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  #21  
Old January 11th 04, 07:24 AM
Sweet Sawdust
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I agree that I would rather have government out of it, but you need someone
with "authority and credibility" to do this. At this time there is no non
gov group that has the name to make it happen. Even with fees and a license
we would have credibility to show the quality of our work which would be
good.
"Gary V. Deutschmann, Sr." wrote in message
...
Although it sounds like a good idea.

I would rather see it done on a local or national level through local
crafts organizations, than by getting the government involved.

Once the government gets involved, then fees start getting added and
finally they require a license. All too soon a permit will then be
required at additional expense. Then inspectors will follow-up on
government payroll, etc. And soon, only state licensed craftspersons
will be allowed to sell their works.

Don't say it will never happen.
Look what happed to ALL of the building trades!

TTUL
Gary



Ads
  #22  
Old January 11th 04, 03:33 PM
Gary V. Deutschmann, Sr.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

There are enough professional crafters on the newsgroups here, that it
may be possible to get a group going with an office in every country,
with state, and/or province sub-groups forming.

It's not as hard as it sounds to kick something like this off!
It was many years ago, but I was part of two different new group
startups. One died out after a number of years, there being a larger
group that started about the same time that took over. The other is
still going today, albeit under a different name and leadership group.
So it is possible!

TTUL
Gary


  #23  
Old January 11th 04, 08:00 PM
Sweet Sawdust
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I would be in favor of that if we could get it going. The big problem is
credibility. We have several groups in Kentucky that have tried this and so
far no go. One group is the Kentucky Guild of Artisans that says it speaks
for all Kentucky craftsmen. No one will join in my part of the state
because it favors crafts from the eastern part of the state, I can not join
because I am a western area craftsman even though I sell crafts in the
eastern part of the state, they have no credibility in my area. The state
sponsored group has credibility throughout the state but is hard to get into
and is interested only in selling goods and raising revenues through the
marketing crafts. Each group has its own venue and is good in its area but
not on a state wide basis. How do you recommend that we get a group started
and give it credibility? Maybe go through a established commercial group
like the Rosen shows that has credibility? and how do we get the public to
accept the group once we have it set up? Maybe an Guild system like the old
English one with different levels of expertise and who judges?
"Gary V. Deutschmann, Sr." wrote in message
...
There are enough professional crafters on the newsgroups here, that it
may be possible to get a group going with an office in every country,
with state, and/or province sub-groups forming.

It's not as hard as it sounds to kick something like this off!
It was many years ago, but I was part of two different new group
startups. One died out after a number of years, there being a larger
group that started about the same time that took over. The other is
still going today, albeit under a different name and leadership group.
So it is possible!

TTUL
Gary




  #24  
Old January 12th 04, 03:32 PM
Gary V. Deutschmann, Sr.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi Sawdust

It does take some time to get from point A to point Z with a lot of
little steps along the way.

Many organizations where once an idea formed around a coffee table at
tea time that grew and grew and grew. Those that think locally
usually remain a local group, whereas those that think internationally
from the outset soon become the predominant group.

East meets west is a common problem in many states and provinces, but
not a problem that is unsurmountable, and in some cases, may even be
beneficial.

There are many fields of endeavor that have united for a common cause,
it was slow going at first but then built up momentum as more and more
groups joined the common cause. Most importantly, each group must
know that it has a say-so in the governing of the primary group. This
is important so that all groups needs are met, without something
causing grief to other groups of the same organization.

The field of crafts is quite diversified, and there are those who
totally despise juried shows, just as there are those that live only
for juried shows. For an organization to be successful, it has to
understand both sides of the many facets associated with each issue,
and have something beneficial for all independencies concerned.

Being raised in the flower & plant business, I saw FTD grow from only
a few florists to becoming an internationally recognized organization
that insured the consumer got exactly what they paid for. In the
beginning, any florist who agreed to provide an arrangement, exactly
as pictured for a uniform price, could join. As FTD grew larger and
covered more options, a new joining member had to meet certain
criteria, such as a retail end display type walk-in cooler, not just a
storage cooler. This requirement hurt FTD more than it helped! Some
of the largest florists in the country had linear coolers, similar to
the refrigerated sections in grocery stores. And some smaller shops
that did excellent work, and/or small area coverage, who required no
walk-in cooler were also left out in the cold. Thus other
organizations started, such as Tele-Flora and others, to fill the
niche of those FTD pushed out.

