A crafts forum. CraftBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » CraftBanter forum » Craft related newsgroups » Jewelry
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

I need to buy a 'Rolling Mill', any suggestions ?



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old March 12th 09, 06:10 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default I need to buy a 'Rolling Mill', any suggestions ?

On Mar 7, 3:42 am, "FC..." wrote:
Need to get a new Rolling Mill. =A0I don't really want to spend any more
than about $700.00 as my use for it will be VERY basic (texturing
metal, flattening out small ingots). =A0I know nothing about 'rolling
mills' so any suggestions or information would be very welcome.

Thanks,

/FC....


Durston has recently made available a pair of very affordable Mills.
Both have a gear ratio of 4:1 which makes it very easy to do roller
printing. One is a 100mm combination rolling mill for about $710 and
the other is a 100mm Flat rolling mill for about $699.00. They were
able to bring down the price by removing the extension rollers that
did the 1/2 round wire. Which i think few people used anyway.
Rio Grande carries them as well as the other jewlery suppliers that
carry Durston mills.
I hope this is of some help
Mark Nelson
Rio Grande Tech support
Ads
  #12  
Old March 12th 09, 06:16 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Peter W. Rowe[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 115
Default I need to buy a 'Rolling Mill', any suggestions ?

On Thu, 12 Mar 2009 10:09:44 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry "FC..."
wrote:

I found this one at Rio and it looks like just the Rolling Mill I
might Need !

It looks like it might be of better quality than the PEPE unit. I
like the fact that it has a much wider 'FLAT" surface too. What do
you folks think... ?

DRM C130 with Reduction

http://www.durston.co.uk/lan-en/prod-m-drm130-en.htm


You won't regret buying a Durston Mill. Highest quality, great customer service
and support in the rare event you need it. Note several models available. The
one you flagged has an 80 mm flat roll, with wire grooves for the rest. If you
don't need the wire, you can get it all flat (130 mm), but I'd guess the wire
rolls are useful, and you'll likely find 80 mm of flat capacity will serve
almost any needs for normal jewelry scale work. Do a quick price comparison
with the Italian Cavallin mills too, before choosing. Equal quality, though
not as accessable customer service from the manufacturer. But if from Rio or a
similar good supplier, that's not an issue, since they too provide good support.

Peter

  #13  
Old March 14th 09, 01:16 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Abrasha
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 298
Default I need to buy a 'Rolling Mill', any suggestions ?

FC... wrote:
I found this one at Rio and it looks like just the Rolling Mill I
might Need !

It looks like it might be of better quality than the PEPE unit. I
like the fact that it has a much wider 'FLAT" surface too. What do
you folks think... ?

DRM C130 with Reduction

http://www.durston.co.uk/lan-en/prod-m-drm130-en.htm


Don't get it! Rolling mills with both the sheet and wire mill on one
set of rolls are no good. They are like sofa beds!

The width of the sheet section is only 80 mm, which means that you only
have about 60 to 65 mm of usable width to roll sheet, because it is not
possible to use that full width to roll sheet.

Get a mill with it;s full width used for sheet or wire. That may mean
you need to get two mills or one with the rolls above each other.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
  #14  
Old March 14th 09, 01:27 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Peter W. Rowe[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 115
Default I need to buy a 'Rolling Mill', any suggestions ?

On Fri, 13 Mar 2009 17:16:43 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry Abrasha
wrote:


Don't get it! Rolling mills with both the sheet and wire mill on one
set of rolls are no good. They are like sofa beds!


