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#11
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How to melt a penny
Limpy wrote:
Peter, I think he explained everything quite well. He's obviously somewhat ****ed off at our (US) government for various and sundry justifiable reasons, not least of which is the fact that it makes it a crime to melt the useless penny, made useless I might add by the hidden tax of inflation. In these days of modern times, when you can't tell the AC's from the DC's aren't we all yearning for someone who can turn on a little stopping power? Don't you think I mean a smoky glass, a lightening rod with which to chase the spooks away? The posting was humorous. Y'all need to lighten up a bit. Thanks Limpy for the reality test. Oh, and thanks for the second paragraph, I wore out a copy of that record back in my hippie days. Mouse |
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#12
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How to melt a penny
Found the USA Today link about melting coins.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/2006-1...ban-usat_x.htm Extracted Quote: Under the new rules, it is illegal to melt pennies and nickels. It is also illegal to export the coins for melting. Travelers may legally carry up to $5 in 1- and 5-cent coins out of the USA or ship $100 of the coins abroad "for legitimate coinage and numismatic purposes." Violators could spend up to five years in prison and pay as much as $10,000 in fines. Plus, the government will confiscate any coins or metal used in melting schemes. |
#13
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How to melt a penny
Hello again, Peter. I am in good spirits, and I have a high regard
for your opinions. Iron makes a good anvil. =A0Zinc, however, makes cheap trinkets Those who make their own machine tools use scrap zinc and aluminum. in die cast molds, not quality tools For "quality tools" we would need quality foundry coke, not the quarter-inch breeze that the coke industry dumps on us hobbyists. , especially not ones needing some strength. =A0There ARE, of course, some more complex zinc based alloys that have better properties, = but pennies are not such an alloy. No, for Zamac, we would also need aluminum, magnesium, and copper, all of which can be purchased as scrap. =A0Costume jewelry is sometimes made of plated "white metal", which may often be a zinc based alloy for the cheaper stuf= f, or a tin based one (pewter) for better quality. =A0 I suspedted as much. I like my trinkets to be as cheap as possible, by the way. My reference to irony was not to imply any great similarity between zinc = and iron. =A0There isn't, at least not in practical terms. There are those who would disagree. What is practical for one is not necessarily practical for another. And more to the point, you've not yet explained why anyone would wish to = melt pennies for the zinc in them. Yes, for the zinc in them. You got it right. =A0As Abrasha pointed out, it's a poor way of getting zinc You got sum'n again' po' folk? ;-) , since what you'd get would be an indeterminate mix of zinc and copper, plus the various impurities introduced from the higher than norma= l melting temperature needed to break down the penny, plus the higher than = usual percentage of absorbed gasses, oxides, etc, due to torch melting such a s= mall amount of the stuff. Yeah, sounds about right for a Gingery lathe, shaper, mill, or drill press. And aren't machine tools the king of the tools? The notion that pennies are a good source of tiny zinc ingots is silly. I'll tell you what's silly, Peter. What's silly is that the Houston Area Blacksmithing Association offers breeze coke to its members, labeling it as "forge coke". The quality control of the established metalworking community does not impress me in the least. There is nothing lower on the coke totem pole than breeze coke, which is unblowable by conventional means. =A0Buy a bit of zinc, and use what you wish. =A0It need not be in ingots. =A0You c= an get it granulated Yes, it is granulated by melting it, and then pouring it into water. I guess I've already done that, at the penny level. , or if in more solid stock form, clip off what you need. =A0Simple, and can give you a purity you'd actually wish to use in, for example, alloyin= g. Pennies are a poor way to add zinc to an alloy anyway News flash -- I'm a po' boy! , since at least in terms of jewelry alloys, you're usually adding it to much higher melting point = metals. The best way to do that is with an intermediate "master" alloy, usually something like an alloy of copper and zinc. =A0You can get quite pure bra= ss with a known ratio of zinc to copper To high-melt for me. , and this is a good way to introduce additional zinc into an alloy. =A0Yes, you must also take the copper in the brass in= to consideration, but that's just a bit of simple math. =A0Even if you need = to spend a few more moments getting the