The Designer's Cut

Liesch wrote:
Dear Caryn:

Now we all know how you love to argue, especially when you can misquote or
half quote what someone else has to say so I will make one comment about
what you have said then you won't hear any more from me on this subject as I
don't care to feed your vanity.'

Vanity? It was a legit question, and you, one of her loyal flowers,
couldn't help but repeat her rantings almost verbatim.


Perhaps you should try reading my message a second time. I did not say
shops were selling photocopied charts. I said some eBay sellers were
selling so called kits made up using photocopied charts.

No, you said this: "Shops call this kiting up a design, but it
is not what upsets designers. Most designers are unhappy about so called
kits that are sold with photocopied charts, wrong and/or poorly cut fabric,
etc. "

Leading me to believe you were still talking about shops, since you did
not mention Ebay.





Also since I have stitched models for over a dozen different designers, I
expect that I can honestly say I have spoken with a number of designers
about this problem.

That's amazing. I've model stitched as well, for two other designers
besides myself, and that subject never came up. So far as I know the
only designer being extremely vocal about it is your favorite, and
she's even making her own garden unhappy with it lately.


I did not say there was anything wrong with making money legally. What I
said was that some people don't care how they make money - legally or
illegally. Glad to hear that you make your money legally as I've always
thought all you did was verbally fight with people who post on rctn.

Rita Liesch

You said, and I quote: "people who are out to make a buck by any means,
legal or not."

But whatever, you know, cuz all you do on RCTN is repeat the rantings
of a designer a lot of RCTN came to loath when she posted her nonsense
here.

Caryn





wrote in message
ups.com...

Liesch wrote:
Very few designers care if a person buys a chart then later on sells it
(whether or not it has been stitched). What the designers are unhappy
about
is the person who photocopies a chart and sells dozens of the
photocopies on
eBay.


I did say "ORIGINAL chart" in my post. I detest the folks who sell
photocopies or trade scanned charts online.

Very few designers care if a needlework shop (brick and mortar or
online)
assembles the proper size fabric, full skeins of floss, and full packets
of
beads) to sell along with an original chart or to sell to someone who
already owns an original chart. Shops call this kiting up a design, but
it
is not what upsets designers. Most designers are unhappy about so
called
kits that are sold with photocopied charts, wrong and/or poorly cut
fabric,
etc.

"Most" huh? Just curious how many you've spoke to to come to that
conclusion. I've never seen a photocopied chart kitted up in a shop
except the occasional freebie chart that is ok to be photocopied and
distributed to shops in the first place. Shops can't charge for the
chart, but they can for the kitted materials.


An individual may legally purchase a duplicate or even triplicate of a
chart
they already own. They are free to sell those on eBay if they wish. NO
ONE
is free to make multiple photocopies and sell them on eBay or anywhere
else,
implying the person purchasing is receiving an authorized kit.

And no, I am not a designer, just a person who hates to see anyone (even
a
designer) get taken advantage of because of people who are out to make a
buck by any means, legal or not.

Rita Liesch

Um....did you just say making money legally is a problem? I hope you
don't mind if I keep my paycheck earned thru legal hard work.

Caryn




wrote in message
ps.com...
I've heard that a designer or two (or more) has been really upset to
discover their charts are up for sale at Ebay, or at a discount at
online sites. As a designer, ok, ex-designer cuz I just don't have
the
time currently, I'm confused by their attitude.

My charts retail for $9-10 each, wholesale is half of that. Industry
standard pricing.

I sold them to my distributor at the wholesale rate, minus their cut.
They sold them at the wholesale rate to the shops. The shops
generally
sold them at the $9-10, but it was entirely up to them what markup
they
put on them. They could charge more or less, if they felt it would
help their business. Heck they could sell them at the wholesale rate
if they wanted to, no profit for them, but hey, their business not
mine!

Thing is I got my cut up front. I do not have the right to another
dime once my charts leave my hands. If someone decides they were not
going to stitch my design afterall, it is 100% legal to sell the
ORIGINAL chart on Ebay and try to recoop some of their stash money. I
cannot suddenly demand that the seller give me a cut of what she gets.
I got my money for that chart before it hit the store she bought it
at.