Well, yes. Agreed. but I'd also offer that if one has more limited need for a
mill, or perhaps only occasional need, AND needs both wire and steet capability,
While the combo mills aren't as useful as dedicated ones, they're still usable.
I used a combo Cavalin mill for years after school before I managed to afford a
better setup, and I've never regretted doing that. It got me through those
years when economically, I simply couldn't afford or justify two mills at full
price. And my old Combo mill got pulled back out of it's corner a few years ago
and sold to a former student who equally had to pinch pennies (and still does).
That mill, now 30 some years old, of course cost her less than a new one would
have, and meets her needs now as well as it did mine when I was starting out.
Does she want a better setup? Sure. Someday. For now, it does the job. And
though the combo mills have somewhat more limited utility than a dedicated mill
(especially the dedicated flat rolls, since the wire rolls on a combo mill are
quite useful, just over a smaller size range.), if one is getting a combo mill,
the Durston mills are reliable and well built, and will do what they're designed
to do. That might not be the case with the lower quality mills. It all comes
down to not only getting the best value for the money, but also considering the
size of one's available budget.

Peter
  #15  
Old March 14th 09, 06:54 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
FC...
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 14
Default I need to buy a 'Rolling Mill', any suggestions ?

Well those are both some pretty good points to consider...

Question regarding the 'Combo Mills or Wire Only Mills'.

What is it that you jewelers make the most of with the 'grooved'
portion of the rollers. I understand that they make Square and Half
Round wire... Is that correct ? What is it that proves so
indispensable with the wire portion of the Mill (or a wire only
mill) ? Does it allow you to make a 'particular type of wire' ?
Forgive my ignorance, but I've never used such a unit and was
wondering what you are limited to as far as Flat Mill only VS. once
that has wire making ability (either dual rollers or combo..). What
would I be missing exactly ?

Cheers,

/FC....

  #16  
Old March 14th 09, 07:16 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Peter W. Rowe[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 115
Default I need to buy a 'Rolling Mill', any suggestions ?

On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 10:54:23 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry "FC..."
wrote:

Well those are both some pretty good points to consider...

Question regarding the 'Combo Mills or Wire Only Mills'.

What is it that you jewelers make the most of with the 'grooved'
portion of the rollers. I understand that they make Square and Half
Round wire... Is that correct ?


Depending on the mill, some of which don't have the half round grooves, yes.
Sort of. The most commonly used are the "square" grooves, but these don't
produce a true square. Their purpose is not to provide a final shape, but to
start with a larger piece, for example a long narrow ingot such as might be
produced with a wire ingot mold or the wire portions of a combination ingot
mold, and break those down into a narrower long wire that can then be finally
shapex with drawplates, usually to round wire, or to other cross sections as
desired. The shape they produce is a square but with cut corners. Not quite
octagonal. The reason is that the flats at the corners allow the product of one
set of grooves to fit into the next smaller grooves after being rotated 90
degrees, without producing a flange on the edge. You can, of course, use the
semi square wire as is, if it suits your needs, but usually it's a starting
point. Often, for example, one might then run it through the flat mill to
produce rectangle stock, if one is not drawing it into a wire with draw plates.
The half round grooves are less usefull, since they're not such a generic use.
But useful for producing half round stock, such as for ring shanks, without so
much filing, or the need to draw it down. Drawing wire with narrower sharper
edges, like shallower half round, or triangle, etc, is more difficult than
drawing round wire, and of course one must have the drawplates too. Probably
the most common use for the half round grooves is for ring shank stock, but of
course you can use it for anything you might want half round wire for...

What is it that proves so
indispensable with the wire portion of the Mill (or a wire only
mill) ? Does it allow you to make a 'particular type of wire' ?


Most jewelers work with both sheet metal and wire. having both capabilities
allows you to make both. Plus, making wire is sometimes easier than making
sheet metal, since in some metals (silver especially) getting defect free ingots
for sheet metal is trickier than for wire, where minor defects don't produce
blisters that ruin the final stock.

The combo mills have limited width available for sheet, so you make only smaller
pieces. If you work with larger sized jewelry pieces, that's a limitation worth
considering. Many commercial "bench" jewelers, however, rarely need the larger
size sheet. Similarly, the wire grooves on a combo mill don't start with as
large a size. So you need to start with a smaller diameter wire ingot. That
can be a bit more difficult to pour, and limits the amount of wire you can make
in a single length. Whether this is a problem depends on the type of work you
do. As said before, you can make almost any type of wire you wish because the
mill itself doesn't usually give you your final wire product (unlike with sheet
metal, where it does). You will still need drawplates and the means to draw
wire. But you need the mill first, since you cannot start with an ingot and
directly draw wire from it.

