Soldering

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:38:55 -0700, in Ìô Jack Schmidling wrote:


"NE333RO"

Well, I'm reasonably sure if we needed info, we would not ask it of
you
(inventorboy).

This is really getting sick. Name calling? Good grief!

You're right, Jack. It went too far (and it's poster knows it, and asked me
this morning if the post could be retracted (It can't, effectively)). I made a
mistake in approving this one. the group charter instructs me to not allow
posts that extend to personal attacks, and I goofed on this one. It's OK to
criticize a poster's information and methods, debating the aspects of the craft.
But personal attacks are not allowed in the group, and I erred in allowing this
one. sorry 'bout that.


But the real point is, I will bet a faceting machine that you can not prove
that "most" of this list has ever cut a single stone. I would guess that it
is less than 5% of "us".


You might win that one. But it's indeed an interesting question. In my own
experience, most experienced jewelers and metalsmiths have at least toyed with
lapidary work, and most have cut or repaired cabochons on a routine basis. But
repairing the polish on a scratched opal is not the same as facetting. I know,
of those few regular posters to this newsgroup, of about six who facet or have
facetted stones, including myself. But this may be slightly skewed, since
there isn't a seperate usenet newsgroup for facetters or lapidary work in
general, and some of those folks hang out here, perhaps increasing the
percentage. Among the general population of metal artists I know (such as those
folks I know at SNAG), most have only passing knowledge of facetting. Many have
seen it done and understand it's basic principals. Some may have tried it,
perhaps while in school or the like. But given the cost of decent equipment,
few really get into it. Cabochon cutting, as I said, is another matter
altogether.

Peter Rowe
(group moderator)

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:38:51 -0700, in ôô "Lamedeer"
wrote:

Hello Peter,

Your concepts regarding soft soldering are incorrect. If they were not there
would be no space program. You might check out the NASA studies for more
information. Company sponsored studies are usually self serving.

perhaps in the exact details, I was incorrect, as in characterizing soft solders
as similar to a glue. I DO know it's not quite like that. But in practice, it
resembles a glue joint more than it does a gold soldered joint, in terms of the
fact that dissimilar material is used to fill a gap between the parts being
joined, and that most of the bond is simply the wetting action of that agent
adhereing to the parts. Now, I DO know that with soft soldering, there is
indeed some surface penetration of the tin/lead (etc) alloy into the bonded
surfaces. So it's not qutie like a glue (unless one things of glues on somewhat
porous materials). However, the depth of that penetration is shallower, and
given the low hardness, tensile strength, shear strength, etc, of the soft
solder material, that penetration makes little difference in the end strength of
the bond, since a shearing force, or peeling the joint apart, can easily simply
break the solder itself, even if it doesn't cause the solder to fully seperate
from the bond as would a failed glue joint. In soft soldering, the narrow bond
zone, coupled with the very large differences in strengths, hardness,
ductirlity, etc, of the solder compared to the bonded parts will concentrate
stresses within the bond zone much more, I think. In hard soldering, first
off, the solders used generally are metals in the same family as those being
joined. With melting points in the same general order of magnitude, or near
enough to it, so that when the solder flows, considerable dissolving of the
parent metal into the molten solder mass can occur, as well as dissipation of
the solder alloys into the still solid parent metal. So the bond zone is a much
more diffused and indistinct layer, especially with the harder grade solders.
This makes the joints considerably harder to break. Of course, the "easier" the
solder grade used, the less this applies. Some of the easy grades of platinum
solder, for example, contain little, if any, actual platinum, being mostly
palladium and silver and the like. Solder a platinum wire to a platinum object
with, say, 1100 grade solder, and then try to peel it away, and you'll be
surprised at how easily it can be done. In my view, that solder joint is
performing much like a high temp version of tin/lead solder. Not enough surface
penetration, and too dissimilar a solder composition, for good strength.

Please understand that I'm not an engineer, nor academically trained in
metalurgy. My training is in the arts and metalsmithing and jewelry and
gemology, etc. So my terminology may not match that used by NASA in describing
how solders perform. However, I've been making things in precious and
non-ferrous metal since the late 60s, and electronics have been a modest side
hobby/interest for much of that time too. So my familiarity with hard solders
as used in jewelry, and with soft solders as used both in jewelry and as used in
electronics assembly, goes back quite a while. I base my observations and
statements simply on what i've observed to happen with the stuff.

