If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Knots and Surgery
Once in a long while, knots used in surgery have been discussed here.
Knots, that I hadn't see before, are shown he http://www.laparoscopyhospital.com/Chapter6.htm . Kind of remind me of some fishing knots. smile - Brian. |
Ads |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
(Dan Lehman) wrote:
} Note that the image of the completed Reefed-Surgeon's knot } (to coin a name) has the 2nd throw wrongly oriented (it's } right in the tying steps)--Granny-like. Alton Brown [on the Food Channel] recommended a Surgeon's Knot for trussing up some sort of rolled roast, and he, too, did a granny-surgeons. [which I found surprising because he's sort of the geek-of-the-kitchen and I'd have thought he'd have more carefully researched the knot, considering how carefully he *DID* describe making a granny. [he almost got me convinced that the granny-was *was* the right way to tie a surgeon's knot! /bernie\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers Pearisburg, VA -- Too many people, too few sheep -- |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Bernie Cosell wrote:
(Dan Lehman) wrote: Note that the image of the completed Reefed-Surgeon's knot (to coin a name) has the 2nd throw wrongly oriented (it's right in the tying steps)--Granny-like. Alton Brown [on the Food Channel] recommended a Surgeon's Knot for trussing up some sort of rolled roast, and he, too, did a granny-surgeons. [which I found surprising because he's sort of the geek-of-the-kitchen and I'd have thought he'd have more carefully researched the knot, considering how carefully he *DID* describe making a granny. [he almost got me convinced that the granny-was *was* the right way to tie a surgeon's knot! Since we are now talking lacing, trussing or binding, the following has been in the back of my mind for a while and I would like your opinions. The topic of the websites is lacing conductors. Here, http://www.dairiki.org/hammond/cable-lacing-howto/ , at the bottom of the page, it says, "Lacing may also be started with a square knot, followed by two lock stitches." When I looked at the diagram it is a Square (Reef) Knot. Here, http://www.tpub.com/neets/book4/12q.htm , it says "Single lace can be started with a square knot and at least two marling hitches drawn tightly." But, when I looked at fig. 2-41, although the diagram calls it a Square Knot, it is a Granny Knot. My first impression was that it was an obvious mistake in drawing fig. 2-14. However, when I laced a nylon cord over a cardboard tube, and aligned the knot and Marline Hitches as shown in fig. 2-14c, I noticed the following. 1. The Reef Knot was more stressed with the running end coming off at 90 degrees then the Granny Knot. 2. And, further, it was important to the amount of stress on the Reef Knot if you tied it "left over right and right over left" or if you tied it "right over left and left over right". I mean, the running end had to exit the Reef Knot as shown in the diagram at the "dairiki" site or the stress on the Reef Knot was much greater. 3. With the Granny Knot, it seemed more obvious when the running end came out of the Granny Knot correctly, that is, in the direction of the lacing. Looking at the Reef and Granny Knot snugged up with two Marling Hitches, I wondered, in this application (a binding application), if the Granny Knot was superior, or at least equal to the Reef Knot. In fact, I wonder if the Granny Knot (or the "Surgeon's Granny Knot") is superior for trussing a rolled roast. I look forward to your opinions. - Brian. Ps. I guess, in fact, there may be no significant difference in this application. |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
(Brian Grimley) wrote in message . com...
Note that the image of the completed Reefed-Surgeon's knot (to coin a name) has the 2nd throw wrongly oriented ... considering how carefully he *DID* describe making a granny. he almost got me convinced that the granny-was *was* the right way to tie a surgeon's knot! ... But, when I looked at fig. 2-41, although the diagram calls it a Square Knot, it is a Granny Knot. ... I wondered, in this application (a binding application), if the Granny Knot was superior, ... hi there, 'long time no see' my two cents of opinion: when a surgeon's knot is loaded, the fist (double half) knot in a surgeons knot has to slip a little before the second half knot tightens or in other words: you have to load the knot to tighten it (and that loosens the binding it is intended for) some options to prevent that loosening the knot/binding/hitch (while tightening, or later, when loaded): # referring to the link in Brian's first post in this thread : tie the second half knot as a 'granny', and it will hold without that slip ... (in my limited try out, not in surgeon's twine) and when you consider the second and third half knot as a proper square knot to secure the first double half knot, there is nothing 'wrong' # referring to a knot suggested by Dan Lehmann in an earlier thread: http://groups.google.nl/groups?hl=nl...com%26rnum%3D3 a reverse surgeon's knot: first tie a half knot and then tie a double half knot, you can tighten that without loading the knot, (later) slipping of the initial half knot is not occurring / not nessecary for a stable knot I like this reverse (wrong?) surgeon's knot # referring to Bernie's observation on a rolled toast: start trussing with a granny and the granny tumbles into (a half turn and) two half hitches when you load it; this (intended?) hitch tightens around the toast when you continue binding (this does not work when lacing wires or cardboard tubes and when you consider this a hitch, instead of a grannny, there is nothing 'wrong' # referring to Brian's second link on lacing wire branches: any knot to start a lace, enables you to tie that first pair of (double) marlin hitches. These marlin hitches, drawn up together, take the load when finished, no stress is on starting knot, so start with the end tucked between the wires will do? (it should prevent loosening when vibrating etc) but while tying that initial series of knots/hitches, the reef- or granny knot is loaded in a way that causes a reef knot to fail easily, so what is wrong with a granny to start with? (and indead, a granny with two marlin hitches drawn up together looks neat; no sign of the wrong granny # referring to a 'granny like' knot on http://www1.ocn.ne.jp/~tatsujin/rope...toko/index.htm this is considered a 'wrong' hitch? but as a start for lacing wire, it will work (it will do as a finish of a binding too http://osaka70.site.ne.jp/e/rope/japanese.html (but that is 'off topic' , and posted before not an option for trussing roasts I suppose, but for decorative / fanatic knot tyers? right? wrong? these qualifications do not help thinking and experimenting (it helps for instructions, when things are sorted out) does this knot help thinking? Ben |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
|
#7
|
|||
|
|||
(Brian Grimley) wrote:
Here, http://www.tpub.com/neets/book4/12q.htm , it says "Single lace can be started with a square knot and at least two marling hitches drawn tightly." I think that a commercial fisher, net-maker, would use the Seizing Hitch (_ABOK_#1680 in reverse--that image, working left-to-right along the rope, perferably wrapping with spirals), a doubled version of which makes a good secure start--a tight binder. It takes one more wrap than the Marline Hitch. (I note that although Ashley has "Marling" in the index (p.614), at both places cited he actually uses "marline".) I look forward to your opinions. - Brian. And we, your discoveries! (-; |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|