Soldering

I have been soldering since about 10 years old but pretty much confined to a
soldering iron.

The problems of attaching gem heads with a torch seem a bit daunting.

My current project is to be-jewel a silver chalice with my faceted and
cabbed stones. On my practice goblet, I have been using Crazy Glue with no
problems other than the fact that they would probably all fall off if I
dropped it.

Could someone point me to some basics on soldering with a torch?

I have silver bearing solder that can be melted with a hot iron but getting
the base hot enough to wet is a bit of a problem.

js


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the 1st thing you dont do is attach a gem with a torch, gems are mounted
in settings specifically made for each gem. what type of setting you use
depends on many factors. To find out what these factors are....is the
1st thing you have to do.
The 2nd thing you really need to do is go to your local library and get
out all the books you can on smithing holloware, NOT jewellery making.
Holloware is a different branch of the silver trade and, altho it uses
the same sort of skills there used differently.
you need to read everything in these books as you will find most of the
answers you seek there. and get some idea of the skills you need to perfect.
From what you have told us so far, it appears your completely out of
your depth on a project of this scale.
Sorry to be so blunt but you would need a step by step email course
over at least a year from an experienced hollow silver ware maker to get
anywhere. None of us have the time or patience to devote to such a long
enterprise We all have our own living to make . In this trade it is
normal to take a 7 year apprenticship assuming you have a flair for this
kind of work. As Ive said before, there are 101 things you need to know
and be able to do before youll get the sort of results you want.
If time is no object ,the other thing you should do is go on a course of
hollow ware making , your instructor there will guide you through the
processes you need to learn in order to achieve your desired result.
Is there anything Peter? or Abrasha? ive left out? to show this guy the
size of the mountain he plans to climb??
Terd Frater Dorset UK.


Jack Schmidling wrote:
I have been soldering since about 10 years old but pretty much confined to a
soldering iron.

The problems of attaching gem heads with a torch seem a bit daunting.

My current project is to be-jewel a silver chalice with my faceted and
cabbed stones. On my practice goblet, I have been using Crazy Glue with no
problems other than the fact that they would probably all fall off if I
dropped it.

Could someone point me to some basics on soldering with a torch?

I have silver bearing solder that can be melted with a hot iron but getting
the base hot enough to wet is a bit of a problem.

js

"ted.ffrater"

Not again....

From what you have told us so far, it appears your completely out of
your depth on a project of this scale.....

I have been spending hours for years answering random questions on science
and astronomy to readers all over the world. The only people I treat as you
have treated me are students who are obviously too lazy to write a paper and
expect me to do it for them. I usually refer them to the library because
that is the way children learn how to learn.

I am not a child learning how to learn. The internet is a fantastic
resource that nearly makes libraries and encyclopedias obsolete for an
educated adult.

If you are too lazy to answer my questions, don't bother with the lecture
and don't bother pleading for others to back you up.

I retired a millionare many times over at age 40. You may rest assured I
know my depth and how to swim.

There are literally billions of web sites that offer info on just about
anything on earth. All I asked for was some help finding something in this
field. I did not ask you anything and do not appreciate such answers. If
no such web site exists, I will buy books and persue other avenues but you
are no help at all and certainly no asset to this group.

Thanks,

js


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On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 07:31:59 -0700, in hô Jack Schmidling wrote:

"ted.ffrater"

Not again....
Hi Jack.

good that you took the time to put him down a bit, and did it politely too. I
was tempted myself. But moderators need to stay impartial, after all...

Ted's not a bad sort, just a rather old school european smith with typically
european attitudes about how quickly one can learn this craft. Your post
apparently gave him an overblown impression of how much of a beginner you might
be. Somehow, after looking at your web site, i don't doubt you know more than
you realize, just maybe haven't done it yet... (grin)

Ted's post does have some good starting points, he's just coming at it from a
typically european persepctive on silversmithing, which sometimes tends to make
a deep arcane art which takes years to learn, out of something we here in the
states have sophomore jewelry students doing happily by the end of the second
month of the fall semester... He's right in that real mastery of the craft of
silver smithing on the holloware level takes significant time and energy to
learn well, but I think he forgets just how much even a beginner can learn and
achieve on even the first piece.