Having the ability to make your own wire is very useful. Among other things,
the cost to buy wire already made incurs higher manufacturing costs from the
metals suppliers than does sheet metal, so there are savings involved. And you
can use even fairly small amounts of scrap to produce usable amounts of wire.


Forgive my ignorance, but I've never used such a unit and was
wondering what you are limited to as far as Flat Mill only VS. once
that has wire making ability (either dual rollers or combo..). What
would I be missing exactly ?


The flat only mills simply give you more width to work with. That allows you to
make wider stock if you need it. Plus, without the grooves machined into the
rollers, the rolls are a bit stronger, flexing less under load. That can give
you more accurate sheet thickness, especially when rolling very thin stock, as
well as often allowing you to start with a slightly thicker ingot.

As Abrasha notes, two mills are much better than one combo unit (or one of the
double units with a single mill having two sets of rolls, one over the other.
But the cost for two mills is of course, double that of one, so the compromise
of a combo mill gives you much of the basic capability with just the cost of one
mill. Half round grooves, or the capacity some mills have of add on side rolls
for half round, triangle, or patterned rolls, give you added capability for
shapes that can be more difficult to produce without them. Not everyone uses or
needs those capabilities. The flat rolls and basic wire rolls are by far the
most useful capabilities.

But everyone's needs differ, as you can tell in part by the differences between
my comments and Abrasha's.

Hope that helps.

Peter Rowe
  #17  
Old March 16th 09, 01:05 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
FC...
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 14
Default I need to buy a 'Rolling Mill', any suggestions ?

On Mar 14, 12:16*pm, Peter W. Rowe
wrote:
On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 10:54:23 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry "FC..."

wrote:
Well those are both some pretty good points to consider...


Question regarding the 'Combo Mills or Wire Only Mills'.


What is it that you jewelers make the most of with the 'grooved'
portion of the rollers. *I understand that they make Square and Half
Round wire... Is that correct ? *

(snip)
But everyone's needs differ, as you can tell in part by the differences between
my comments and Abrasha's. *

Hope that helps.

Peter Rowe



Yep,

That worked for me ! Now I have a MUCH better understanding of how
these things work ! Where would I be without you experience
people ?? No doubt trying to roll SILVER ingots through a "Slip Roll"
or something....
Awesome freaking advice from you all and I'm a happy camper as a
result.

The wire thing for me is definitely NOT as important as the "FLATS" of
the Mill... Especially since I'm rolling Silver, Gold, Copper, Brass,
etc. Finished wire is normally what I like to use and having to make
it myself (with drawplates and such...) just isn't 'worth it' at THIS
point. I think I'll continue to buy my wire as such and will purchase
the "FLAT ROLLING MILL" only. Likely the Durston 130.

If and when I'm ready to do a LOT of wire, I think I'll then either
sell my MILL and buy a DUAL rolling machine, or I'll add a WIRE only
machine to the Durston 130. Yes, that will work nicely and I won't
have to worry about buying such an EXPENSIVE combo machine with the
possibility of 'coming up short' (so to speak...) when it comes to
effective ingot rolling and "Patternizing" various metals !

Thanks for all the help.... I FREAKIN' love this group !

CHEERS,

/FC....
  #18  
Old March 16th 09, 01:06 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Abrasha
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 298
Default I need to buy a 'Rolling Mill', any suggestions ?

FC... wrote:
Well those are both some pretty good points to consider...

Question regarding the 'Combo Mills or Wire Only Mills'.

What is it that you jewelers make the most of with the 'grooved'
portion of the rollers. I understand that they make Square and Half
Round wire... Is that correct ?


No. Typically the wire mill is only used to reduce the gauge of heavy
stock to smaller gauge in preparation for working the wire through a
draw plate. That is what I use my wire mill for 99% of the time.

What is it that proves so
indispensable with the wire portion of the Mill (or a wire only
mill) ?