needed ingredients together to alloy what = you wish, your end results will be better. the end result would be more difficult to melt. I will be using a single-burner propane camping stove, not a blast furnace. =A0 Zinc cored pennies are a poor way to get a good alloy. Yes, just the thing for us po' boys! especially among those of us who are keen on making our own tools. Jeweler's vices and jeweler's lathes also come to mind here, as well as a long list of other tools which are specifically made for the jeweler. None of which normally are made of zinc. That is because coke briquettes are not normally bagged in briquette form, and then offered at the local hardware store. I will be making my own, of course, though in the meantime, I will not just be sitting around twiddling my thumbs. =A0Well, maybe some things like non-marring inserts for vise jaws, or the like. =A0But normally, even the= n, zinc isn't the common choice of metal to use. Peter, I know that you are a professional jeweler. But I am a recreational metalworker, and this is a recreational group. I am under no obligation to meet professional standards here. I am not begging for leniency. I am simply refreshing your memory, for my own memory is in good shape. Yes, Peter, in fact, a person can make more than one-hundred and eighty pennys from a pound of zinc. =A0So far, though, I have not found anyone except the government who makes zink pieces in penny sizes. You haven't yet said just why you need them. I don't need them. That's why I am a hobbyist. You need them, or other metals, because these materials are your livelihood. I am under no such constraint. =A0And why this impure and imprecise method is acceptable... Why should you require a justification? If you want pure metals, then use them. I promise that I will not stop you. Breathe a little easier because of this. And, of course, with pennys, there is no paying for shipping, waiting for shipping, and so on. No, but for your penny, you've paid far more than the value of the zinc. For a pure metal. Whatever. If I wanyed to, I could probably refine the darn stuff myself. I won't bother to research the matter, because I don't care anyway. =A0Do it right. =A0Find any decent metals supplier or lab chemicals supplier or wh= atever. Buy yourself a pound of zinc granules, or whatever other form you find ea= sy to use. =A0Be set for life. One pound would fill up less than one-tenth of the one-quart pot which the Gingery foundry specifies. I am not a jeweler. I use many of the same tools that a jeweler uses, though. This gives the government ingots the edge. You are correct about the reason why the government began making zinc pennys. =A0However, it was evidently just recently that the government outlawed the melting of zinc pennys for the same reason. =A0This, in itself, indicates the competitive nature of the government's coins as a casting medium. Either that, or they're trying to be benevolant, protecting people from t= he temptation of using their pennies for a purpose for which they're not wel= l suited, thus protectiong consumers from potentially flawed and inferior products, =A0and helping to maintain the high quality of U.S. made produc= ts by making it more likely that the proper materials are used. No, they just don't want people melting down pennies just to sell the metal. And I will not be selling any metal. Face it. =A0coins are simply not intended, nor especially good for, casti= ng purposes. =A0The main exception to that might be using pure gold bullion = coins like Canadian Maple leafs, or the like, as the source for gold with which= to alloy your jewelry alloys. =A0But even that is more expensive than buying= pure gold casting grain. Yes, gold would make very expensive tools, also. The whole topic, though, reminds me of a story I heard years ago, from a = refiner and metalurgist I was using then (now long retired). =A0He'd been hired t= o help a major jewelry manufacturer try to track down why they were having occasio= nal problems with their merchandise ending up under karat. =A0It was driving = them nuts. =A0They were buying high quality new alloy from reputable suppliers= .. =A0Most of their castings were fine. =A0But occasionally a batch would come out j= ust enough under karat it would have to be totally scrapped. =A0Eventually it= was traced to the casting department. =A0The normal casting guy was doing thi= ngs right. =A0But on his days off, two other fellows would fill in. =A0One wa= s this old timer who'd been there forever, and pretty much knew it all, or so his reputation went. =A0 My friend happened to be there watching the casting = process while he was doing a batch. =A0The gold went into the melting furnace. = =A0Melted just fine. =A0Just before pouring, the old fellow reached into his pocket= , pulled out a penny, and tossed it in "for luck". =A0When questioned, he said he = felt that the little extra bit of copper and zinc in the penny led to less porosity= or something (maybe even true with the old traditonal non-deoxidized alloys = he'd learned with way back). =A0 Problem solved. =A0It had never occurred to h= im, due to the size of the melt (several ounces at least) that his addition to an ot= herwise very precise alloy was enough to lower the karat below legal standards. = =A0Now, I heard this story second hand from my refiner, and I have no idea if it wa= s actually true, or just a nice illutration of how product quality can be a= ffected by things you'd never expect to look for. =A0But it does nicely illustrat= e one reason why pennies might not be the best thing to add to your gold alloy.