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Salt and vinegar pickling solution?



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 2nd 05, 02:50 AM
J. Dawson
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Default Salt and vinegar pickling solution?

Hi,

I've read in numerous places that it's possible to pickle copper and
silver after soldering with a solution of salt and vinegar, but nowhere
have I found information relating to proportions of the ingredients.

As a beginner at soldering metal, I'm interested in trying this at least
for my first few pickling attempts before moving on to "real" chemicals
which, to be honest, scare me more than a little!

Does anyone have any ideas about amounts and how effective this method is?

TIA,

Janie
Ads
  #2  
Old February 2nd 05, 03:18 AM
Peter W.. Rowe,
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Default

On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 17:50:41 -0800, in ?? "J. Dawson"
wrote:

Hi,

I've read in numerous places that it's possible to pickle copper and
silver after soldering with a solution of salt and vinegar, but nowhere
have I found information relating to proportions of the ingredients.

As a beginner at soldering metal, I'm interested in trying this at least
for my first few pickling attempts before moving on to "real" chemicals
which, to be honest, scare me more than a little!

Does anyone have any ideas about amounts and how effective this method is?

TIA,

Janie


Household vinegar is a very dilute acid, but as an acid it contributes hydrogen ions.
Salt is a neutralized acid, but contributes chloride ion (and sodium ions) to a
solution. when the two are mixed, what results, chemically, is roughly the same as a
very dilute hydrochloric acid. That has the ability to do *some* cleaning on copper
alloys, so as a weak pickle, it will have some effect on copper. The exact proportions
aren't written in stone, or for that matter, anywhere. make up your own and see if it
works. If you like the mix, and want stronger and fast (using household vinegar, it
will be -s-l-o-o-w-w-w--) you could go to a photo/darkroom supplier and get glacial
acetic acid, which is the high concentration version of vinegar. Note that household
vinegar is something like 2 or 4 percent acetic acid in water. glacial acetic acid is
virtually as concentrated as it can be and still be stable. If you're scared of
chemicals, this is worth being a bit scared of. But you could mix a stronger pickle if
you're interested in experimenting.

Now, with that said, I'll also mention that vinegar and salt won't be as good a pickle
on silver. the choride ion in the mix will tend to form a film of silver chloride on
the surface, which isn't soluable, and then prevents further chemical action.

I'm assuming that what you wish to do is to remove the flux and fire scale after
soldering. Ordinary hot water will remove most fluxes, but the oxides from fire scale
need an acid.

Vinegar and salt, as noted, can do some of this, but it's not known as an especially
effective pickle, and there are better ways that are still quite safe.

Instead of the vinegar and salt, get some citric acid. yeah, the word acid is in the
name, but this dry powder is the acid ingredient in lemons and oranges (you actually can
pickle metal with lemon juice, but as with household vinegar, it's a bit slow...) About
the main caution is try not to breath the dry powder's dust. While citric acid pickles
are still slower than the normally used mixes, they're essentially non-toxic and safe to
use. Again, the exact recipe isn't critical. Dump some in hot water (All pickles work
a LOT faster when warm or hot). If too slow, try adding some more.

And a comment on those :"real" chemicals you're scared of. While healthy respect of
materials and chemicals is a good thing, don't be cowed by the words chemical or acid.
they are just words, and don't automatically mean something dangerous. The old time
traditional pickle for silverwork was dilute sulphuric acid. The concentrated acid is
indeed quite dangerous, and dilute acids need some respect too. But few people use
actual sulphuric acid any more. What's now commonly used is (prepare for a chemical
name...) sodium bisulphate, which is a salt of sulphuric acid. It's solutions are also
acidic, but much safer than the straight acid to handle. The chemical is widely sold in
hardware stores that sell pool and spa chemicals, as a means to lower the ph (acidity)
in pool water. Sold under names like "Spa-down:" or "ph minus", or the like, and it's
not costly. Much cheaper to buy it this way, than to buy the versions packaged for use
as jewelry pickles, and in fact, the pool supply chemicals seem to actually be better
quality/purity chemical, in addition to being cheaper. Again, the recipe is simple
enough. Dump some in hot water. I'd guess a quarter cup in a quart of water will give
a good active pickle.