My distributor sold my designs to any shop that wanted to purchase
them, that's how the business works, you meet demand. If the demand
came from a brick-and-mortar shop or from an on-line only shop it
didn't matter. We (the distributor and I) both made money, the shop
got merchandise and hopefully sold the chart and made money too.
Everybody's happy, right? If any shop wished to "kit up" my charts,
more power to them! I didn't have the space, time or money to sell
them as kits, so if a store wanted to take the time to do it for the
convenience of the customer, it was fine with me! I'd gotten my cut
afterall.

How is it that other designers think that they should get more each
time the same chart changes hands? Or think they have the right to
say
a shop can't kit up a design just because the designer themselves
doesn't sell their charts as kits? Am I the crazy one or are they?

Caryn (who is probably crazy in other ways, I'll grant you!)

wrote:

But whatever, you know, cuz all you do on RCTN is repeat the rantings
of a designer a lot of RCTN came to loath when she posted her nonsense
here.

Actually, it was a "few" very vocal, insensitive, and some downright
mean comments that were said to Marilyn, for whom many thought was a
legitimate member of RCTN and contributed to the group as a whole. Her
threads were easy to ignore if you didn't care for the conversations.

We have lost a number of excellent designers and fiber artists for the
same mean-spirited reasons.

Dianne

On 9/30/06 12:03 AM, "Liesch" wrote:

*snipping the snippage*

Perhaps you should try reading my message a second time. I did not say
shops were selling photocopied charts. I said some eBay sellers were
selling so called kits made up using photocopied charts.

This would definitely be illegal - if the charts are included. If just
selling kits of materials labelled as "kits that can be used for XXX" then
it would be legal.

Also since I have stitched models for over a dozen different designers, I
expect that I can honestly say I have spoken with a number of designers
about this problem.

I did not say there was anything wrong with making money legally. What I
said was that some people don't care how they make money - legally or
illegally.
Umm - FWIW - what you originally wrote was confusing - inserted he
And no, I am not a designer, just a person who hates to see anyone (even
a
designer) get taken advantage of because of people who are out to make a
buck by any means, legal or not.

Glad to hear that you make your money legally as I've always
thought all you did was verbally fight with people who post on rctn.

Rita Liesch

So, just curious - why didn't you just answer her post without the snipe -
if you find Caryn to be so argumentative? At least you didn't accuse her of
fisticuffs - here at RCTN we're just stuck with the virtual kind....

Ellice - who is not particularly interested in fighting either way


wrote in message
ups.com...

Liesch wrote:
Very few designers care if a person buys a chart then later on sells it
(whether or not it has been stitched). What the designers are unhappy
about
is the person who photocopies a chart and sells dozens of the
photocopies on
eBay.


I did say "ORIGINAL chart" in my post. I detest the folks who sell
photocopies or trade scanned charts online.

Very few designers care if a needlework shop (brick and mortar or
online)
assembles the proper size fabric, full skeins of floss, and full packets
of
beads) to sell along with an original chart or to sell to someone who
already owns an original chart. Shops call this kiting up a design, but
it
is not what upsets designers. Most designers are unhappy about so
called
kits that are sold with photocopied charts, wrong and/or poorly cut
fabric,
etc.

"Most" huh? Just curious how many you've spoke to to come to that
conclusion. I've never seen a photocopied chart kitted up in a shop
except the occasional freebie chart that is ok to be photocopied and
distributed to shops in the first place. Shops can't charge for the
chart, but they can for the kitted materials.


An individual may legally purchase a duplicate or even triplicate of a
chart
they already own. They are free to sell those on eBay if they wish. NO
ONE
is free to make multiple photocopies and sell them on eBay or anywhere
else,
implying the person purchasing is receiving an authorized kit.

And no, I am not a designer, just a person who hates to see anyone (even
a
designer) get taken advantage of because of people who are out to make a
buck by any means, legal or not.

Rita Liesch

Um....did you just say making money legally is a problem? I hope you
don't mind if I keep my paycheck earned thru legal hard work.

Caryn




wrote in message
ps.com...
I've heard that a designer or two (or more) has been really upset to
discover their charts are up for sale at Ebay, or at a discount at
online sites. As a designer, ok, ex-designer cuz I just don't have
the
time currently, I'm confused by their attitude.

