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#11
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Don't you think you're not "gifted" enough for this book to be about you.
The "gift" it refers to is the ability to survive a childhood in conditions where what you are naturally is "wrong", is not what a you are wanted or expected to be. Tina "Tante Lina" wrote in message k.net... Diana Curtis wrote in message ... Dad and my mom divorced when I was 18. I knew him all my life. From what I can see from the perspective of age he never knew me well except from the veiw that I was a woman and the only woman I ever saw him treat respectfully was his mother. I also see a lot of emotional incest going on in my childhood... This would explain why he would not like seeing you with another man. and lots of discounting of my feelings, opinions, thoughts and ideas. So I'm still trying to understand - at one time, he did express his disapproval? Then, at some point, he stopped saying it, but the body language is still there? Do you remember what happened at the time he stopped verbalizing it? Was it at the time of the divorce? At a certain age? After a blowup / estrangement with one of your siblings? I know he wanted to be a history teacher but instead worked all his life at a more lucrative job. My sister tried till the day she died to get him to *see* her and my older brother distanced himself from him, for similar reasons to mine. We just couldnt handle the feeling that we were and always would be a huge disappointment to him. The one thought that came to my mind when I first read this, was the same as Lee's: he's disappointed in himself, and this is the way he deals with it. I know I cant change him, talking to him would be pointless because he would hear the words but since he thinks the problem is me he wouldnt be affected by it. Even though your first job is to protect yourself, I would not rule out a miracle for two reasons. The book Passages describes how after midlife, men start to explore their feminine side, women start to explore their masculine side. So for instance, many women start successful businesses in the second half of their lives. Men often get very wrapped up in their grandkids. Although, at some time long ago, his emotional development was arrested, as he gets older there is going to be a natural pull toward family. Also, as people age, they begin to experience the deaths of friends, colleagues, and loved ones. Eventually this leads them to confront the possibility of their own life's end. It's a natural desire to want to make peace with one's past while there's still time. These impulses may be stirring in your father, however weakly. I say this because I had a similar problem with my father. Although I "solved" it by removing myself from him, and stopping him from saying the things that hurt me, I now wish I had occasionally had it out with him - to express my side of the story, if nothing else. He died unexpectedly at a relatively young age, and now I will never get the chance to say my peace - whatever his reaction. I agree with Celine, working with a counselor would help you draft that letter you need to write him - to get it out there while he's still living. Whether he changes or not, you will feel better. And there's the million to one chance he might surprise you. Sometimes we have to be content with planting a seed. What I would like it to stop stewing about it. What a small thing to let ruin my days.... as with Kathy, there is one person who doesnt think much of me and the rest of the world thinks Im ok. Why do I listen to the old tapes and stew? Unproductive. Have you ever read the book "Drama of the Gifted Child" by Alice Miller? I think it would be very cathartic for you to read, and Kathy too. It's about how damaged parents have children not to love, but to be loved. How they put their children in the position of parenting their parents, and how this gets passed down through the generations. Thanks for letting me vent. You've got to get it out there! Not too many chances in everyday conversation to talk about these things... * TL * |
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#12
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I'll add another voice to those endorsing Alice Miller's thoughts and
writings. "The Drama of the Gifted Child" is the first of several books she has written, and she refines her ideas further in each one. I like the characterization of survivor/thriver Laura "Diana Curtis" wrote in message ... Thank you for explaining that. I call my friends and myself who are walking similar paths suvivor/thrivers. We chose not to merely survive but to grow past the damage. Diana -- http://photos.yahoo.com/lunamom44 "Christina Peterson" wrote in message news:1059338138.318583@prawn... Don't you think you're not "gifted" enough for this book to be about you. The "gift" it refers to is the ability to survive a childhood in conditions where what you are naturally is "wrong", is not what a you are wanted or expected to be. Tina Have you ever read the book "Drama of the Gifted Child" by Alice Miller? I think it would be very cathartic for you to read, and Kathy too. It's about how damaged parents have children not to love, but to be loved. How they put their children in the position of parenting their parents, and how this gets passed down through the generations. Thanks for letting me vent. You've got to get it out there! Not too many chances in everyday conversation to talk about these things... * TL * |
#13
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Thank you for explaining that.