Gauge reduction of raw stock

Does it allow you to make a 'particular type of wire' ?


No.

If you are only getting one mill, get a flat mill.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
  #19  
Old March 16th 09, 06:13 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Abrasha
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 298
Default I need to buy a 'Rolling Mill', any suggestions ?

FC... wrote:


Yep,

That worked for me ! Now I have a MUCH better understanding of how
these things work ! Where would I be without you experience
people ?? No doubt trying to roll SILVER ingots through a "Slip Roll"
or something....
Awesome freaking advice from you all and I'm a happy camper as a
result.

The wire thing for me is definitely NOT as important as the "FLATS" of
the Mill... Especially since I'm rolling Silver, Gold, Copper, Brass,
etc. Finished wire is normally what I like to use and having to make
it myself (with drawplates and such...) just isn't 'worth it' at THIS
point. I think I'll continue to buy my wire as such and will purchase
the "FLAT ROLLING MILL" only. Likely the Durston 130.


A good choice I think.


If and when I'm ready to do a LOT of wire, I think I'll then either
sell my MILL and buy a DUAL rolling machine, or I'll add a WIRE only
machine to the Durston 130.


When the time comes, add a wire only mill. Do not sell the flat mill!

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
  #20  
Old March 17th 09, 12:52 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
ted frater
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 133
Default I need to buy a 'Rolling Mill', any suggestions ?

Peter W. Rowe wrote:
On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 10:54:23 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry "FC..."
wrote:

Well those are both some pretty good points to consider...

Question regarding the 'Combo Mills or Wire Only Mills'.

What is it that you jewelers make the most of with the 'grooved'
portion of the rollers. I understand that they make Square and Half
Round wire... Is that correct ?


Depending on the mill, some of which don't have the half round grooves, yes.
Sort of. The most commonly used are the "square" grooves, but these don't
produce a true square. Their purpose is not to provide a final shape, but to
start with a larger piece, for example a long narrow ingot such as might be
produced with a wire ingot mold or the wire portions of a combination ingot
mold, and break those down into a narrower long wire that can then be finally
shapex with drawplates, usually to round wire, or to other cross sections as
desired. The shape they produce is a square but with cut corners. Not quite
octagonal. The reason is that the flats at the corners allow the product of one
set of grooves to fit into the next smaller grooves after being rotated 90
degrees, without producing a flange on the edge. You can, of course, use the
semi square wire as is, if it suits your needs, but usually it's a starting
point. Often, for example, one might then run it through the flat mill to
produce rectangle stock, if one is not drawing it into a wire with draw plates.
The half round grooves are less usefull, since they're not such a generic use.
But useful for producing half round stock, such as for ring shanks, without so
much filing, or the need to draw it down. Drawing wire with narrower sharper
edges, like shallower half round, or triangle, etc, is more difficult than
drawing round wire, and of course one must have the drawplates too. Probably
the most common use for the half round grooves is for ring shank stock, but of
course you can use it for anything you might want half round wire for...

What is it that proves so
indispensable with the wire portion of the Mill (or a wire only
mill) ? Does it allow you to make a 'particular type of wire' ?


Most jewelers work with both sheet metal and wire. having both capabilities
allows you to make both. Plus, making wire is sometimes easier than making
sheet metal, since in some metals (silver especially) getting defect free ingots
for sheet metal is trickier than for wire, where minor defects don't produce
blisters that ruin the final stock.

The combo mills have limited width available for sheet, so you make only smaller
pieces. If you work with larger sized jewelry pieces, that's a limitation worth
considering. Many commercial "bench" jewelers, however, rarely need the larger
size sheet. Similarly, the wire grooves on a combo mill don't start with as
large a size. So you need to start with a smaller diameter wire ingot. That
can be a bit more difficult to pour, and limits the amount of wire you can make
in a single length. Whether this is a problem depends on the type of work you
do. As said before, you can make almost any type of wire you wish because the
mill itself doesn't usually give you your final wire product (unlike with sheet
metal, where it does). You will still need drawplates and the means to draw
wire. But you need the mill first, since you cannot start with an ingot and
directly draw wire from it.