And the simplest characterization of those observations is that with a solder
joint, the closer the composition of the solder matches that of the metals being
joined, both in type of metal and in physical properties of the metals involved,
the better the joint will be in terms of strength and appearance. Joints made
with more highly dissimilar materials may still work, but will be more likely to
present some sort of problem or objectionable characteristic, either aesthetic
or physical.

Soft solders are not automatically some sort of evil thing in jewelry. Indeed
they're very useful at times. one can avoid annealing parts, heat damaging
parts, or simply thje cost and bother of the cleanup that may be required after
a higher temp solder joint. Used with joints that are properly designed for
this type of solder, the results can be entirely satisfactory, and such
materials are indeed widely used both in jewelry and holloware. The key is
simply that the joint, whether done with hard solder or Tix solder, or even glue
or a laser welder, needs to be properly designed for the type of bonding method
being used.

Peter

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:38:57 GMT, "Lamedeer"
wrote:

Hello Peter,

Your concepts regarding soft soldering are incorrect. If they were not there
would be no space program. You might check out the NASA studies for more
information. Company sponsored studies are usually self serving.

Bad person. Top posting *and* leaving in a long quoted bit.

--
Marilee J. Layman

"Peter W. Rowe"

But personal attacks are not allowed in the group, and I erred in allowing
this
one. sorry 'bout that.

Actually, I was going to email you rather than respond but it is just so
much
fun to smart back. Anyway, no one has ever accused me of not taking advice
if it makes sense and learing has always been one of my favorite passtimes
but name calling and personal attacks, when none are warranted, belong on
the
play ground.

Among the general population of metal artists I know (such as those
folks I know at SNAG), most have only passing knowledge of facetting....

Well, one has to keep in mind the name of this newsgroup and metalwork does
not define jewelry.

But given the cost of decent equipment, few really get into it.....

That's what makes the comment about the "tin plated" machine so absurd. As
a result of my ability to get the most bang for the buck, one can now buy a
machine for $500. Still a lot of money but a giant step forward in bringing
more folks into the craft. Unfortunately, young folks would rather hang out
at malls than do anything that requires effort and the old timers are too
hidebound to believe one could make anything on a "tin-plated machine".

Perhaps the great metalurgists on this list could tell me how one would go
about tin plating aluminum and plastic

Cabochon cutting, as I said, is another matter altogether.

Yes but every cab I have made has been made on the same machine. I replace
the hard lap with a CD, rubber matt and diamond impregnated cloth. I hold
the dopped in a B&D screwdriver and make flawless cabs in less than an hour.

This is a bit off the subject but I found that crocus paper makes a perfect
lapbase for diamond paste. I bond the crocus side to the rubber pad with
spray adhesive and put the paste of the back side. The rouge or whatever is
on crocus paper is useless even for a prepolish.

I have fallen in love with cabbed rubies and probably will never facet
another one.

My silver wine glass now has 4 of them "soldered" around it and looks very
elegant. I will report back when they all fall off. I tried pulling one
off one of the setting with a needlenose and only managed to break off one
of the tabs.

js


--
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.netfirms.com/weekly.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Gems, Sausage, http://schmidling.netfirms.com





Cabochon cutting, as I said, is another matter
altogether.

Peter Rowe
(group moderator)

On , in ¸ô Jack Schmidling wrote:


but name calling and personal attacks, when none are warranted, belong on
the
play ground.

If even there...


Among the general population of metal artists I know (such as those
folks I know at SNAG), most have only passing knowledge of facetting....

Well, one has to keep in mind the name of this newsgroup and metalwork does
not define jewelry.


No but gold and silver and platinum smiths are working in metal. It became
apparent several decades ago within the academic art school jewelry and
silversmithing departments, that there were many folks working not just with
gold, silver, or platinum, etc, but with bronze, brass, nickel silver, steels,
titanium, pewter, niobium, aluminum, and just about anything else, all still in
the pursuit of producing things that would be called jewelry or related to
silversmithing traditions, or those of small sculpture. The term goldsmith or
silversmight, or even "jeweler" seemed too limiting for many of these folks. In
response to that, Richard Thomas coined the word "metalsmith" for use in that
broader description of what many of us do. It's come to mean more than just
jewelry work, of course, but it's also understood that many metalsmiths are
pretty much only making jewelry. The title of the magazine published by the
Society of North American Goldsmiths (SNAG) is "Metalsmith"...

