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Traditional methods of diamond identification:-



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 29th 09, 10:33 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
ted frater
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 133
Default Traditional methods of diamond identification:-

William Black wrote:
Abrasha wrote:

Dude, it's time you educate
yourself and stop with your inane ramblings, and feigned interest in a
variety of subjects.


He's operating in India, an environment where the only formal training
available is in jewellery design, and the design taught is computer
based, stereotyped and almost totally rigid.

In India there is little or no respect for craft skills and craftsmen
are paid very little.

There aren't any schools where he will be able to pick up useful
professional level practical skills, except those run for ladies who
want a hobby.

This has advantages, a plumber or an electrician costs about $10 a day,
and disadvantages in that highly skilled craftsmen such as jewellers
(Karigars) are paid little and learn their skills sat at their father's
feet.

Now musical instrument makers and cabinet makers can set up as
self-employed, their raw materials cost little there. But an Indian
working in precious metals almost certainly can't afford the raw
materials and tools to set up by himself, especially somewhere like
Mumbai (where I live when I'm in India) where rents are high and
commercial rents are astronomical.

Every respectable Indian lady has a jeweller, but he sits in his shop
and designs things on his shop computer for his customers and employs
poorly paid craftsmen to make the stuff.

The idea that a respectable Indian jeweller would make his own items,
or even have the practical skills to make them after designing them
would sound slightly absurd in a society when the normal mode of speech
for a person talking about a piece of jewellery they have had made by
their jeweller is: 'I have made this pendant'.

The guy's got problems not of his making, but, to be honest, what he
actually needs to get out of India and into one of the big European or
US jewellery schools for a couple of years.


If as you describe, the jewellery trade in India and the craftsmen
working in it are devided into those who design and those who make.
the latter being poorly paid.
It cannot be that simple.
Because some one somewhere has to find the money to pay for the raw
materials and jewels before the said poorly paid worker can start.
Does the designer ask for say half the cost up front?
Or does he supply the craftsman with the gold/silver and stones?
someone has to fund the exercise.
Wether in India or here.
Just curious.
Ted
Ads
  #2  
Old September 29th 09, 06:49 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
polymer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default Traditional methods of diamond identification:-

On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 02:33:13 -0700, Ted Frater wrote:

William Black wrote:
Abrasha wrote:

Dude, it's time you educate
yourself and stop with your inane ramblings, and feigned interest in a
variety of subjects.


He's operating in India, an environment where the only formal training
available is in jewellery design, and the design taught is computer
based, stereotyped and almost totally rigid.

In India there is little or no respect for craft skills and craftsmen
are paid very little.

There aren't any schools where he will be able to pick up useful
professional level practical skills, except those run for ladies who
want a hobby.

This has advantages, a plumber or an electrician costs about $10 a
day,
and disadvantages in that highly skilled craftsmen such as jewellers
(Karigars) are paid little and learn their skills sat at their father's
feet.

Now musical instrument makers and cabinet makers can set up as
self-employed, their raw materials cost little there. But an Indian
working in precious metals almost certainly can't afford the raw
materials and tools to set up by himself, especially somewhere like
Mumbai (where I live when I'm in India) where rents are high and
commercial rents are astronomical.

Every respectable Indian lady has a jeweller, but he sits in his shop
and designs things on his shop computer for his customers and employs
poorly paid craftsmen to make the stuff.

The idea that a respectable Indian jeweller would make his own items,
or even have the practical skills to make them after designing them
would sound slightly absurd in a society when the normal mode of speec=

h
for a person talking about a piece of jewellery they have had made by
their jeweller is: 'I have made this pendant'.

The guy's got problems not of his making, but, to be honest, what he
actually needs to get out of India and into one of the big European or
US jewellery schools for a couple of years.


If as you describe, the jewellery trade in India and the craftsmen
working in it are devided into those who design and those who make.
the latter being poorly paid.
It cannot be that simple.
Because some one somewhere has to find the money to pay for the raw
materials and jewels before the said poorly paid worker can start.
Does the designer ask for say half the cost up front? Or does he
supply the craftsman with the gold/silver and stones? someone has to
fund the exercise.
Wether in India or here.
Just curious.
Ted


Yes, and then there is the matter of their traditional jewelry,
and techniques. Surely that has not died altogether?
  #3  
Old September 29th 09, 06:50 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
William Black
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 77
Default Traditional methods of diamond identification:-

Ted Frater wrote:

If as you describe, the jewellery trade in India and the craftsmen
working in it are devided into those who design and those who make.
the latter being poorly paid.
It cannot be that simple.
Because some one somewhere has to find the money to pay for the raw
materials and jewels before the said poorly paid worker can start.
Does the designer ask for say half the cost up front?
Or does he supply the craftsman with the gold/silver and stones?
someone has to fund the exercise.
Wether in India or here.