When forming an organization, it is best to include the endless
possibilities or circumstances of all members. One group may only
specialize in one unique aspect of a craft, and even narrow that down
further to only a particular technique utilized in that craft. The
members of that group are by far more talented on that single
technique than the mass knowledge of all the other groups combined.
So they must be considered also!

The first stage of becoming a national or international organization,
is enticing existing clubs, groups, guilds, etc. to see some major
benefit of becoming a member. This is often by establishing a cure
for a common problem that faces all facets of the crafts fields. What
that problem or cure would be can only be determined by inclusion of
data from more and more members who can input the problems they are
facing in their respective fields and finding a common denominator
amongst all of them.

One cannot 'start-up' by imposing impossible standards that don't fit
all groups. It's better to build membership first, then allow the
membership to make motions for standardization of rules. Eventually,
the groups en masse, as an organization, can impose governing
standards on what quality of work is required to be given a particular
certificate of advancing ranks.

In days of yore, when each community was tightly woven and everybody
knew everybody else, it was very easy to keep abreast of which local
stores and shops offered quality work or service. Most people were
born, raised, married, worked and died all within a 20 to 30 mile
radius of their home.

Today things are quite different, the average family moves once every
five years. Some may be raised in the same town they were born, but
that all ends when they leave for college, meet someone from a
different state, get married, and keep relocating because of their
jobs. Many people don't even know their neighbor next door, much less
the reputation of the many businesses or clubs in their area.

This is why so many national and international organizations have come
into being. We don't see very many large organizations in the crafts
fields because of several aspects of this field, some of which have to
do with regional techniques, and simple unbroken prejudices based on a
persons location, such as you mentioned, the east vs the west side of
a state.

I personally do not know enough about the various different crafts
that are out there to even make a simple outline that would have any
significance to building an organization of that nature. But I do
have great organizational skills in the heirarchy that must exist to
make it work on a grand scale.

In the diversified field of crafts, almost anything or anyone is a
contribution to the arts in their own unique way. So any organization
that is built around the field of crafts, must be totally, of the
members, by the members and for the members.

And the best way to get started in a venture such as this, is to
INVITE all existing craft groups to join a common cause and become a
voting member in this cause.

Such an invitation would include an outline of how the organization
intends to form and set-up a governing body by the membership.
What it's intended and immediate goals are, and offer suggestions for
long range goals, such as certificates of expertise based on ones
knowledge of a particular phase of craft.

The things to stay away from completely are broad spectrum knowledge
of specific crafts. It is good to have a knowledge of all aspects of
a certain craft, but rediculous to expect someone to become a master
in each aspect of a particular craft, when their only desire may be to
perfect a certain technique.

In the trades for example, the unions have virtually locked out
thousands of perfectionists of one aspect of a trade, by making
overall knowledge the prime requirement. A watered down knowledge of
all aspects of a trade is more beneficial, than being an expert in
only one aspect of that trade.
The plumbing and Electrical fields have virtually been destroyed by
the union requirements, which were then imposed on governmental
licensing structures.
If I wanted my home rewired, I want it done by a perfectionist, who
has specializing in residential wiring techniques, not some watered
down electrician who knows how to wire skyscrapers and hospitals and
has a piece of paper saying he know how to do that big stuff, that in
their lifetime as an electrician may never work on. Those par
excellance electricians that specialize only in perfecting the art of
residential wiring and know nothing about how a hospital is wired,
cannot get licensed, thanks to union control of government.
Who wants a kidney specialist working on a brain tumor?

My point is, organizations can sometimes do more harm than good, if
they are not in complete control by the membership. And sometimes,
this even backfires as membership themselves can drive an organization
into disarray by ignoring their founding motto or creed in exchange
for forming an elite group while alienating those who really know
their trade or craft or art or hobby, etc.