But given the cost of decent equipment, few really get into it.....

That's what makes the comment about the "tin plated" machine so absurd. As
a result of my ability to get the most bang for the buck, one can now buy a
machine for $500. Still a lot of money but a giant step forward in bringing
more folks into the craft. Unfortunately, young folks would rather hang out
at malls than do anything that requires effort and the old timers are too
hidebound to believe one could make anything on a "tin-plated machine".

Perhaps the great metalurgists on this list could tell me how one would go
about tin plating aluminum and plastic


Um. I suspect the likely process would be vapor deposition...



This is a bit off the subject but I found that crocus paper makes a perfect
lapbase for diamond paste. I bond the crocus side to the rubber pad with
spray adhesive and put the paste of the back side. The rouge or whatever is
on crocus paper is useless even for a prepolish.

crocus is used for metal as a prepolish. But I like your idea as a substrate
for diamond compound. The topic is totally on topic for the group, by the way,
which includes lapidary work.


Peter

Jack Schmidling wrote:


But the real point is, I will bet a faceting machine that you can not prove
that "most" of this list has ever cut a single stone. I would guess that it
is less than 5% of "us".


You are right on that one. Except that it is probably far less than 1/10 of 1%
of "us" who have cut their own stones.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

m wrote:

Peter W. Rowe wrote:

So a certain degree of graciousness in response to
whatever help is found may be a more productive
attitude than high levels of
arrogance and defensiveness over those
who may be less helpful.

;~)
He may be a bit defensive, but not plonkably so.
He's certainly not a match for
*sweet* old Unkle Hardsolder.
;~)
(Sorry, new cats; it's an inside joke.)
--
m

Don't even go there. He might come back. And "sweet" he ain't

Shudder!

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

"Peter W. Rowe"

crocus is used for metal as a prepolish. But I like your idea as a
substrate
for diamond compound.....

To correct a point, I meant to say crocus cloth, not paper. The cloth is
the key. It is very tough yet soft enough to follow the contour of curved
pieces and the material is dense enough to hang on to the diamonds.

How is this stuff supposed to be used? I have had some in my junk box for a
hundred years and never could get it to polish anything. Is it used dry?
The stuff just runs off if I wet it with water.

For my cabbing, I use WD40 with the diamond paste on the back side and it
really works nice.

I found some really slick silicon carbide sanding disks at McMaster that
work very well for roughing but it is not available finer than 240. It
comes in a roll of 100 self adhesive disks for about $25 and you just tear
off one and paste it on the soft pad. Again, I use WD40 with this also. It
does a great job of smoothing the flats after grinding to rough shape.
Doesn't last long on ruby but I can handle 25 cents for a beautiful ruby.

The topic is totally on topic for the group, by the way,
which includes lapidary work.

I was referring to the subject of this thread.

js


--
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.netfirms.com/weekly.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Gems, Sausage, http://schmidling.netfirms.com

On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 00:06:59 -0700, in hô Jack Schmidling wrote:



How is this stuff supposed to be used? I have had some in my junk box for a
hundred years and never could get it to polish anything. Is it used dry?
The stuff just runs off if I wet it with water.

Crocus, either paper or cloth, is intended as the final step in the series of
abrasive papers/cloths used for finishing metal. It does not produce an actual
polish, but is slightly finer than 4/0 paper/cloth in it's finish, which then
can be followed by the use of actual polishing compounds such as tripoli or
rouge. It's intended to be used dry, on metal, not stone.

With that said, I'll also note that I don't know any jewelers who use it more
than very occasionally. Usually, 4/0 paper is the finest we'd need in that
series, and if one needs finer grits, one is normally using the more precisely
graded numbered abrasives (like 400, 600, 1200, etc.), or these days, perhaps
the precision papers produced by 3M, graded in microns, or similar products...
I DO know, however, machinists/toolmakers who use it on occasion, and I suspect
that those guys have more use for it than jewelers do. But I'm guessing...

Peter

Hi Peter,

I repeat that you are incorrect in your concept (totally) of 'soft
soldering'. No disrespect, but, you must lack practical experience with soft
soldering.

The 'penetration' involved in well performed and reliable soft soldering
is such that with the advent of the microcircuit age the solder had to be
loaded with copper, for instance, to keep it from dissolving the copper
wires to be joined.