I call my friends and myself who are walking similar paths suvivor/thrivers. We chose not to merely survive but to grow past the damage. Diana -- http://photos.yahoo.com/lunamom44 "Christina Peterson" wrote in message news:1059338138.318583@prawn... Don't you think you're not "gifted" enough for this book to be about you. The "gift" it refers to is the ability to survive a childhood in conditions where what you are naturally is "wrong", is not what a you are wanted or expected to be. Tina "Tante Lina" wrote in message k.net... Diana Curtis wrote in message ... Dad and my mom divorced when I was 18. I knew him all my life. From what I can see from the perspective of age he never knew me well except from the veiw that I was a woman and the only woman I ever saw him treat respectfully was his mother. I also see a lot of emotional incest going on in my childhood... This would explain why he would not like seeing you with another man. and lots of discounting of my feelings, opinions, thoughts and ideas. So I'm still trying to understand - at one time, he did express his disapproval? Then, at some point, he stopped saying it, but the body language is still there? Do you remember what happened at the time he stopped verbalizing it? Was it at the time of the divorce? At a certain age? After a blowup / estrangement with one of your siblings? I know he wanted to be a history teacher but instead worked all his life at a more lucrative job. My sister tried till the day she died to get him to *see* her and my older brother distanced himself from him, for similar reasons to mine. We just couldnt handle the feeling that we were and always would be a huge disappointment to him. The one thought that came to my mind when I first read this, was the same as Lee's: he's disappointed in himself, and this is the way he deals with it. I know I cant change him, talking to him would be pointless because he would hear the words but since he thinks the problem is me he wouldnt be affected by it. Even though your first job is to protect yourself, I would not rule out a miracle for two reasons. The book Passages describes how after midlife, men start to explore their feminine side, women start to explore their masculine side. So for instance, many women start successful businesses in the second half of their lives. Men often get very wrapped up in their grandkids. Although, at some time long ago, his emotional development was arrested, as he gets older there is going to be a natural pull toward family. Also, as people age, they begin to experience the deaths of friends, colleagues, and loved ones. Eventually this leads them to confront the possibility of their own life's end. It's a natural desire to want to make peace with one's past while there's still time. These impulses may be stirring in your father, however weakly. I say this because I had a similar problem with my father. Although I "solved" it by removing myself from him, and stopping him from saying the things that hurt me, I now wish I had occasionally had it out with him - to express my side of the story, if nothing else. He died unexpectedly at a relatively young age, and now I will never get the chance to say my peace - whatever his reaction. I agree with Celine, working with a counselor would help you draft that letter you need to write him - to get it out there while he's still living. Whether he changes or not, you will feel better. And there's the million to one chance he might surprise you. Sometimes we have to be content with planting a seed. What I would like it to stop stewing about it. What a small thing to let ruin my days.... as with Kathy, there is one person who doesnt think much of me and the rest of the world thinks Im ok. Why do I listen to the old tapes and stew? Unproductive. Have you ever read the book "Drama of the Gifted Child" by Alice Miller? I think it would be very cathartic for you to read, and Kathy too. It's about how damaged parents have children not to love, but to be loved. How they put their children in the position of parenting their parents, and how this gets passed down through the generations. Thanks for letting me vent. You've got to get it out there! Not too many chances in everyday conversation to talk about these things... * TL * |
#14
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On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 20:13:29 GMT, "Christina Peterson"
wrote: I know I cant change him, talking to him would be pointless because he would hear the words but since he thinks the problem is me he wouldnt be affected by it. What I would like it to stop stewing about it. What a small thing to let ruin my days.... as with Kathy, there is one person who doesnt think much of me and the rest of the world thinks Im ok. Why do I listen to the old tapes and stew? Unproductive. I go with the advice of sending him a letter. You are still carrying all the guilt and garbage that were heaped on you as a child. Tell him what he did, how it affected you and what you would like to see happen. If nothing else you will have sent some of the weight you are carrying back where it belongs. And who knows? Shoot, I figure, at the rate I'm going, I ought to be out from under all the crap I'm carrying around by the time I'm seventy or so. I'll still have time to become the Grandma Moses of silver and glass. Barbara Dream Master www.dreamweaverstudio.com "We've got two lives, one we're given, the other one we make." Mary Chapin Carpenter |
#16
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On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 18:19:17 GMT, "Tante Lina"
wrote: The book Passages describes how after midlife, men start to explore their feminine side, women start to explore their masculine side. So for instance, many women start successful businesses in the second half of their lives. Men often get very wrapped up in their grandkids. Although, at some time long ago, his emotional development was arrested, as he gets older there is going to be a natural pull toward family. I think I got this one backward. All my life people told me that I should have been born male. I always liked to climb trees, then mountains, work with tools, run things, etc. I liked being boss on the job and run the household at home. Now, I just dote on my kids and wish I had been a better mother when they were younger. Even though they are both doing well in life and don't see me as having been a "bad mother". Well, except during that adolescent phase when all kids think their parents are terrible. Also, as people age, It's a natural desire to want to make peace with one's past while there's still time. I say this because I had a similar problem with my father. I now wish I had occasionally had it out with him - to express my side of the story, if nothing else. He died unexpectedly at a relatively young age, and now I will never get the chance to say my peace - Maybe you need to write a letter to him. Say your piece. I stood on my natural father's grave and vented to get it out of my system. Now I tend his irises (which I brought home to St. Louis) and visualize his happiness and amazement at who I have turned out to be. He's beyond the body now. I'm sure he's seeing much more clearly. Barbara Dream Master www.dreamweaverstudio.com "We've got two lives, one we're given, the other one we make." Mary Chapin Carpenter |
#17
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Barbara Otterson wrote in message ...