In european training, actual holloware, like raising the goblet in the first
place, is considered advanced work, and i think he never quite got past that
point to your real questions about soldering. Plus, he's right about your
initial post suggesting, possibly correctly, that you're a bit of a beginner,
given your reticence to work with a torch (which in the end is easier than an
iron). But I'll disagree with him that it's so hard to learn.

A couple thoughts.

First, while I don't know a good web site that just directly shows you to solder
with a torch, most good jewelry making books will cover it, and jewelry scale
soldering is the same as what you're doing, except you might benefit from a
larger torch, such as the air/acetyelene smith or prestolite torches. Very nice
for silversmithing work with the larger tips, and just what you need for such
things.

Please don't consider using any solder that melts low enough for an iron. Even
the silver bearing ones are just not good strong joints. They DO offer the
advantage of no fire scale or annealing, but thier color match is poor, and once
used, you then cannot use proper silver soldering temps, or many techniques, on
the piece again, as the low melting solders then cause trouble. If you must use
such, consider instead the slightly pricier "TIX" brand. Not sure if it
contains silver, but it's intended for jewelry use, and stays a bit brighter
looking, plus it melts even lower than what you've probably got now. Even with
these solders, you'll have the best luch using a small torch to put the pieces
on.to the goblet. You'll need to be using something like closed back bezels, or
other solid back findings, rather than typical open backed heads, which simply
don't offer enough surface area for the low melting solders to give a useable
joint.

One web site you can go to for some reasearch is the Ganoksin.com site. it's
the home of the Orchid mail list, a far busier discussion site for jewelry
makers and hobbyists, and searching the archives of that site will no doubt find
you some instructional posts on soldering. Look up also, my own discussions on
that site for the use of Prips flux (or misspelled Pripps flux) for how to avoid
the problems with fire scale on silver when hard soldering. There are also many
discussions on best choices of torches, etc.

And if you like feel free to contact me via private email for any additional
pointers or questions you might run into. I'll be happy to help you figure this
out. Sounds like a fun project.

By the way, your web site is inspiring indeed. How do you find the time for
quite so many projects and interests?