TTUL
Gary

  #25  
Old January 13th 04, 05:01 AM
Sweet Sawdust
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Good Points.
How do we draw up a charter to include "all crafts" and what standards do we
use to allow members in at what level of expertise? Anyone want to bite on
this? How about some of you brits? you seem to have a good handle on
organization.
"Gary V. Deutschmann, Sr." wrote in message
...
Hi Sawdust

It does take some time to get from point A to point Z with a lot of
little steps along the way.

Many organizations where once an idea formed around a coffee table at
tea time that grew and grew and grew. Those that think locally
usually remain a local group, whereas those that think internationally
from the outset soon become the predominant group.

East meets west is a common problem in many states and provinces, but
not a problem that is unsurmountable, and in some cases, may even be
beneficial.

There are many fields of endeavor that have united for a common cause,
it was slow going at first but then built up momentum as more and more
groups joined the common cause. Most importantly, each group must
know that it has a say-so in the governing of the primary group. This
is important so that all groups needs are met, without something
causing grief to other groups of the same organization.

The field of crafts is quite diversified, and there are those who
totally despise juried shows, just as there are those that live only
for juried shows. For an organization to be successful, it has to
understand both sides of the many facets associated with each issue,
and have something beneficial for all independencies concerned.

Being raised in the flower & plant business, I saw FTD grow from only
a few florists to becoming an internationally recognized organization
that insured the consumer got exactly what they paid for. In the
beginning, any florist who agreed to provide an arrangement, exactly
as pictured for a uniform price, could join. As FTD grew larger and
covered more options, a new joining member had to meet certain
criteria, such as a retail end display type walk-in cooler, not just a
storage cooler. This requirement hurt FTD more than it helped! Some
of the largest florists in the country had linear coolers, similar to
the refrigerated sections in grocery stores. And some smaller shops
that did excellent work, and/or small area coverage, who required no
walk-in cooler were also left out in the cold. Thus other
organizations started, such as Tele-Flora and others, to fill the
niche of those FTD pushed out.

When forming an organization, it is best to include the endless
possibilities or circumstances of all members. One group may only
specialize in one unique aspect of a craft, and even narrow that down
further to only a particular technique utilized in that craft. The
members of that group are by far more talented on that single
technique than the mass knowledge of all the other groups combined.
So they must be considered also!

The first stage of becoming a national or international organization,
is enticing existing clubs, groups, guilds, etc. to see some major
benefit of becoming a member. This is often by establishing a cure
for a common problem that faces all facets of the crafts fields. What
that problem or cure would be can only be determined by inclusion of
data from more and more members who can input the problems they are
facing in their respective fields and finding a common denominator
amongst all of them.

One cannot 'start-up' by imposing impossible standards that don't fit
all groups. It's better to build membership first, then allow the
membership to make motions for standardization of rules. Eventually,
the groups en masse, as an organization, can impose governing
standards on what quality of work is required to be given a particular
certificate of advancing ranks.

In days of yore, when each community was tightly woven and everybody
knew everybody else, it was very easy to keep abreast of which local
stores and shops offered quality work or service. Most people were
born, raised, married, worked and died all within a 20 to 30 mile
radius of their home.

Today things are quite different, the average family moves once every
five years. Some may be raised in the same town they were born, but
that all ends when they leave for college, meet someone from a
different state, get married, and keep relocating because of their
jobs. Many people don't even know their neighbor next door, much less
the reputation of the many businesses or clubs in their area.

This is why so many national and international organizations have come
into being. We don't see very many large organizations in the crafts
fields because of several aspects of this field, some of which have to
do with regional techniques, and simple unbroken prejudices based on a
persons location, such as you mentioned, the east vs the west side of
a state.

I personally do not know enough about the various different crafts
that are out there to even make a simple outline that would have any
significance to building an organization of that nature. But I do
have great organizational skills in the heirarchy that must exist to
make it work on a grand scale.