On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 18:19:17 GMT, "Tante Lina" wrote: I say this because I had a similar problem with my father. I now wish I had occasionally had it out with him - to express my side of the story, if nothing else. He died unexpectedly at a relatively young age, and now I will never get the chance to say my peace - Maybe you need to write a letter to him. Say your piece. I stood on my natural father's grave and vented to get it out of my system. Now I tend his irises (which I brought home to St. Louis) and visualize his happiness and amazement at who I have turned out to be. He's beyond the body now. I'm sure he's seeing much more clearly. A very good idea. It is cool that you have something of him with you there. I think a person's spirit would be more likely found in their garden than their grave. My father is buried 2700 miles away, but if I'm ever up there, I'll do what you did. Long before he passed, because I was a psychology student, I wrote those unsent letters, journaled, did active imagination and dreamwork, so much that I thought I had my part of things worked out. In retrospect it would have been much better to have it out with him in person, even if it hurt. We did reconcile by phone just before he died, but he was in too much pain for me to want to cause any more distress. * TL * |
#18
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On 28 Jul 2003 02:15:59 GMT, (Lee S.
Billings) wrote: Some years back, I found a magazine article titled "Not The Child I Had In Mind", which was about the same thing. I can't remember now what magazine it was or who wrote it, and a Google search on the phrase brings up no hits, but I remember reading it and feeling as though a light bulb had gone off in my brain. I was *definitely* not the child my parents had in mind, and they never learned to be comfortable with who I *was*. Celine Isn't that a bitch? I have always tried to let my kids be who they are, and discover and delight in how they see themselves and the world. (Not that I've been near perfect at it......). Now my youngest is less than one week from going into the Marines. He knows I hate the idea. He also knows I love him and will always be there for him, no matter what. My mother always wanted me to be a Dr. or a lawyer. Barbara Dream Master www.dreamweaverstudio.com "We've got two lives, one we're given, the other one we make." Mary Chapin Carpenter |
#19
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In article ,
says... On 28 Jul 2003 02:15:59 GMT, (Lee S. Billings) wrote: Some years back, I found a magazine article titled "Not The Child I Had In Mind", which was about the same thing. I can't remember now what magazine it was or who wrote it, and a Google search on the phrase brings up no hits, but I remember reading it and feeling as though a light bulb had gone off in my brain. I was *definitely* not the child my parents had in mind, and they never learned to be comfortable with who I *was*. Isn't that a bitch? I have always tried to let my kids be who they are, and discover and delight in how they see themselves and the world. (Not that I've been near perfect at it......). Now my youngest is less than one week from going into the Marines. He knows I hate the idea. He also knows I love him and will always be there for him, no matter what. My mother always wanted me to be a Dr. or a lawyer. The weird thing is, I never could figure out *what it was* that they wanted me to be! One of my friends, years later, said that was because it was a moving target -- if I tried to change something to be like what they said they wanted, something *else* immediately became the top priority. And, of course, there were a lot of things I wasn't willing to change. After much reflection, I've about decided that they might have been happy with either a Domestic Goddess taking care of her husband and kids, or a Hotshot Career Woman making $250k/year and flying all over the country doing Big Deals (or winning front-page law cases) -- but that I was betwixt and between, not being domestic *without* having anything "worth" making that sacrifice for, they just couldn't deal with. Celine -- Handmade jewelry at http://www.rubylane.com/shops/starcat "Only the powers of evil claim that doing good is boring." -- Diane Duane, _Nightfall at Algemron_ |
#20
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In article ,
says... After much reflection, I've about decided that they might have been happy with either a Domestic Goddess taking care of her husband and kids, or a Hotshot Career Woman making $250k/year and flying all over the country doing Big Deals (or winning front-page law cases) -- but that I was betwixt and between, not being domestic *without* having anything "worth" making that sacrifice for, they just couldn't deal with. I've been both, (not the $250K part, but not chump change either) and if my parents are any kind of a guide, that wouldn't satisfy them either. The target would change once again. When I was jetting all over the world, making big deals (and big money) - I got grief that I wasn't properly caring for my house. During the years I worked from home, I was "wasting my talents." When I had DD, both of them were disappointed I "didn't give my husband a son." After a while, you have to respond "Whatever you say," then go along your merry way. Oy gevelt! Y'know, it was interesting reading about the adaptation you've worked out with your parents, which is completely different from my approach -- which was to pretty much cut them out of my life, since I liked it fine and they couldn't be with me for 5 minutes without starting to criticize. (My ex's parents were always invited to our parties. My parents weren't even told we were *having* a party; I didn't want to hear all the garbage about things I was planning wrong beforehand, doing wrong during the event, and all the things wrong about my house, my friends, and my lifestyle afterwards!) Of course, you have the kids thing to deal with and I didn't; I can see how that would have quite an impact on this particular issue. But kids aren't dumb -- as witness DD's reaction to the stream of putdowns, which is what started this thread! She's not going to be fooled by the bull****, and she's not going to put up with it either on your behalf or for herself if they start in on her... and that's a Good Thing if you ask me. Celine -- Handmade jewelry at http://www.rubylane.com/shops/starcat "Only the powers of evil claim that doing good is boring." -- Diane Duane, _Nightfall at Algemron_ |
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