= ... Peter I agree. But I plan on sticking with zinc for awhile. I will leave the gold and silver to you rich folks! ;-) |
#14
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How to melt a penny
On Sun, 12 Apr 2009 22:36:38 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry Muso
wrote: Hello again, Peter. I am in good spirits, and I have a high regard for your opinions. Thanks. Oh, and sorry for the formatting errors in sending your post. Coding conflicts betwixt your post and my software settings leads to these odd codes in the middle of text. Missed this time. I suspedted as much. I like my trinkets to be as cheap as possible, by the way. Nothing wrong with that. There are those who would disagree. What is practical for one is not necessarily practical for another. true. for one thing, I assumed you had some vaguely jewelry related use, given that this is a jewelry related newgroup. For that, zinc is often a somewhat poor choice. Not just inexpensive. Doesn't hold up well to jewelry use by itself. Usually needs a pretty heavy electroplate to protect it from the corrosive effects it encounters in jewelry use... Much better, for fairly inexpensive jewelry would be brass, similar copper based alloys, or even silver. More costly, but most jewelry made of it uses little enough it's reasonable even for those on a strict budget. And yes, your gingery furnace can melt silver if you set it up right. Ordinary charcoal briquettes and a blower/hair dryer can do it. Not large amounts, but enough. Or an ordinary propane torch from the hardware store is easier and quicker. If you really want the cheapest prices and still want to do something you can call jewelry, use pewter. That's essentially pure tin, with a trace of copper or antimony. doesn't cost much more than zinc. Contenti.com can sell you these metals, by the way, suited for white metal casting purposes, at prices you might consider reasonable, and a better use of the pennies, especially if you're melting them by the pound, as you imply... You got sum'n again' po' folk? ;-) Nope. I are one. You're assumption that jewelers are rich folks is usually incorrect. You know that old saw about starving artists... All too true sometimes. especially in a recession, when people buy somewhat less jewelry. Yeah, sounds about right for a Gingery lathe, shaper, mill, or drill press. And aren't machine tools the king of the tools? Depends on your point of view. I happen to have higher regard for the ultimate tools, the human hand and brain. Hand tools in the hands of a skilled worker are wonderful and versatile things. Machine tools in the hands of a hack are not much good or even dangerous. It's the skills of the user that make em kings, whatever the type of tools. The Gingery stuff is fun, though I'm not sure they're economically worth building. yes, you're building it all yourself, but given how cheap you can find used tools on Craigs list, ebay, or garage sales, not to mention the chinese imports from Harbor Freight, I'm not sure the build it yourself stuff is any cheaper in the long run. But you learn a lot building them, to be sure, and perhaps that's worth it all on it's own I'll tell you what's silly, Peter. What's silly is that the Houston Area Blacksmithing Association offers breeze coke to its members, labeling it as "forge coke". The quality control of the established metalworking community does not impress me in the least. There is nothing lower on the coke totem pole than breeze coke, which is unblowable by conventional means. Probably why that local org has it at all. It's cheap. Does ABAMA still have lists of suppliers on their web site? I'm certain you can find better coke out there if you need it. Or use other means if your aim is melting metals. Coke is most useful for the forge. For just plain metal melting, it's going about it the low tech way to be sure, but not exactly the easy way, unless you're melting quite a large amount, at which point you're not talking jewelry use any more. And for what it's worth, what's wrong with ordinary barbaque charcoal for the melting furnace? Not quite coke, to be sure, but back in grad school, some 20 years ago, we were using a charcoal fired furnace furnace built in an old metal bucket sort of thing, with a hair dryer blower at the bottom, to