Cheers

Peter

Send him he

http://www.ganoksin.com/server-cgi-bin/iglimpse

--

Don Thompson

~~~~~~~~

"Peter W. Rowe" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 07:31:59 -0700, in hô Jack Schmidling
wrote:

"ted.ffrater"

Not again....
Hi Jack.

good that you took the time to put him down a bit, and did it politely
too. I
was tempted myself. But moderators need to stay impartial, after all...

Ted's not a bad sort, just a rather old school european smith with
typically
european attitudes about how quickly one can learn this craft. Your post
apparently gave him an overblown impression of how much of a beginner you
might
be. Somehow, after looking at your web site, i don't doubt you know more
than
you realize, just maybe haven't done it yet... (grin)

Ted's post does have some good starting points, he's just coming at it
from a
typically european persepctive on silversmithing, which sometimes tends to
make
a deep arcane art which takes years to learn, out of something we here in
the
states have sophomore jewelry students doing happily by the end of the
second
month of the fall semester... He's right in that real mastery of the
craft of
silver smithing on the holloware level takes significant time and energy
to
learn well, but I think he forgets just how much even a beginner can learn
and
achieve on even the first piece.

In european training, actual holloware, like raising the goblet in the
first
place, is considered advanced work, and i think he never quite got past
that
point to your real questions about soldering. Plus, he's right about your
initial post suggesting, possibly correctly, that you're a bit of a
beginner,
given your reticence to work with a torch (which in the end is easier than
an
iron). But I'll disagree with him that it's so hard to learn.

A couple thoughts.

First, while I don't know a good web site that just directly shows you to
solder
with a torch, most good jewelry making books will cover it, and jewelry
scale
soldering is the same as what you're doing, except you might benefit from
a
larger torch, such as the air/acetyelene smith or prestolite torches.
Very nice
for silversmithing work with the larger tips, and just what you need for
such
things.

Please don't consider using any solder that melts low enough for an iron.
Even
the silver bearing ones are just not good strong joints. They DO offer
the
advantage of no fire scale or annealing, but thier color match is poor,
and once
used, you then cannot use proper silver soldering temps, or many
techniques, on
the piece again, as the low melting solders then cause trouble. If you
must use
such, consider instead the slightly pricier "TIX" brand. Not sure if it
contains silver, but it's intended for jewelry use, and stays a bit
brighter
looking, plus it melts even lower than what you've probably got now. Even
with
these solders, you'll have the best luch using a small torch to put the
pieces
on.to the goblet. You'll need to be using something like closed back
bezels, or
other solid back findings, rather than typical open backed heads, which
simply
don't offer enough surface area for the low melting solders to give a
useable
joint.

One web site you can go to for some reasearch is the Ganoksin.com site.
it's
the home of the Orchid mail list, a far busier discussion site for jewelry
makers and hobbyists, and searching the archives of that site will no
doubt find
you some instructional posts on soldering. Look up also, my own
discussions on
that site for the use of Prips flux (or misspelled Pripps flux) for how to
avoid
the problems with fire scale on silver when hard soldering. There are
also many
discussions on best choices of torches, etc.

And if you like feel free to contact me via private email for any
additional
pointers or questions you might run into. I'll be happy to help you
figure this
out. Sounds like a fun project.

By the way, your web site is inspiring indeed. How do you find the time
for
quite so many projects and interests?

Cheers

Peter

Don T wrote:

Send him he

http://www.ganoksin.com/server-cgi-bin/iglimpse

--

Don Thompson


When this suggestion is followed, this is the result:

Glimpse Archive not found
Cannot find script "" in config file /usr/local/etc/httpd/wwwlib/amgr.cfg

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

Ahaaa.... Peter, the true moderator,
Thanks for your valuable imput.
Your right, of course, im from the old school of European precious metal
working ,but I like to think im honest with it even if it upsets some of
the people some of the time.
I do stand by my comments tho , about Jack's plans to make a silver
chalice decorated with set stones.
All one can go on in any comment I make is the writers written word,,
so when its said the plan is to set the stones with a torch one has to
assume thats what the enquirer wants to do.
Your comment that a student 2 months into a course could do it is true
also, however it implies that there is a teacher to point the student in
the right direction and that the premises where the teaching /learning
takes place has the correct equipment to do what the student aspires to
make.
Jack on the otherhand is presumably working from home, without the
benefit of a master to guide him so he faces the difficulty of finding
out himself the following.
He has to decidedon the design of the chalice, wether traditional,
medieval, rennaesence or contemporary, he has then to decide what
material to make it from. Having chosen silver, he than has to find out
what techniques he has to learn to put it all together. This then
defines the equipment hell need.
One could of course use soft ie lead tin solder to do this, you know as
well as I do thats not the way to have respect for the material in
question, ie silver, however its for the maker to decide not us, all we
can do is point out the way its allways been done and for what reasons.
I did think of suggesting that Jack makle his chalice out of say pewter,
or copper or even the harder alloy brass, all of these are well suited
to being assembled using soft solder, which hes good at, none the worse
for that, its an honest way if the design takes into account the
techniques needed to make the joints strong enough to stand the test of
time.
Ive been fortunate enough to have done quite a lot of restoration work