My charts retail for $9-10 each, wholesale is half of that. Industry
standard pricing.

I sold them to my distributor at the wholesale rate, minus their cut.
They sold them at the wholesale rate to the shops. The shops
generally
sold them at the $9-10, but it was entirely up to them what markup
they
put on them. They could charge more or less, if they felt it would
help their business. Heck they could sell them at the wholesale rate
if they wanted to, no profit for them, but hey, their business not
mine!

Thing is I got my cut up front. I do not have the right to another
dime once my charts leave my hands. If someone decides they were not
going to stitch my design afterall, it is 100% legal to sell the
ORIGINAL chart on Ebay and try to recoop some of their stash money. I
cannot suddenly demand that the seller give me a cut of what she gets.
I got my money for that chart before it hit the store she bought it
at.

My distributor sold my designs to any shop that wanted to purchase
them, that's how the business works, you meet demand. If the demand
came from a brick-and-mortar shop or from an on-line only shop it
didn't matter. We (the distributor and I) both made money, the shop
got merchandise and hopefully sold the chart and made money too.
Everybody's happy, right? If any shop wished to "kit up" my charts,
more power to them! I didn't have the space, time or money to sell
them as kits, so if a store wanted to take the time to do it for the
convenience of the customer, it was fine with me! I'd gotten my cut
afterall.

How is it that other designers think that they should get more each
time the same chart changes hands? Or think they have the right to
say
a shop can't kit up a design just because the designer themselves
doesn't sell their charts as kits? Am I the crazy one or are they?

Caryn (who is probably crazy in other ways, I'll grant you!)

Just a quickie note on this topic. One of our friends is a partner in a
"prestigious" patent, trademark, copyright firm. Though he is a patent guy,
he knows a fair amount (or according to him, enough to get into trouble)
about copyrights. Last night we were talking about this - in the "don't
start the clock" mode. In brief - he said that:
1 - Copyright law is much more complicated than patents or trademark
(easiest) because of things that have just been done (as in when an
easement for property is granted because the use has never been contested -
my paraphrase), and there are differences in the copyright laws from
state-to-state vs the federal basic copyright (whatever info you find on the
copyright office web site from the US gov).

2 - the only places where copyright is a "big" thing are California because
of Music, movies, tv, and New York - same & mostly for publishing.
Tennessee - with Nashville - to a much lesser extent.

3 - the issue we were talking about - specifically - visual art, the use of
a chart (i.e. The chart to make a piece of art that was designed by someone,
published under stated copyright, with permission to make 1 working
photocopy, used to produce the piece of art) would be interpreted as for the
single purchaser to use the chart. But that re-selling the chart - after it
had been used for its express purpose (to be stitched by the purchaser)
would be a violation of the individual designer's copyright protection.

Of course, he also told me that his partner who is one of the world's
experts on copyright would be happy to talk about it with me - if I was
serious or needed real counsel - but it would be expensive. I can guarantee
you I'm not forking out at least $500 for a 20 min chat....

However, my friend was pretty firm in his feelings that resale of the used
charts is a violation. The reality is that it's not a big enough industry
for someone to go to the expense of bringing action. I'd guess that if one
of the trade associations really wanted to follow-up, then the thing to do
would be to get a cease & desist type order published to Ebay - which would
perhaps stop them from carrying "resales of used charts" .

It's just one of those things - if you want to support designers to stay in
business, and try to keep prices down, then you buy their designs from an
authorized source. If you just want to keep your budget down - then you do
whatever is cheapest for you. If you don't find anything ethically wrong
with buying used charts, and can rationalize it - that's your personal
decision. Using the generic "you" here - not accusing anyone.

Well - off to buy some red silk for the garden...

Ellice - who is happy the sun is out now

ellice wrote:
However, my friend was pretty firm in his feelings that resale of
the used
charts is a violation. The reality is that it's not a big enough industry
for someone to go to the expense of bringing action. I'd guess that if one
of the trade associations really wanted to follow-up, then the thing to do
would be to get a cease & desist type order published to Ebay - which would
perhaps stop them from carrying "resales of used charts" .