In the diversified field of crafts, almost anything or anyone is a
contribution to the arts in their own unique way. So any organization
that is built around the field of crafts, must be totally, of the
members, by the members and for the members.

And the best way to get started in a venture such as this, is to
INVITE all existing craft groups to join a common cause and become a
voting member in this cause.

Such an invitation would include an outline of how the organization
intends to form and set-up a governing body by the membership.
What it's intended and immediate goals are, and offer suggestions for
long range goals, such as certificates of expertise based on ones
knowledge of a particular phase of craft.

The things to stay away from completely are broad spectrum knowledge
of specific crafts. It is good to have a knowledge of all aspects of
a certain craft, but rediculous to expect someone to become a master
in each aspect of a particular craft, when their only desire may be to
perfect a certain technique.

In the trades for example, the unions have virtually locked out
thousands of perfectionists of one aspect of a trade, by making
overall knowledge the prime requirement. A watered down knowledge of
all aspects of a trade is more beneficial, than being an expert in
only one aspect of that trade.
The plumbing and Electrical fields have virtually been destroyed by
the union requirements, which were then imposed on governmental
licensing structures.
If I wanted my home rewired, I want it done by a perfectionist, who
has specializing in residential wiring techniques, not some watered
down electrician who knows how to wire skyscrapers and hospitals and
has a piece of paper saying he know how to do that big stuff, that in
their lifetime as an electrician may never work on. Those par
excellance electricians that specialize only in perfecting the art of
residential wiring and know nothing about how a hospital is wired,
cannot get licensed, thanks to union control of government.
Who wants a kidney specialist working on a brain tumor?

My point is, organizations can sometimes do more harm than good, if
they are not in complete control by the membership. And sometimes,
this even backfires as membership themselves can drive an organization
into disarray by ignoring their founding motto or creed in exchange
for forming an elite group while alienating those who really know
their trade or craft or art or hobby, etc.

TTUL
Gary



  #26  
Old January 13th 04, 10:39 AM
R
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi Gary
Excellent post!
So, who would be interested in the idea of a global craft co-operative,
owned and run solely by it's membership?
Should the main purpose of this venture should be to recognise and certify
craftsmanship?
Presumably this could also facilitate an online craftsmans gallery/shop?
I'm interested, post a reply if you are too...
Richard


"Gary V. Deutschmann, Sr." wrote in message
...
Hi Sawdust

It does take some time to get from point A to point Z with a lot of
little steps along the way.

Many organizations where once an idea formed around a coffee table at
tea time that grew and grew and grew. Those that think locally
usually remain a local group, whereas those that think internationally
from the outset soon become the predominant group.

East meets west is a common problem in many states and provinces, but
not a problem that is unsurmountable, and in some cases, may even be
beneficial.

There are many fields of endeavor that have united for a common cause,
it was slow going at first but then built up momentum as more and more
groups joined the common cause. Most importantly, each group must
know that it has a say-so in the governing of the primary group. This
is important so that all groups needs are met, without something
causing grief to other groups of the same organization.

The field of crafts is quite diversified, and there are those who
totally despise juried shows, just as there are those that live only
for juried shows. For an organization to be successful, it has to
understand both sides of the many facets associated with each issue,
and have something beneficial for all independencies concerned.

Being raised in the flower & plant business, I saw FTD grow from only
a few florists to becoming an internationally recognized organization
that insured the consumer got exactly what they paid for. In the
beginning, any florist who agreed to provide an arrangement, exactly
as pictured for a uniform price, could join. As FTD grew larger and
covered more options, a new joining member had to meet certain
criteria, such as a retail end display type walk-in cooler, not just a
storage cooler. This requirement hurt FTD more than it helped! Some
of the largest florists in the country had linear coolers, similar to
the refrigerated sections in grocery stores. And some smaller shops
that did excellent work, and/or small area coverage, who required no
walk-in cooler were also left out in the cold. Thus other
organizations started, such as Tele-Flora and others, to fill the
niche of those FTD pushed out.