on brass and copper liturgical work which was made just that way.
To hard solder silver, where the solder melting temperature is over
600Deg. Centigrade is a different ball game alltogether. Relatively easy
on say a ring shank, but to join a thin rub over setting onto a chalice
body requires a great deal of knowhow, the right technique the right
equipment and fluxes. also the use of anti fire scale coatings. the
days of using reducing atmosphere charcoal brazier heating are long gone.
One just doesnt want to say to the enquirer , yes, go ahead get a
torch, itl be ok, and find that seveal chalices later its all gone wrong
and we get blamed for it.
I ll stand up and be counted on the point that its going to be really
difficult for Jack to get the results he wants without a lot of research
,experimentation, and technical exenditure on his part. I can assure you
both Its nothing personal.
Let me put it this way,
My hobby is hang gliding, its flying like in other aircraft, I need to
know similar skills, air law, meterology , flight rules ans so on, also
im still here so im reasonably good at it. but if I asked to fly say a
Cessna 2 seater, or something bigger, and a much more experienced pilot
said Im way out of my depth to even try without doing all the research
and training needed, id have to accept his word or pay the penalty if
Iscrewed it all up..
Ted Frater Dorset UK.







Peter W. Rowe wrote:
On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 07:31:59 -0700, in hô Jack Schmidling wrote:


"ted.ffrater"

Not again....

Hi Jack.

good that you took the time to put him down a bit, and did it politely too. I
was tempted myself. But moderators need to stay impartial, after all...

Ted's not a bad sort, just a rather old school european smith with typically
european attitudes about how quickly one can learn this craft. Your post
apparently gave him an overblown impression of how much of a beginner you might
be. Somehow, after looking at your web site, i don't doubt you know more than
you realize, just maybe haven't done it yet... (grin)

Ted's post does have some good starting points, he's just coming at it from a
typically european persepctive on silversmithing, which sometimes tends to make
a deep arcane art which takes years to learn, out of something we here in the
states have sophomore jewelry students doing happily by the end of the second
month of the fall semester... He's right in that real mastery of the craft of
silver smithing on the holloware level takes significant time and energy to
learn well, but I think he forgets just how much even a beginner can learn and
achieve on even the first piece.

In european training, actual holloware, like raising the goblet in the first
place, is considered advanced work, and i think he never quite got past that
point to your real questions about soldering. Plus, he's right about your
initial post suggesting, possibly correctly, that you're a bit of a beginner,
given your reticence to work with a torch (which in the end is easier than an
iron). But I'll disagree with him that it's so hard to learn.

A couple thoughts.

First, while I don't know a good web site that just directly shows you to solder
with a torch, most good jewelry making books will cover it, and jewelry scale
soldering is the same as what you're doing, except you might benefit from a
larger torch, such as the air/acetyelene smith or prestolite torches. Very nice
for silversmithing work with the larger tips, and just what you need for such
things.

Please don't consider using any solder that melts low enough for an iron. Even
the silver bearing ones are just not good strong joints. They DO offer the
advantage of no fire scale or annealing, but thier color match is poor, and once
used, you then cannot use proper silver soldering temps, or many techniques, on
the piece again, as the low melting solders then cause trouble. If you must use
such, consider instead the slightly pricier "TIX" brand. Not sure if it
contains silver, but it's intended for jewelry use, and stays a bit brighter
looking, plus it melts even lower than what you've probably got now. Even with
these solders, you'll have the best luch using a small torch to put the pieces
on.to the goblet. You'll need to be using something like closed back bezels, or
other solid back findings, rather than typical open backed heads, which simply
don't offer enough surface area for the low melting solders to give a useable
joint.

One web site you can go to for some reasearch is the Ganoksin.com site. it's
the home of the Orchid mail list, a far busier discussion site for jewelry
makers and hobbyists, and searching the archives of that site will no doubt find
you some instructional posts on soldering. Look up also, my own discussions on
that site for the use of Prips flux (or misspelled Pripps flux) for how to avoid
the problems with fire scale on silver when hard soldering. There are also many
discussions on best choices of torches, etc.

And if you like feel free to contact me via private email for any additional
pointers or questions you might run into. I'll be happy to help you figure this
out. Sounds like a fun project.

By the way, your web site is inspiring indeed. How do you find the time for
quite so many projects and interests?

Cheers

Peter

On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 07:48:10 GMT, in rec.crafts.jewelry "ted.ffrater"
wrote:

I do stand by my comments tho , about Jack's plans to make a silver
chalice decorated with set stones.
All one can go on in any comment I make is the writers written word,,
so when its said the plan is to set the stones with a torch one has to
assume thats what the enquirer wants to do.

I suspect, Ted, you misinterpreted the original question. First, he wasn't
asking us how to make the chalice itself. Just about how to attach his stones.
And the question wasn't about soldering stones themselves to the chalice, but
about soldering the findings, heads or bezels, etc. Looked at that way, it's a
little less clueless sounding, and more along the lines of a question one might
reasonably try to answer, I'd think.

Your comment that a student 2 months into a course could do it is true
also, however it implies that there is a teacher to point the student in