I don't wish to debate the matter since I have nothing to gain. I have
extensive experience in both areas and I have said my piece. Hopefully,
someone will gain.

As an aside, there have been many posts about the difficulty in matching
color on some karat golds. I have yet to see mention of a technique a bench
jeweler showed me some fifty years ago. I bartered some yellow gold solder
for some work I needed done that I didn't think I could handle and he
mentioned that it was the first gold solder he had seen in years.

When I asked him (naturally) how he soldered things he said he always used a
snippet of the gold he was soldering. That if the snippet was small enough
it would melt first and make the join.

"Peter W. Rowe" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:38:51 -0700, in ôô "Lamedeer"

wrote:

Hello Peter,

Your concepts regarding soft soldering are incorrect. If they were not
there
would be no space program. You might check out the NASA studies for more
information. Company sponsored studies are usually self serving.

perhaps in the exact details, I was incorrect, as in characterizing soft
solders
as similar to a glue. I DO know it's not quite like that. But in
practice, it
resembles a glue joint more than it does a gold soldered joint, in terms
of the
fact that dissimilar material is used to fill a gap between the parts
being
joined, and that most of the bond is simply the wetting action of that
agent
adhereing to the parts. Now, I DO know that with soft soldering, there is
indeed some surface penetration of the tin/lead (etc) alloy into the
bonded
surfaces. So it's not qutie like a glue (unless one things of glues on
somewhat
porous materials). However, the depth of that penetration is shallower,
and
given the low hardness, tensile strength, shear strength, etc, of the soft
solder material, that penetration makes little difference in the end
strength of
the bond, since a shearing force, or peeling the joint apart, can easily
simply
break the solder itself, even if it doesn't cause the solder to fully
seperate
from the bond as would a failed glue joint. In soft soldering, the narrow
bond
zone, coupled with the very large differences in strengths, hardness,
ductirlity, etc, of the solder compared to the bonded parts will
concentrate
stresses within the bond zone much more, I think. In hard soldering,
first
off, the solders used generally are metals in the same family as those
being
joined. With melting points in the same general order of magnitude, or
near
enough to it, so that when the solder flows, considerable dissolving of
the
parent metal into the molten solder mass can occur, as well as dissipation
of
the solder alloys into the still solid parent metal. So the bond zone is
a much
more diffused and indistinct layer, especially with the harder grade
solders.
This makes the joints considerably harder to break. Of course, the
"easier" the
solder grade used, the less this applies. Some of the easy grades of
platinum
solder, for example, contain little, if any, actual platinum, being mostly
palladium and silver and the like. Solder a platinum wire to a platinum
object
with, say, 1100 grade solder, and then try to peel it away, and you'll be
surprised at how easily it can be done. In my view, that solder joint is
performing much like a high temp version of tin/lead solder. Not enough
surface
penetration, and too dissimilar a solder composition, for good strength.

Please understand that I'm not an engineer, nor academically trained in
metalurgy. My training is in the arts and metalsmithing and jewelry and
gemology, etc. So my terminology may not match that used by NASA in
describing
how solders perform. However, I've been making things in precious and
non-ferrous metal since the late 60s, and electronics have been a modest
side
hobby/interest for much of that time too. So my familiarity with hard
solders
as used in jewelry, and with soft solders as used both in jewelry and as
used in
electronics assembly, goes back quite a while. I base my observations and
statements simply on what i've observed to happen with the stuff.

And the simplest characterization of those observations is that with a
solder
joint, the closer the composition of the solder matches that of the metals
being
joined, both in type of metal and in physical properties of the metals
involved,
the better the joint will be in terms of strength and appearance. Joints
made
with more highly dissimilar materials may still work, but will be more
likely to
present some sort of problem or objectionable characteristic, either
aesthetic
or physical.

Soft solders are not automatically some sort of evil thing in jewelry.
Indeed
they're very useful at times. one can avoid annealing parts, heat
damaging
parts, or simply thje cost and bother of the cleanup that may be required
after
a higher temp solder joint. Used with joints that are properly designed
for
this type of solder, the results can be entirely satisfactory, and such
materials are indeed widely used both in jewelry and holloware. The key
is
simply that the joint, whether done with hard solder or Tix solder, or
even glue
or a laser welder, needs to be properly designed for the type of bonding
method
being used.

Peter