When forming an organization, it is best to include the endless
possibilities or circumstances of all members. One group may only
specialize in one unique aspect of a craft, and even narrow that down
further to only a particular technique utilized in that craft. The
members of that group are by far more talented on that single
technique than the mass knowledge of all the other groups combined.
So they must be considered also!

The first stage of becoming a national or international organization,
is enticing existing clubs, groups, guilds, etc. to see some major
benefit of becoming a member. This is often by establishing a cure
for a common problem that faces all facets of the crafts fields. What
that problem or cure would be can only be determined by inclusion of
data from more and more members who can input the problems they are
facing in their respective fields and finding a common denominator
amongst all of them.

One cannot 'start-up' by imposing impossible standards that don't fit
all groups. It's better to build membership first, then allow the
membership to make motions for standardization of rules. Eventually,
the groups en masse, as an organization, can impose governing
standards on what quality of work is required to be given a particular
certificate of advancing ranks.

In days of yore, when each community was tightly woven and everybody
knew everybody else, it was very easy to keep abreast of which local
stores and shops offered quality work or service. Most people were
born, raised, married, worked and died all within a 20 to 30 mile
radius of their home.

Today things are quite different, the average family moves once every
five years. Some may be raised in the same town they were born, but
that all ends when they leave for college, meet someone from a
different state, get married, and keep relocating because of their
jobs. Many people don't even know their neighbor next door, much less
the reputation of the many businesses or clubs in their area.

This is why so many national and international organizations have come
into being. We don't see very many large organizations in the crafts
fields because of several aspects of this field, some of which have to
do with regional techniques, and simple unbroken prejudices based on a
persons location, such as you mentioned, the east vs the west side of
a state.

I personally do not know enough about the various different crafts
that are out there to even make a simple outline that would have any
significance to building an organization of that nature. But I do
have great organizational skills in the heirarchy that must exist to
make it work on a grand scale.

In the diversified field of crafts, almost anything or anyone is a
contribution to the arts in their own unique way. So any organization
that is built around the field of crafts, must be totally, of the
members, by the members and for the members.

And the best way to get started in a venture such as this, is to
INVITE all existing craft groups to join a common cause and become a
voting member in this cause.

Such an invitation would include an outline of how the organization
intends to form and set-up a governing body by the membership.
What it's intended and immediate goals are, and offer suggestions for
long range goals, such as certificates of expertise based on ones
knowledge of a particular phase of craft.

The things to stay away from completely are broad spectrum knowledge
of specific crafts. It is good to have a knowledge of all aspects of
a certain craft, but rediculous to expect someone to become a master
in each aspect of a particular craft, when their only desire may be to
perfect a certain technique.

In the trades for example, the unions have virtually locked out
thousands of perfectionists of one aspect of a trade, by making
overall knowledge the prime requirement. A watered down knowledge of
all aspects of a trade is more beneficial, than being an expert in
only one aspect of that trade.
The plumbing and Electrical fields have virtually been destroyed by
the union requirements, which were then imposed on governmental
licensing structures.
If I wanted my home rewired, I want it done by a perfectionist, who
has specializing in residential wiring techniques, not some watered
down electrician who knows how to wire skyscrapers and hospitals and
has a piece of paper saying he know how to do that big stuff, that in
their lifetime as an electrician may never work on. Those par
excellance electricians that specialize only in perfecting the art of
residential wiring and know nothing about how a hospital is wired,
cannot get licensed, thanks to union control of government.
Who wants a kidney specialist working on a brain tumor?

My point is, organizations can sometimes do more harm than good, if
they are not in complete control by the membership. And sometimes,
this even backfires as membership themselves can drive an organization
into disarray by ignoring their founding motto or creed in exchange
for forming an elite group while alienating those who really know
their trade or craft or art or hobby, etc.