Yes, this is a real chemical, and yes, it does require some respect. But it should not
elicit fear. It's main danger, assuming you are able to avoid the temptation to drink
the stuff (it's pretty sour tasting, so I don't recommend this, though small amounts
wouldn't hurt you much) is that it can be corrosive to metals like iron and steel, as
well as to some fabrics, notably cotton. If you spill this on your blue jeans, the next
time you wash those jeans those areas exposed to the pickle will disintegrate in the
wash. And if you're pickle pot is actively boiling, the fumes are kinda noxious and not
good for you. So don't boil it. Use it just nicely warm, and keep it covered. Other
than that, you really don't need to be too worried about it. If you have small children
or pets in the same area, take precautions to keep them out of the pickle pot.

Frankly, your main safety concerns when getting into soldering are not the pickle
chemicals. It's the need for fire safety around lit torches, any needed precautions
with torch tanks, avoiding burns from hot metal, and dealing with fumes from fluxes
(even the non-fluoride fluxes can produce some pretty noxious fumes) and some solders
(the very easy ones, that may contain cadmium, in particular, are dangerous to use
without good ventilation. The pickle is perhaps the least dangerous part of the
operation. That's not to say it is totally safe and idiot proof, but it's not like
it's some highly toxic chemical.

Hope that helps.

Peter Rowe
  #3  
Old February 3rd 05, 02:31 AM
Bob Hensley
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Posts: n/a
Default


We have had very good luck with an alum & water solution in pickling silver.
Periodically, my wife and I visit the relatives in Texas, and we carry the
basic jewelry shop with us since we have plenty of down time on vacation to
design new stuff and expose the nieces and nephews to making jewelry. We use
the alum in a crock pot on the low setting( it works much faster heated).

We do use the pool chemical Peter spoke of at home, but we figure the alum
is safer around kids who aren't "shop savvy". Of course, we treat the alum
solution the same way we do the sodium bisulphate so they don't get the
wrong idea... don't want them dipping their hands in it when they visit us!


  #4  
Old February 3rd 05, 02:31 AM
Bill Kuykendall
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Default

It should be good on fish if nothing else.

Bill
"J. Dawson" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I've read in numerous places that it's possible to pickle copper and
silver after soldering with a solution of salt and vinegar, but nowhere
have I found information relating to proportions of the ingredients.

As a beginner at soldering metal, I'm interested in trying this at least
for my first few pickling attempts before moving on to "real" chemicals
which, to be honest, scare me more than a little!

Does anyone have any ideas about amounts and how effective this method is?

TIA,

Janie


  #5  
Old February 3rd 05, 05:16 PM
Alan Balmer
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Posts: n/a
Default

On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 02:18:20 GMT, "Peter W.. Rowe,"
wrote:

snip article on pickling

Thank you for another excellent article. In reviewing the archives, I
see that you have posted many articles sharing your considerable
expertise. Have you written any books? (I did do a quick search, but
unfortunately, your name is not uncommon.)

--
Al Balmer
Balmer Consulting

  #6  
Old February 3rd 05, 05:25 PM
Peter W.. Rowe,
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 08:14:36 -0800, in àõ Alan Balmer wrote:

Thank you for another excellent article. In reviewing the archives, I
see that you have posted many articles sharing your considerable
expertise. Have you written any books? (I did do a quick search, but
unfortunately, your name is not uncommon.)


Mr. Balmer,

No, I've not written any books, at least not yet. I've been asked to edit an upcoming
book that will be part of a Ganoksin project to publish some of the information that's
been shared by many people on the Orchid mail list over the years. But that project is
only just getting started (my end of it, that is. The first volume in the planned
series is almost ready, I believe.) Part of the reason you see so many articles from me
is simply that as the moderator of this newsgroup since 1997, its rather easy for me to
jump in now and then, and sometimes I just don't quite know when to keep quiet...
(grin) I am not aware of all THAT many other people with my name, at least not who
share my middle initial, and none of them that I know of, where that initial stands for
"Willoughby". But just "Peter Rowe", does indeed seem not all THAT uncommon. If you
include my middle initial in a Google search, I know I was surprised to find just how
high a percentage of the several thousand hits that turn up, seem to point to something
i've written in rec.crafts.jewelry or on the Orchid list over the years. Kind of
scary... Some of it is good, I guess. Some, though, I wish would disappear... Such
is the nature of the internet, however. Write it, no matter how trivial, and it gets a
life of it's own...

cheers

Peter Rowe
  #7  
Old February 4th 05, 07:13 AM
Gordon
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Posts: n/a
Default

I use salt, sugar and rice vinegar to pickle salmon. Good stuff!
Gordon :)
"J. Dawson" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I've read in numerous places that it's possible to pickle copper and
silver after soldering with a solution of salt and vinegar, but nowhere
have I found information relating to proportions of the ingredients.