Having the ability to make your own wire is very useful. Among other things,
the cost to buy wire already made incurs higher manufacturing costs from the
metals suppliers than does sheet metal, so there are savings involved. And you
can use even fairly small amounts of scrap to produce usable amounts of wire.


Forgive my ignorance, but I've never used such a unit and was
wondering what you are limited to as far as Flat Mill only VS. once
that has wire making ability (either dual rollers or combo..). What
would I be missing exactly ?


The flat only mills simply give you more width to work with. That allows you to
make wider stock if you need it. Plus, without the grooves machined into the
rollers, the rolls are a bit stronger, flexing less under load. That can give
you more accurate sheet thickness, especially when rolling very thin stock, as
well as often allowing you to start with a slightly thicker ingot.

As Abrasha notes, two mills are much better than one combo unit (or one of the
double units with a single mill having two sets of rolls, one over the other.
But the cost for two mills is of course, double that of one, so the compromise
of a combo mill gives you much of the basic capability with just the cost of one
mill. Half round grooves, or the capacity some mills have of add on side rolls
for half round, triangle, or patterned rolls, give you added capability for
shapes that can be more difficult to produce without them. Not everyone uses or
needs those capabilities. The flat rolls and basic wire rolls are by far the
most useful capabilities.

But everyone's needs differ, as you can tell in part by the differences between
my comments and Abrasha's.

Hope that helps.

Peter Rowe


Id say for the small time user a combo mill will prove more useful.
I bought my Durston some 25yrs ago and its as good as the day i bought it
My need was to do production milling so I motorised it.
Has been fine.this way.
However when making tapered section material one needs to wind in
then reverse out. Then move down to the next groove and repeat.
So to do this I put the handle back on.
Cant do this if its motorised.
Since then I accumulated several mills all flat.
The last one has a big 3ft 50lb flywheel on the handle shaft. with a 5
to I reduction. rolls 5 by 2.5in dia.
Had to get them reground to produce a true straight roll.
Last year I had to mint 2500 commemorative plaques for a 40th
anniversary . the material supplied was 3in wide by .036in thick.70/30
lead free guilding metal.
On calculating the length needed to make this no the client supplied
material left me with 500 approx short.
Ie enough for 2000,
What to do?
Cant ask for more, so I motorised this latest mill, set up input guide
rails, cut 3ft lengths of material and rolled it down so it was 48in long.
Reduction to .027in.
Worked just fine.
From cutting the sheet in strips(5 off)
rolling, guillotining to length, hot drop stamping,
pickling, clipping then date stamping, total of 50 in each production
day of 6 hrs work.
If youve wondered as to the heating to dull cherry red. made a Davy
miners lamp principle of controlled neutral non oxidising stainless
steel gauze muffle. with hinged top. Can see when its the right temp by
colour . Remove with tongs drop stamp thne pickle rince neutralise dry
and stack.
Hope this is of interest.
Ted
Dorset
UK.
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Rolling Mill Kendall Davies Jewelry 13 July 17th 12 06:07 PM
rolling mill questions ted frater Jewelry 0 September 19th 06 07:38 AM
Calibrating a Rolling Mill Frosty Jewelry 5 May 20th 06 03:31 AM
Slitting machine, Slitting, Rolling mill, Wire Flattening Mill, Sheet Leveler, Section Leveler, Scalping Machine, Brush Machine, coiler, decoiler, recoiler, 4 Hi, 6 Hi, 4 High, 6 High, Rolling mill, Wire Flattening Mill, Polishing Machine, Rewinding korak Marketplace 0 December 14th 03 06:52 PM
Slitting machine, Slitting, Rolling mill, Wire Flattening Mill, Sheet Leveler, Section Leveler, Scalping Machine, Brush Machine, coiler, decoiler, recoiler, 4 Hi, 6 Hi, 4 High, 6 High, Rolling mill, Wire Flattening Mill, Polishing Machine, Rewinding korak Quilting 0 December 14th 03 06:52 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:17 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 CraftBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.