the right direction and that the premises where the teaching /learning
takes place has the correct equipment to do what the student aspires to
make.
Jack on the otherhand is presumably working from home, without the
benefit of a master to guide him so he faces the difficulty of finding
out himself the following.

So it may take him longer or a few more tries. My observations with adults
who've achieved some success with other do it yourself hobbies or professions
(as Jack's web site strongly suggests) are less timid, and quicker to learn from
their own mistakes than the aformentioned sophomores, who as often as not, are
still barely beyond the stage of trying to figure out which end of the pliers to
hold onto. I would be far more confident that someone like Jack could take the
needed info from a discussion group post, and put it to good use, than less
confident or experienced hobbyists, even if his experience isn't directly in
precious metal working.

I ll stand up and be counted on the point that its going to be really
difficult for Jack to get the results he wants without a lot of research
,experimentation, and technical exenditure on his part. I can assure you
both Its nothing personal.

I don't disupute that point, but i'd remind you that this is his intention,
perhaps, and much of the quest is in his control. For example, he's totally in
control of the design, not needing to make his chalice conform to anyones
definition thereof beyond his own. That opens much opportunity that doesn't
exist when someone with more training feels a chalice must conform to some
certain design types. And i'd also suggest that if indeed the task he's trying
is too much to expect, the way to show this is with detailed information on what
he needs to do, or pointers to that info. It's then easy for him to decide
whether or not the task is too much. If we here in the list just go "tut tut,
you'll never manage that", then we've taken the decision away from him, which
isnt' appropriate in this case. Were I teaching a class, and some student
tried to bite off more of a task than they were prepared for, I'd certainly try
to steer them in a more manageable task. But this isn't a classroom. It's not
for us to judge what a poster may or may not be capable of.

Peter

"ted.ffrater"

Your right, of course, im from the old school of European precious metal
working ,but I like to think im honest with it even if it upsets some of
the people some of the time....

Very little upsets me but that is not to say that I don't rise to the
challenge when at the receiving end of gratuitous put downs.

I do stand by my comments tho , about Jack's plans to make a silver
chalice decorated with set stones....

Apparently the old school was short on reading comprehension instructions.
I never said nor implied that I planned to make a silver chalice.

All one can go on in any comment I make is the writers written word,,
so when its said the plan is to set the stones with a torch one has to
assume thats what the enquirer wants to do....

So where in the "written word" did you find making the chalice?

I know Peter called your attention to the creative editing but have read
several pages of yours based on it, I could not resist a few lines of my
own.

As I expected, most of what I needed to know can be learned in a few
paragraphs.

And for what it's worth, it is entirely too easy to write books these days
and I quit buying this sort of instructional book when I learned that most
of them are junk and/or do not answer the questions that I have. I live in
the boondocks and a good library or book store is an hours drive at least so
I have really come to depend on this blessing from Al Gore.

js


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"Peter W. Rowe"

Ted's post does have some good starting points....

As a probably unintended point, I was not even aware of the term holloware
so that enhanced my search greatly.

But I'll disagree with him that it's so hard to learn.

There is the old joke about rocket science and sausage making. It's all
sausage making if you know how to do it.

Please don't consider using any solder that melts low enough for an
iron.....

Perhaps, I have a reason that did not occur even to me as I get into this.

I can not find and am not ready to make a silver chalice of the sort I want
at a price that I can justify, at least for a practice piece. So, I am sort
of forced to consider plated brass or some other material.

From my experience so far with a plated pewter cup, the silver beads up and
the finding melted half way through the cup before I realized what was
happening. I was using a torch that was too big for the job and thought the
material was brass.

It now seems intuitive that I will have to use low temp solder, make a mess
and gold plate the finished cup.

Even the silver bearing ones are just not good strong joints.....

From my experience with solder, one would have to get rather violent to
knock off a finding soldered this way. Surely, it or the stone would be
damaged before the joint would fail and it's gotta be better than super
glue.

Even with these solders, you'll have the best luch using a small torch to
put the pieces
on.to the goblet.

Well, that is the way I am headed but one of my unasked questions is dealing
with the problem of heating only the area to be soldered so all the previous
joints don't fall off. I noticed in a McMaster catalog some sort of heat
sink paste that I guess I could surround the setting with. Is this a
useful approach?

One web site you can go to for some reasearch is the Ganoksin.com
site.....

Been there.

the home of the Orchid mail list, a far busier discussion site for jewelry
makers........

Didn't notice the list.

And if you like feel free to contact me via private email for any
additional
pointers or questions you might run into. I'll be happy to help you
figure this
out.

Thanks but I presume aside from Ted, there might be other beginners
interested in the discussion.

By the way, your web site is inspiring indeed. How do you find the time
for
quite so many projects and interests?

That's one of the reasons I "retired" at age 40. I don't have time for a
real job.

js


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