As a beginner at soldering metal, I'm interested in trying this at least
for my first few pickling attempts before moving on to "real" chemicals
which, to be honest, scare me more than a little!

Does anyone have any ideas about amounts and how effective this method is?

TIA,

Janie



  #8  
Old February 4th 05, 05:30 PM
Ted Frater
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

J. Dawson wrote:
Hi,

I've read in numerous places that it's possible to pickle copper and
silver after soldering with a solution of salt and vinegar, but nowhere
have I found information relating to proportions of the ingredients.

As a beginner at soldering metal, I'm interested in trying this at least
for my first few pickling attempts before moving on to "real" chemicals
which, to be honest, scare me more than a little!

Does anyone have any ideas about amounts and how effective this method is?

TIA,

Janie

Janie,
You have had encyclopedic replies to your pickling question. Its
probably enough for you to work with for some time.
However the question of acid hasnt been mentioned much so I might be
able to help you here.
dont be afraid of acids, IF you have the practical information on how
to use them they will be a great help to you in your s/smithing.
the 1st one to look at is Sulphuric.
now you can go down the complicated route by going to a pharmachutical
co and getting the concentrate etc. How ever theres a much easier way to
get and use this acid (which I use) as its the simplest way.
Most car batteries use this acid in a dilute form, you cna get these
from your recycling center or from a friend who changes one from their car.
this is what you do.
Get a plastic wash up bowl and use outside on some hard surface near
a drain , unscrew the filler plugs on the battery, and with a pair of
wash up gloves on pick up the battery and turn upside down into the bowl.
this will drain out the acid.
when drained lift out the battery put back the plugs and pour over
it some wash up water, its mildly alkaline to rinse off any acid drops.

Take you bowl and with a plastic funnel and a suitable plastic screw top
container, pour your acid into this. Not a empty food /drinks container.

Screw on the cap and rinse off as before inc your gloves.
Take your battery to a proper place for disposal, and label and mark
the plastic container properly. Store in a cool dry place on a floor.
Now youve your acid heres how to use it.
If you can use a reactive flux like commercial silver brazing operatives
use and cover your work with it you wont get firestain, in fact there
are fluxes that actually dissolve thes oxides out of the metal. thats
another subject alltogether.
do your soldering and with appropriate tweezers or tongs dependent on
the size of your piece drop into clear cold water whilst its still hot.
this will thermally crack off most of the flux residues. When cold
remove and drop into a small glass jar say a 1lb jam jar half full with
your acid.
Dont use any metal tongs to remove as youll get contamination of your
acid and get electrolytic plating.
Cover your acid pot with onother glass cover not a metal one! and put
somewhere where it wont get trodden on or kicked over.
You can use this acid pot for copper after using it for silver. But you
cant do it the other way round.

Leave in the acid for 5 to 10 mins and take a look at it. It should
be nicely white and slightly frosted.

Rinse well and dry off. I do this with a slow soft torch as its so much
faster. the I use a very fine steel or preferably stainless steel wire
brush on my polishing spindle a slow one will do and lightly brush all
over. To prepare this wheel run it against some fine emery paper.

Always have lots of rinsing water about when handling acids.
hope this helps.
Ted Frater An old sweat of a silver smith.


  #9  
Old February 5th 05, 02:28 AM
Alan Balmer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 16:30:25 GMT, Ted Frater
wrote:

J. Dawson wrote:
Hi,

I've read in numerous places that it's possible to pickle copper and
silver after soldering with a solution of salt and vinegar, but nowhere
have I found information relating to proportions of the ingredients.

As a beginner at soldering metal, I'm interested in trying this at least
for my first few pickling attempts before moving on to "real" chemicals
which, to be honest, scare me more than a little!

Does anyone have any ideas about amounts and how effective this method is?

TIA,

Janie

Janie,
You have had encyclopedic replies to your pickling question. Its
probably enough for you to work with for some time.
However the question of acid hasnt been mentioned much so I might be
able to help you here.
dont be afraid of acids, IF you have the practical information on how
to use them they will be a great help to you in your s/smithing.
the 1st one to look at is Sulphuric.


