Did you intend for them to be that unusual
assymetrical bulbous shape or was it happenstance? The opaque colors
certainly catch one's attention." gets exactly the same point across as
"Tiny, misshapen muddy beads are GROSS!!!"

3. The quickest way to extinguish behavior is to ignore it. If you don't
like someone's initial post, killfile them at once. If the group agrees
with you and also doesn't respond, the issue (and, no doubt the poster) dies
a quiet death.

4. Responding in a way you know will be perceived as discourteous makes you
look grumpy. Notice that I'm not accusing you of being grumpy, just
commenting on how you'll be perceived.

5. Anyone who has participated in this newsgroup for more than a week knows
that responding sharply to a post, no matter how clueless that post, is
guaranteed to result in ten gazillion posts that have NOTHING to do with
beads and NOTHING to do with our quite frequently interesting if OT lives
and NOTHING to do with community building and always degenerate into
personal namecalling and generalized unpleasantness. While the exact way in
which someone phrases their comments in these exchanges may be interesting,
in the same way a train wreck is interesting, it's still a little sickmaking
for those of us without strong stomachs.

On second thought, please buy yourself a box of candy. I'm too fat and
sweet already to need it!

Elise

OBR: I made my first beaded cab last night! While perfectionists might
find that it leaves a great deal to be desired ("Did you intend for the bale
to be off center? And don't worry about the back -- it won't show when
you're wearing it.") I'm quite pleased to have learned how to do this.


--
This is a post-only address.
Send replies to e_lewis AT bellsouth DOT net
(with the obvious corrections)

As much as I would love to try some See's Candy I cannot even try to support
the idea that we should exhibit saintly amounts of patience all the time. I
get a bit fed up at times with people coming to NGs expecting the answers to
be spoon fed to them. ( I havent read the posts that Sooz is referring to
and so are not commenting on them specifically)
Google is a good reference. Learn to use it Newbies. Spend some time
lurking so you get the flavor of the group. Its just good manners.
I think of each newsgroup as a party in progress. I never just walk into a
party and start talking, I listen first to see what sort of group Im
entering. That way I can get a clue as to what might offend a group and
steer away. I can see what topics seem to be talked to death and avoid. I
can see if there is anything new I can add to a group. It cant be all Take
Take Take
Diana

--
Anyone and everyone can come here, but if they behave badly, I see no
reason to
kiss the hem of her garment. If you can explain this to me in a
convincing
manner, I will send you a pound of See's Candy -- of your choice. I am
serious. (One person only.)

I agree wholly with Diana. In a world where so many people around me are "pc" and
walk on eggshells around people, it's nice to be around someone who calls it as she
sees it. You're "real" and I wouldn't have you any other way.

The information i've gained by sitting back and reading, then asking a few specific
questions, has been invaluable to me. I admire each and every one of you for your
talents and knowledge, and as a newbie to the art side of beading, I trust your
opinions on the materials you use. I'll stick around as long as I feel I can be an
active and contributing member of the group, and as long as you don't get sick of me
and tell me to leave (which I really hope you'd be honest with me if i annoy you!)

Ok, enough rambling...just wanted to throw in my two cents.
--
Jalynne
Queen Gypsy (snail mail available upon request)
see what i've been up to at www.100megsfree4.com/jalynne

"Dr. Sooz" wrote in message
...
I want to explain something. I know I don't need to, but I need to. I need to
ask some things too.

I have a bad reaction to people coming here and asking us to do their legwork
for them, and displaying other bad manners. By that I don't mean someone like
Pam, who asks what we think about stringing material. She's not asking so she
can have us do her work for her. She wants to buy an item, and not spend a
month's salary trying bad choices -- and worse. She knows most of us use
stringing material daily.

I object to people who've only made a couple of quick pieces and come here
asking us where they should sell them; then they get all pushed out of shape
when we give them answers they don't want. They aren't ready to go into
business yet. I remember people like this when I had my stamp company --
they'd have been stamping 3 months, and they wanted someone to give them a
course in stampmaking, so they wouldn't have to pound the pavements doing their
own investigating.

Pam, for instance, is ready to use stringing material -- and we can easily help
her without feeling (or being) used.

I know, I don't have to answer anyone if I don't want to. I realize that.
Bear with me, okay?

Some here were quick to dis me when I reacted with disapproval when Mary asked
where she should sell stuff (despite the fact that she'd made only 4 pieces of
jewelry so far). I have to take exception to this -- I feel her post was
evident of bad manners long before my reaction was. Yet I was condemned for
not taking a more saintly attitude toward her needs.

If we were a NG full of men, she'd have asked where to sell her stuff and they
would've hooted her off the NG -- "Are you insane? You're not ready!" or "Sheez
-- find out yourself!" I finally got testy after she asked a few more
questions, and I was lambasted by several members of RCB. Excuse me?

No one here is my mother. I have a right to my own feelings, and I can express
them if I feel I must (you don't have to read it). Why was everyone turning
themselves inside out explaining my posts to this person we don't even know?
Why do we do acrobatics trying to be so damn nice to every single person who
shows up here? Why? Do we need to be loved by everyone? Are we so afraid of
being less than Perfect Hostesses? And why is that?

I've seen no evidence that everyone who comes here needs to be welcomed with
open arms, especially if they're the millionth person here to ask Mary's
question, and be as totally inexperienced as Mary was/is. If you want to take
care of these newbies who have bad manners, please, do. Do it. But don't ask
me to pretend I'm helping too.

There are newbies, and there are newbies. I love most newbies -- I thought
Mary acted badly right out of the chute. We treated her exactly like we treat
even the best people who show up here, and I don't think she warranted it --
but that's okay, your actions are your own. I just think mine should've been
clearly *my* own, as well.

Why jump through hoops making sure someone with a bad attitude still wants to
stay here on RCB? Why does someone have to be as egregiously nasty as Pnats in
order for us to stop kissing her feet? (And even then, some of us were laying
the lace on the tea tray and warming the kettle -- even after she'd hit us with
two troll attacks.)

I don't understand the need to be saintly in our acceptance of every single
representative of humankind who shows up at this doorstep. I just don't.
Anyone and everyone can come here, but if they behave badly, I see no reason to
kiss the hem of her garment. If you can explain this to me in a convincing
manner, I will send you a pound of See's Candy -- of your choice. I am
serious. (One person only.)
~~
Sooz
-------
"Those in the cheaper seats clap. The rest of you rattle your jewelry." John
Lennon (1940 - 1980) Royal Varieties Performance
~ Dr. Sooz's Bead Links
http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html