Hmmmmm . . . Libraries sell used books to raise funds. Same with sheet
music. If I have software, it is perfectly legal for me to sell it (or
give it away) as long as I don't retain a copy (I've been through this
more than once with the original copyright holder).

I find this quite confusing and I'm not sure what you quoted is the
bottom line. I think it's far trickier than that. I will not disagree
that selling a photocopy is out and out fraud. There's a lot of that
going on.

In some less than clear cases, all a lawyer has to do is waggle a finger
and the average person can't fight back because of the costs involved.
Been there, too.

Dianne
--
Embroidery Discussions at http://www.heritageshoppe.com/forum

Well, the copyright attorney I actually paid a retainer to doesn't see
the second-hand usage an issue.


Dianne Lewandowski wrote:

In some less than clear cases, all a lawyer has to do is waggle a finger
and the average person can't fight back because of the costs involved.

I suspect it's more like regular folks are too intimidated to try to
fight back or assume it will cost more than it would.



--
Elizabeth
Pop the bubbles to reply.

www.effervescentdesigns.com

LizardGumbo wrote:
I suspect it's more like regular folks are too intimidated to try to
fight back or assume it will cost more than it would.

That may also be true. However, most attorneys I know charge more than
an average person can readily afford. An opposing attorney with
(seemingly) endless funds can cause the average individual to expend
considerable funds. Went through this about 8 years ago on a different
matter entirely.

Also went through it recently with a threatening attorney whom I know
couldn't have won. But I don't have the funds to fight back, nor the
emotional strength to go through years of litigation. Being your own
attorney is time consuming and fraught with dangers.

I just wish people would realize what the law is and understand why it
*is* the law. I have no sympathy for those who feel "entitled" for
whatever reason.

Dianne

--
Embroidery Discussions at http://www.heritageshoppe.com/forum

ellice wrote:
However, my friend was pretty firm in his feelings that resale of
the used
charts is a violation. The reality is that it's not a big enough industry
for someone to go to the expense of bringing action. I'd guess that if one
of the trade associations really wanted to follow-up, then the thing to do
would be to get a cease & desist type order published to Ebay - which would
perhaps stop them from carrying "resales of used charts" .

But in that case it should be legal to resell a chart that one hasn't
stitched (I have PLENTY of those.) I have no idea how ebay could tell
if you stitched it or not.

Alison

I belonged to RTCN as a lurker several years ago and left when all the
vitrol re MLI became nasty. Returning I see the same people and statements
are still here. Very sad.

"Dianne Lewandowski" wrote in message
...
wrote:

But whatever, you know, cuz all you do on RCTN is repeat the rantings
of a designer a lot of RCTN came to loath when she posted her nonsense
here.

Actually, it was a "few" very vocal, insensitive, and some downright
mean comments that were said to Marilyn, for whom many thought was a
legitimate member of RCTN and contributed to the group as a whole. Her
threads were easy to ignore if you didn't care for the conversations.

We have lost a number of excellent designers and fiber artists for the
same mean-spirited reasons.

Dianne

As a designer this has been a very interesting thread. It is an issue I
debate with my other half all the time; What is a fair balance between
us and our customers?

Obviously I cannot condone people photocopying charts and then selling
them as I would go out of business. Equally I have no issue with people
selling completely unused kits or charts on ebay for whatever they can
get for them. The area in between is where it is rather grey.
Personally, I would not consider someone who bought a chart and made up
the design several times for their own use (as a set of identical
cushions say) to have acted unfairly, but passing a chart round several
people (whether for money or just giving or swapping it) starts to seem
a bit unfair to me. Am I too sensitive?

The sad thing is when the law gets in the way of people acting
reasonably. I have always had a few older customers who have problems
with their eyesight and I never used to have any worries about telling
them to photocopy the charts if they wanted to enlarge them. These days
I don't feel I can say that as saying it would seem to be giving cart
blanche to anyone to copy my charts. Now I have to ask them to contact
me to get a larger scale copy (I don't charge extra).

I think some of the issues about what the law says is confused because
what we are really talking about is the stitcher purchasing a license
to use the design and yet there is no clear license agreement. Maybe
someone who knows how to write such an agreement could draft one we
could all use so we all knew where we stand.

Cheers!

Karen