Sulphuric acid at the concentration used in batteries is safer than
the concentrated stuff, but I would not say "don't be afraid of it." A
healthy fear is good, because this acid can not only burn flesh, but
eat many substances it comes in contact with.

now you can go down the complicated route by going to a pharmachutical
co and getting the concentrate etc. How ever theres a much easier way to
get and use this acid (which I use) as its the simplest way.
Most car batteries use this acid in a dilute form, you cna get these
from your recycling center or from a friend who changes one from their car.
this is what you do.
Get a plastic wash up bowl and use outside on some hard surface near
a drain , unscrew the filler plugs on the battery, and with a pair of
wash up gloves on


Perhaps you should elaborate on what you mean by "wash up gloves." I
certainly don't know what you mean. What materials are suitable and
safe?

pick up the battery and turn upside down into the bowl.
this will drain out the acid.
when drained lift out the battery put back the plugs and pour over
it some wash up water, its mildly alkaline to rinse off any acid drops.


Again, what do you mean by "wash up water"? Common tap water is
certainly not alkaline enough to neutralize much acid, and in fact may
be mildly acidic itself. I would suggest using a baking soda solution
and adding it until there is no reaction, plus a bit.

Take you bowl and with a plastic funnel and a suitable plastic screw top
container, pour your acid into this. Not a empty food /drinks container.

Screw on the cap and rinse off as before inc your gloves.
Take your battery to a proper place for disposal, and label and mark
the plastic container properly. Store in a cool dry place on a floor.
Now youve your acid heres how to use it.
If you can use a reactive flux like commercial silver brazing operatives
use and cover your work with it you wont get firestain, in fact there
are fluxes that actually dissolve thes oxides out of the metal. thats
another subject alltogether.
do your soldering and with appropriate tweezers or tongs dependent on
the size of your piece drop into clear cold water whilst its still hot.
this will thermally crack off most of the flux residues. When cold
remove and drop into a small glass jar say a 1lb jam jar half full with
your acid.
Dont use any metal tongs to remove as youll get contamination of your
acid and get electrolytic plating.
Cover your acid pot with onother glass cover not a metal one! and put
somewhere where it wont get trodden on or kicked over.
You can use this acid pot for copper after using it for silver. But you
cant do it the other way round.

Leave in the acid for 5 to 10 mins and take a look at it. It should
be nicely white and slightly frosted.

Rinse well and dry off. I do this with a slow soft torch as its so much
faster. the I use a very fine steel or preferably stainless steel wire
brush on my polishing spindle a slow one will do and lightly brush all
over. To prepare this wheel run it against some fine emery paper.

Always have lots of rinsing water about when handling acids.
hope this helps.
Ted Frater An old sweat of a silver smith.


--
Al Balmer
Balmer Consulting

  #10  
Old February 5th 05, 05:00 AM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 01:28:23 GMT, Alan Balmer
wrote:

On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 16:30:25 GMT, Ted Frater
wrote:

J. Dawson wrote:
Hi,

I've read in numerous places that it's possible to pickle copper and
silver after soldering with a solution of salt and vinegar, but nowhere
have I found information relating to proportions of the ingredients.

As a beginner at soldering metal, I'm interested in trying this at least
for my first few pickling attempts before moving on to "real" chemicals
which, to be honest, scare me more than a little!

Does anyone have any ideas about amounts and how effective this method is?

TIA,

Janie

Janie,
You have had encyclopedic replies to your pickling question. Its
probably enough for you to work with for some time.
However the question of acid hasnt been mentioned much so I might be
able to help you here.
dont be afraid of acids, IF you have the practical information on how
to use them they will be a great help to you in your s/smithing.
the 1st one to look at is Sulphuric.


Sulphuric acid at the concentration used in batteries is safer than
the concentrated stuff, but I would not say "don't be afraid of it." A
healthy fear is good, because this acid can not only burn flesh, but
eat many substances it comes in contact with.


Sulfuric acid is death on organic fabrics.

When I was in college, I saw an expensive wool dress some sorority
type was wearing develop honking big holes almost instantly because
her lab partner (another sorority type) turned suddenly with an
eyedropper full of concentrated sulfuric acid in her hand. They bumped
into each other and the eyedropper sprayed acid all over the sheath
dress.

As for battery acid -- I ruined some work shirts and a couple of pairs
of jeans that way.

Of course, as the man said, it's all in knowing how to handle the
stuff.

--RC


Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit;
Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad

-- Suzie B
 




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