The people who own jewellery businesses in India are, in reality,
bullion dealers rather then jewellers.

Because of a tax levied on gold entering India the bullion business
there can be a very murky business indeed.

The cost of turning gold into jewellery in India is trivial compared to
the cost of the raw materials

The designers I've met are all related to the chap who runs the bullion
business, so they're 'family'. Nepotism is respectable in India and
jewellery design is not terribly difficult if what people want is 'more
of the same but slightly different engraving please'.

Because the political system has always been a touch unstable people
want portable wealth and jewellery is one way of having that without
suspicion that you've got a sack of gold bars under the bed.

Just about every branch of every bank in India has a safe deposit vault
under it where the family's gold is stashed.

The craftsmen are almost incidental in all this. They're just people
turning the family's wealth into something that can be displayed without
vulgarity.

It's all really a lot more complicated than that, and there are lots of
social pressures involved.

Layered on top of that there are the factories making jewellery for
export who don't appear to be factories at all but seem to use 'home
workers' as their labour source. They're all locked into exclusive
contracts with overseas companies and won't sell domestically.

Jewellery is big business in India, but there aren't any big
manufacturers, the shopkeepers make their own stuff in their own
workshops, but very little of it is what you'd call 'exciting'.


--
William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.
  #4  
Old September 30th 09, 03:20 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
William Black
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 77
Default Traditional methods of diamond identification:-

polymer wrote:
On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 02:33:13 -0700, Ted Frater wrote:

William Black wrote:
Abrasha wrote:

Dude, it's time you educate
yourself and stop with your inane ramblings, and feigned interest in a
variety of subjects.
He's operating in India, an environment where the only formal training
available is in jewellery design, and the design taught is computer
based, stereotyped and almost totally rigid.

In India there is little or no respect for craft skills and craftsmen
are paid very little.

There aren't any schools where he will be able to pick up useful
professional level practical skills, except those run for ladies who
want a hobby.

This has advantages, a plumber or an electrician costs about $10 a
day,
and disadvantages in that highly skilled craftsmen such as jewellers
(Karigars) are paid little and learn their skills sat at their father's
feet.

Now musical instrument makers and cabinet makers can set up as
self-employed, their raw materials cost little there. But an Indian
working in precious metals almost certainly can't afford the raw
materials and tools to set up by himself, especially somewhere like
Mumbai (where I live when I'm in India) where rents are high and
commercial rents are astronomical.

Every respectable Indian lady has a jeweller, but he sits in his shop
and designs things on his shop computer for his customers and employs
poorly paid craftsmen to make the stuff.

The idea that a respectable Indian jeweller would make his own items,
or even have the practical skills to make them after designing them
would sound slightly absurd in a society when the normal mode of speec=

h
for a person talking about a piece of jewellery they have had made by
their jeweller is: 'I have made this pendant'.

The guy's got problems not of his making, but, to be honest, what he
actually needs to get out of India and into one of the big European or
US jewellery schools for a couple of years.


If as you describe, the jewellery trade in India and the craftsmen
working in it are devided into those who design and those who make.
the latter being poorly paid.
It cannot be that simple.
Because some one somewhere has to find the money to pay for the raw
materials and jewels before the said poorly paid worker can start.
Does the designer ask for say half the cost up front? Or does he
supply the craftsman with the gold/silver and stones? someone has to
fund the exercise.
Wether in India or here.
Just curious.
Ted


Yes, and then there is the matter of their traditional jewelry,
and techniques. Surely that has not died altogether?


Goodness no.

It is very much as it always was.

There is some spectacular work being done and it displays marvellous
mechanical skills.

But it's all the bloody same...


--
William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.
  #5  
Old September 30th 09, 06:40 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Ganesh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 28
Default Traditional methods of diamond identification:-

On Sep 29, 10:50 pm, William Black
wrote:
business, so they're 'family'. Nepotism is respectable in India and
jewellery design is not terribly difficult if what people want is 'more
of the same but slightly different engraving please'.


There are 2 sides for every coin. From one angle Nepotism is wrong as
it favors ones progeny. But, from another angle it is also duty of
one's parents to see that their children are well to do and stable
before letting them free hands. This keeps harmony and love amongst
society as well.

On the other hand *some people* on the pretext of Nepotism, leave
their children unattended in baby sittings, hostels and then spend
their time enjoying their own lives skipping their duties and even
take divorce multiple times. This makes the future citizens rude, and
careless. Children see their parents and follow their path.

But, certainly one has to know where to draw the line.....

One cannot actually use that when controlling a state. Also, to judge
if a son is not a better controller of the state just because his
father acquired it, would be foolish and unjustified to the son as
well. Would it be right on the part of the son if he is denied an
opportunity just because his father got one? what if he actually
deserved one?