TTUL
Gary



  #27  
Old January 13th 04, 03:27 PM
Sweet Sawdust
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I am interested in the certification by all means. How do we do it? It
would be hard for me to look at your work to see if I find it acceptable
since I am not near enough to you to go look at it. If I were able to look
at it I might not have the expertise to now how good or bad it is. So how
do we judge? Maybe pick other groups that have already judged and accept
their judgment? i.e. Any on who has passed the Ky Craft Marketing jury is
eligible for membership at a certain level?
That way we could chose well known groups that have a standard and accept
their decisions. Any Ideas? And who heads the group? how do we chose
officers?
"R" wrote in message
...
Hi Gary
Excellent post!
So, who would be interested in the idea of a global craft co-operative,
owned and run solely by it's membership?
Should the main purpose of this venture should be to recognise and certify
craftsmanship?
Presumably this could also facilitate an online craftsmans gallery/shop?
I'm interested, post a reply if you are too...
Richard


"Gary V. Deutschmann, Sr." wrote in message
...
Hi Sawdust

It does take some time to get from point A to point Z with a lot of
little steps along the way.

Many organizations where once an idea formed around a coffee table at
tea time that grew and grew and grew. Those that think locally
usually remain a local group, whereas those that think internationally
from the outset soon become the predominant group.

East meets west is a common problem in many states and provinces, but
not a problem that is unsurmountable, and in some cases, may even be
beneficial.

There are many fields of endeavor that have united for a common cause,
it was slow going at first but then built up momentum as more and more
groups joined the common cause. Most importantly, each group must
know that it has a say-so in the governing of the primary group. This
is important so that all groups needs are met, without something
causing grief to other groups of the same organization.

The field of crafts is quite diversified, and there are those who
totally despise juried shows, just as there are those that live only
for juried shows. For an organization to be successful, it has to
understand both sides of the many facets associated with each issue,
and have something beneficial for all independencies concerned.

Being raised in the flower & plant business, I saw FTD grow from only
a few florists to becoming an internationally recognized organization
that insured the consumer got exactly what they paid for. In the
beginning, any florist who agreed to provide an arrangement, exactly
as pictured for a uniform price, could join. As FTD grew larger and
covered more options, a new joining member had to meet certain
criteria, such as a retail end display type walk-in cooler, not just a
storage cooler. This requirement hurt FTD more than it helped! Some
of the largest florists in the country had linear coolers, similar to
the refrigerated sections in grocery stores. And some smaller shops
that did excellent work, and/or small area coverage, who required no
walk-in cooler were also left out in the cold. Thus other
organizations started, such as Tele-Flora and others, to fill the
niche of those FTD pushed out.

When forming an organization, it is best to include the endless
possibilities or circumstances of all members. One group may only
specialize in one unique aspect of a craft, and even narrow that down
further to only a particular technique utilized in that craft. The
members of that group are by far more talented on that single
technique than the mass knowledge of all the other groups combined.
So they must be considered also!

The first stage of becoming a national or international organization,
is enticing existing clubs, groups, guilds, etc. to see some major
benefit of becoming a member. This is often by establishing a cure
for a common problem that faces all facets of the crafts fields. What
that problem or cure would be can only be determined by inclusion of
data from more and more members who can input the problems they are
facing in their respective fields and finding a common denominator
amongst all of them.

One cannot 'start-up' by imposing impossible standards that don't fit
all groups. It's better to build membership first, then allow the
membership to make motions for standardization of rules. Eventually,
the groups en masse, as an organization, can impose governing
standards on what quality of work is required to be given a particular
certificate of advancing ranks.

In days of yore, when each community was tightly woven and everybody
knew everybody else, it was very easy to keep abreast of which local
stores and shops offered quality work or service. Most people were
born, raised, married, worked and died all within a 20 to 30 mile
radius of their home.

Today things are quite different, the average family moves once every
five years. Some may be raised in the same town they were born, but
that all ends when they leave for college, meet someone from a
different state, get married, and keep relocating because of their
jobs. Many people don't even know their neighbor next door, much less
the reputation of the many businesses or clubs in their area.

This is why so many national and international organizations have come
into being. We don't see very many large organizations in the crafts
fields because of several aspects of this field, some of which have to
do with regional techniques, and simple unbroken prejudices based on a
persons location, such as you mentioned, the east vs the west side of
a state.