work with the metal casting methods of the Ashante peoples of east Africa. Wonderful heritage, and capable of extremely detailed castings. Things that sometimes would even be difficult to duplicate with the usually used lost wax casting methods of the jewelry industry. Brass, bronze, and gold alloys were the usual metals used. No prob with those temperature ranges, and it was just ordinary grocery store grade charcoal briquettes. News flash -- I'm a po' boy! Yeah. Me too. That's why I'd prefer to keep my pennies in their more valuable, bill paying form, with which I can buy more than their weight in zinc fairly easily. To high-melt for me. See above. the end result would be more difficult to melt. I will be using a single-burner propane camping stove, not a blast furnace. true, an open burner stove would be hard to use. But swap it for a decent propane torch, build a small cylindrical tube furnace with the flame entering tangentially at the bottom, add a small crucible, and you can melt almost anything in the normal range of non-ferrous metals. Or go to the scale of your Gingery furnace and do the same with a propane burner and blower made from a hair dryer. Some people who use such furnaces for larger amounts might use a purchased burner head, but even that, you can build yourself. Not that hard to do. Or use that same furnace design just with charcoal, as described above. The blower is what gives you the higher temp range... That is because coke briquettes are not normally bagged in briquette form, and then offered at the local hardware store. I will be making my own, of course, though in the meantime, I will not just be sitting around twiddling my thumbs. I really don't think you have to have coke unless you're trying to reach the temps needed for cast iron (as the gingery furnace is designed to do, if I recall right.). For aluminum or other lower melting alloys, while coke is nice, lasting longer, if you can't get decent coke, then why bother with the junk at all. (unless of course it still works, and is cheaper than charcoal...) Peter, I know that you are a professional jeweler. But I am a recreational metalworker, and this is a recreational group. I am under no obligation to meet professional standards here. I am not begging for leniency. I am simply refreshing your memory, for my own memory is in good shape. Agreed. the group does not require any level of standards. Though I'm a professional, many readers of this group are not. However, be aware that the group IS specified as a jewelry specific group (need the charter? Go to Google groups and find an old post of the FAQ file, where I included the charter, or ask in email, and I'll send you a copy), so the usual standards of thinking about metal the way jewelers do is usually assumed, even if not required. Thus the assumptions on the nature of the alloys you might be using, or what you might be using them for. By the way, the "rec" part in the newsgroup name is simply the place this group is organized within the heirarchy of newsgroups. All the crafts, whether professional or not, or in this section of the newsgroup structure except those that didn't want to go through the formal creation process, and get themselves set up as "Alt" groups. It does not imply that the groups are more recreational or less professional. The only definition of this group is that it's somehow related to the jewelry craft, and that it's non-commercial and moderated in nature. Beyond that, it's what you and other readers make it. I'd mention that if your interest is more to the usually non-jewelry sorts of metal working, including those Gingery machine tools and the like, you might wish to check out rec.crafts.metalworking. More along the usual lines for that group, though of course you're welcome here too, if you like. One pound would fill up less than one-tenth of the one-quart pot which the Gingery foundry specifies. I am not a jeweler. I use many of the same tools that a jeweler uses, though. See, this is why I'd think you'd want to buy the metal. If you're actually melting ten pounds of metal at a time, pennies are a pretty costly way to get it... I agree. But I plan on sticking with zinc for awhile. I will leave the gold and silver to you rich folks! ;-) I wish. Just because I have to buy precious metals to practice my trade doesn't mean I'm left with loads of cash at the end. Just doesn't work that way, unfortunately. Especially not with today's metals prices. But seriously. Try pewter. You might like it. Nicer to work with than zinc. Cleaner to cast, similar costs. And at this point, I'm thinking we've beaten this penny horse to death. Unless we want to talk about bronzing the sucker... (grin) that would take a big plating tank. Maybe the bathtub could be modified... Peter |
#15
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How to melt a penny
Henry wrote:
Found the USA Today link about melting coins. http://www.usatoday.com/money/2006-1...ban-usat_x.htm Extracted Quote: Under the new rules, it is illegal to melt pennies and nickels. It is also illegal to export the coins for melting. Travelers may legally carry up to $5 in 1- and 5-cent coins out of the USA or ship $100 of the coins abroad "for legitimate coinage and numismatic purposes." Violators could spend up to five years in prison and pay as much as $10,000 in fines. Plus, the government will confiscate any coins or metal used in melting schemes. Wow, I had no idea. I apologize for posting out of ignorance that melting coins was OK. crazy Carl |
#16
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How to melt a penny
Muso wrote:
As Abrasha pointed out, it's a poor way of getting zinc You got sum'n again' po' folk? ;-) No, just poor folks with an attitude. -- snip superfluous drivel -- Pennies are a poor way to add zinc to an alloy anyway News flash -- I'm a po' boy! With a High Speed Internet connection? -- SNIP -- Peter, I know that you are a professional jeweler. But I am a recreational metalworker, and this is a recreational group. I am under no obligation to meet professional standards here. I am not begging for leniency. I am simply refreshing your memory, for my own memory is in good shape. With all due respect, it seems that this is the wrong Usenet group for you to post in. There is a better one, where you will get a great deal more understanding and support for your issues then here. It is called rec.crafts.metalworking. Check it out, I think you'll like it. FYI, it is an unmoderated newsgroup. If you act like a fool, they will pounce on you hard in a flash. Peter won't allow that here. You'll also find a whole bunch of Southern Red Neck "po' boys" there, who will be more than willing to sympathize. -- SNIP -- I agree. But I plan on sticking with zinc for awhile. I will leave the gold and silver to you rich folks! ;-) Lose the attitude you seem to have about "rich folks". I don't think you know much about "rich folks". They'll love you over at rec.crafts.metalworking though. You're their kind of guy. BTW, how many Gingery machine tools have you built? You don't sound like the kind of person who has built any. -- Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com |
#17
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How to melt a penny
On Tue, 14 Apr 2009 11:48:58 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry Abrasha
wrote: BTW, how many Gingery machine tools have you built? You don't sound like the kind of person who has built any. I kinda wondered about that too, what with talking both about the Gingery foundry/melting furnace, but then about melting over a propane camp stove instead. A considerable step down from that fairly capable home made furnace... But in the end, it doesn't really matter, does it. The main subject, whether pennies are a good, legal, economical and metalurgically sound source of zinc, is seperate from what machine's he's built or not. And it appears that well informed opinions on the matter are meeting a bit of a brick wall. OK. His choice. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." Peter |
#18
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How to melt a penny
"Peter W. Rowe" wrote in message
... His choice. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." Peter They used to say that about Camels too but that was all changed when Abdullah Al-Kaboom discovered two flat rocks side by each and had a brainstorm. "What would happen" he thought " if I take these two flat rocks and juuuuussssssst as the Camel sticks his nose in the Oasis smash them together on that Camel's testicles?" He found that he could get 3 extra days trekking out of each Camel that way. -- Don Thompson Stolen from Dan: "Just thinking, besides, I watched 2 dogs mating once, and that makes me an expert. " There is nothing more frightening than active ignorance. ~Goethe It is a worthy thing to fight for one's freedom; it is another sight finer to fight for another man's. ~Mark Twain |
#19
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How to melt a penny
Wow, I had no idea. I apologize for posting out of ignorance that melting coins was OK. crazy Carl Not necessary to apologize, I didn't know either and did a google search to see if it was legal or not. I always thought it was illegal for the wrong reasons. I learned a lot myself. Henry |
#20
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How to melt a penny
On Tue, 14 Apr 2009 22:51:06 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Don T"
wrote: His choice. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." Peter They used to say that about Camels too but that was all changed when Abdullah Al-Kaboom discovered two flat rocks side by each and had a brainstorm. snip OK, Don. Now we're REALLY getting off topic for the group... And a bit off color too. But funny if you ignore animal abuse issues... |
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