Also, the progeny of a lion is a lion. That of a dog is a dog. That of
a cat is a cat. And, there's a good change of a artist to be an
artist. Some characteristics are transferred genetically. A good breed
of horse will give birth to a similar one. So, could be in case of a
business man as well.

So, before criticizing something one need to give a deep thought over
it.
  #6  
Old September 30th 09, 06:43 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
polymer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default Traditional methods of diamond identification:-

On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 19:20:33 -0700, William Black wrote:

polymer wrote:
On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 02:33:13 -0700, Ted Frater wrote:

William Black wrote:
Abrasha wrote:

Dude, it's time you educate
yourself and stop with your inane ramblings, and feigned interest in
a variety of subjects.
He's operating in India, an environment where the only formal
training available is in jewellery design, and the design taught is
computer based, stereotyped and almost totally rigid.

In India there is little or no respect for craft skills and craftsmen
are paid very little.

There aren't any schools where he will be able to pick up useful
professional level practical skills, except those run for ladies who
want a hobby.

This has advantages, a plumber or an electrician costs about $10 a
day,
and disadvantages in that highly skilled craftsmen such as
jewellers
(Karigars) are paid little and learn their skills sat at their
father's feet.

Now musical instrument makers and cabinet makers can set up as
self-employed, their raw materials cost little there. But an Indian
working in precious metals almost certainly can't afford the raw
materials and tools to set up by himself, especially somewhere like
Mumbai (where I live when I'm in India) where rents are high and
commercial rents are astronomical.

Every respectable Indian lady has a jeweller, but he sits in his
shop and designs things on his shop computer for his customers and
employs poorly paid craftsmen to make the stuff.

The idea that a respectable Indian jeweller would make his own items,
or even have the practical skills to make them after designing them
would sound slightly absurd in a society when the normal mode of
speech for a person talking about a piece of jewellery they have had made by
their jeweller is: 'I have made this pendant'.

The guy's got problems not of his making, but, to be honest, what
he actually needs to get out of India and into one of the big
European or US jewellery schools for a couple of years.


If as you describe, the jewellery trade in India and the craftsmen
working in it are devided into those who design and those who make.
the latter being poorly paid.
It cannot be that simple.
Because some one somewhere has to find the money to pay for the raw
materials and jewels before the said poorly paid worker can start.
Does the designer ask for say half the cost up front? Or does he
supply the craftsman with the gold/silver and stones? someone has to
fund the exercise.
Wether in India or here.
Just curious.
Ted


Yes, and then there is the matter of their traditional jewelry, and
techniques. Surely that has not died altogether?


Goodness no.

It is very much as it always was.

There is some spectacular work being done and it displays marvellous
mechanical skills.

But it's all the bloody same...


Bloody sameness? In what way?
  #7  
Old September 30th 09, 08:32 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Al Balmer[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12
Default Traditional methods of diamond identification:-

On Wed, 30 Sep 2009 10:43:05 -0700, polymer
wrote:

But it's all the bloody same...


Bloody sameness? In what way?


The last five messages have quoted the *entire* preceding message.
That's too much bloody sameness.

--
Al Balmer
Sun City, AZ
  #8  
Old October 1st 09, 06:07 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
William Black
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 77
Default Traditional methods of diamond identification:-

polymer wrote:
On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 19:20:33 -0700, William Black wrote:

polymer wrote:
On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 02:33:13 -0700, Ted Frater wrote:

[snip]

It is very much as it always was.

There is some spectacular work being done and it displays marvellous
mechanical skills.

But it's all the bloody same...


Bloody sameness? In what way?


Indian gold jewellery being sold today is based on a set of standard
designs that don't seem to have changed significantly in at least the
past couple of hundred years.

The pictures of the lady Ganesh posted links to a couple of weeks ago
could have been wearing (very expensive) jewellery made last week rather
than over 100 years ago.

Gold jewellery is routinely inherited and worn and doesn't look any
different in style when worn with new stuff.

All that varies is the engraving

--
William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.
  #9  
Old October 1st 09, 06:07 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Al Balmer[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12
Default Traditional methods of diamond identification:-

On Wed, 30 Sep 2009 10:43:05 -0700, polymer
wrote:

But it's all the bloody same...


Bloody sameness? In what way?


The last five messages have quoted the *entire* preceding message.
That's too much bloody sameness.

--
Al Balmer
Sun City, AZ
  #10  
Old October 1st 09, 06:09 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Ganesh[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Traditional methods of diamond identification:-

On Sep 30, 10:40=A0pm, Ganesh wrote:
On Sep 29, 10:50 pm, William Black
wrote:

business, so they're 'family'. Nepotism is respectable in India and
jewellery design is not terribly difficult if what people want is 'more
of the same but slightly different engraving please'.


There are 2 sides for every coin.

[snip]

So, before criticizing something one need to give a deep thought over
it.


oops... please ignore the spellings....
 




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