I personally do not know enough about the various different crafts
that are out there to even make a simple outline that would have any
significance to building an organization of that nature. But I do
have great organizational skills in the heirarchy that must exist to
make it work on a grand scale.

In the diversified field of crafts, almost anything or anyone is a
contribution to the arts in their own unique way. So any organization
that is built around the field of crafts, must be totally, of the
members, by the members and for the members.

And the best way to get started in a venture such as this, is to
INVITE all existing craft groups to join a common cause and become a
voting member in this cause.

Such an invitation would include an outline of how the organization
intends to form and set-up a governing body by the membership.
What it's intended and immediate goals are, and offer suggestions for
long range goals, such as certificates of expertise based on ones
knowledge of a particular phase of craft.

The things to stay away from completely are broad spectrum knowledge
of specific crafts. It is good to have a knowledge of all aspects of
a certain craft, but rediculous to expect someone to become a master
in each aspect of a particular craft, when their only desire may be to
perfect a certain technique.

In the trades for example, the unions have virtually locked out
thousands of perfectionists of one aspect of a trade, by making
overall knowledge the prime requirement. A watered down knowledge of
all aspects of a trade is more beneficial, than being an expert in
only one aspect of that trade.
The plumbing and Electrical fields have virtually been destroyed by
the union requirements, which were then imposed on governmental
licensing structures.
If I wanted my home rewired, I want it done by a perfectionist, who
has specializing in residential wiring techniques, not some watered
down electrician who knows how to wire skyscrapers and hospitals and
has a piece of paper saying he know how to do that big stuff, that in
their lifetime as an electrician may never work on. Those par
excellance electricians that specialize only in perfecting the art of
residential wiring and know nothing about how a hospital is wired,
cannot get licensed, thanks to union control of government.
Who wants a kidney specialist working on a brain tumor?

My point is, organizations can sometimes do more harm than good, if
they are not in complete control by the membership. And sometimes,
this even backfires as membership themselves can drive an organization
into disarray by ignoring their founding motto or creed in exchange
for forming an elite group while alienating those who really know
their trade or craft or art or hobby, etc.

TTUL
Gary





  #28  
Old January 13th 04, 03:39 PM
R
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LOL - you obviously havent tried to travel by train over here then!
By the members, For the members...

What is the aim of the organisation? My view is this:
"A global co-operative which provides formal qualification to craftsmen"

First, outline the proposed role of the organisation. Give the organisation
guidelines, they can always be moved, but it will give people something to
work to in the meantime.
Second, advertise for membership. An organisation such as this is nothing
without a strong and high volume of members.
Third, create the charter. Once you have the people, you can start thrashing
about what it is you need to create.

Anyone should be allowed to be a member regardless of level of expertise or
trade - membership should not automatically give the member "craftsman"
status.

With regard to people attaining a "Craftsman" certificate, a voting system
could be used (one vote per member) for fairness. Applicants should show
detailed examples of their work, with explanations of technique and any past
experience they have. These certificates should last for one year only.
The general public should be able to check the sttus of a "Certified
Craftsman" by logging into the Co-operatives website where a list of
qualified craftsman will be available.

Membership should be on a co-operative basis, this promotes ethics and
fairness. Membership should also be fee based, but could include advertising
and space on the organisations website. Basic fee for joining (without
advertising or space) should be £1 or $1 equivalent.

Anyways, that's about all I can think of off the top of my head, now back to
sorting out the railways
Best wishes
Richard
(Uncertified Craftsman of the Global Craftsmans Co-operative)
--
www.kasstzam.com & www.kasstzam.com/photo
--
"Sweet Sawdust" wrote in message
...
Good Points.
How do we draw up a charter to include "all crafts" and what standards do

we
use to allow members in at what level of expertise? Anyone want to bite

on
this? How about some of you brits? you seem to have a good handle on
organization.




  #29  
Old January 13th 04, 04:56 PM
Gary V. Deutschmann, Sr.
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The ultimate goal would be to provide incentives to advance in one's
particular field as well as learn other fields, in which they can earn
varying degrees of achievement levels, including but not limited to
Master Craftsperson.
As diversified as crafts can be, there could end up being literally
thousands of possibilities and types of Certificates.

A crafter could be Certified at various levels by a group of their
peers or club that is a member of the organization.

There should also be different membership levels also, meaning,
individual membership (which would include student, adult, senior &
family for example), club memberships, corporate memberships for those
who supply the crafts industry, etc.
Clubs earn certificates on their expertise at training, and even
perhaps awards for contesting, etc.

There are millions of ideas and opportunities that can abound, which
is why the organization needs to be run by the membership, for the
membership, rather than have one governing body dictate everything.

A member club should be required to offer certain helps and provide
training (to their members, whether those members are members of the
organization or not) to become, for lack of a better word, Chartered.

It will be quite some time before enough clubs and peer groups are
assembled to even think about the aspect of certifying members
regarding their abilities. But it should be the primary eventual
purpose of the club. To give STATUS and AUTHORITY behind the
achievement certificates they give out. It should be Extremely HARD
but not impossible to attain the level of Master Craftsman in a given
field. Like earning belts in Karate for example.

It will take someone who is already a devoted craftsperson in each
field to draw up the requirements for that given technique.
Such certificates could include stages such as Novice, Journeyman,
Advanced, Extra, & Master, the names are not important as long as they
are uniform throughout the organization and easily recognized by those
seeking varying levels of craftspersons for specific jobs or tasks.
And their work would also be priced according to their level of
expertise in that particular craft technique.

Like getting a brake job or lube job on a car, does not require the
expertise or cost of a master transmission mechanic.
You don't hire a Doctor at $1,700.00 per hour to whitewash your picket
fence, when it can be done properly by a Novice painter for 8 bucks an
hour. By the same token, one would not want a Novice painter
attempting to design a faux finish in your foyer, where an Extra class
certificate or above should be required.

TTUL
Gary

  #30  
Old January 13th 04, 05:17 PM
Gary V. Deutschmann, Sr.
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Default

Hi Sawdust

The organization would not have the clout or authority to make
decisions on Certification, until long after it is formed and those
with the ability to oversee such certification have become members and
a peer group or committee has been formed to keep things on the up and
up and in accord with standard accepted practices in each technique.

I can easily visualize millions of members belonging to thousands of
clubs, which make up area Charters who are in Zones led by Regional
groups all under the direction of one Headquarters.
Clubs, Charters and Zones would all be strictly volunteer by election
of the local membership. A Charter member group would elect from
amongst all Charter members in their Zone, one Charter member group to
act as Zone.
All members within a region would vote for the officers at Regional
level and All organization members would vote for those running for
office in HQ. Most of HQ would eventually be salaried positions and
only certain positions at the Regional level, all the rest would be
strictly volunteer.

One could look at other national organizations, such as the ARRL
(Amateur Radio Relay League) or PWP (Parent Without Partners) or FTD
(Florists Transworld Delivery) any number of other international
groups to see how they are structured.
Or check out the heirarchial setup of the Catholic or Mormon churches,
both are quite diversified in how the heirarchy is established.

Once enough groups belong to the Organization with an ability to make
fair judgement of anothers work, the Organization can move into the
capacity of authorizing a standardized certification programs.

No start-up organization becomes internationally recognized from the
onset. It takes time, honesty, integrity and know-how to become the
authority that consumers will recognize and trust.

One does not want the integrity of the group to be watered down by
allowing automatic certification for existing groups, regardless of
their existing local or national status!

It would render the authority of the Organization about as useless as
the word "REAL" on dairy products, namely cheeses. Which we all know
only means that some, maybe even only one drop of, milk is used in the
process of making the product.

Wouldn't it be more beneficial to all for the club to be recognized as
the prime authority, with the clout of the Smithsonian or the Good
Housekeeping seal?

This does not mean that at the onset, the ideals of the Organization
should not be stressed. In fact, the ultimate eventual purpose of the
Organization, as a Certification Authority, should be carefully
planned and proclaimed loudly from day one.

TTUL
Gary

 




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