Sparex pickle

I've just had a brainstorm that you good people may be able to help me with.
8D

It occurred to me that since sparex turns into a copper plating solution
when iron is added to it, that I could use that to give a coppery color to
pieces of a knife, such as a stainless steel blade, bolsters and other
parts. We're always on the lookout for new and different ways to embellish
our work. Titanium anodizing looks good, so I'm wondering if I can get a
copper finish this way without damaging the metal.

I have a pickle pot for jewelry.

Do you think that adding a copper bar to the pot might get enough copper
into solution for this?

Custom Made Knives and Jewelry
by Don Robinson
http://home.rgv.rr.com/donrob

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 18:26:34 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Don Robinson"
wrote:

I've just had a brainstorm that you good people may be able to help me with.
8D


Watch out for those brainstorms... :-)

It occurred to me that since sparex turns into a copper plating solution
when iron is added to it,

It doesn't. Long use of a sparex pickle dissolves copper oxides from the
jewelry metals being pickled. If you then put a metal like silver or gold,
which has a low degree of chemical reactivity, into the liquid while it is also
in contact with a metal, like iron, with a higher degree of reactivity
(actually, the property is called 'electronegativity", but thinking of it as
reactivity may help), then you set up what amounts to a battery, or galvanic
cell. the iron dissolves, and in doing this it becomes ionized. when this
happens, other ions in the solution become UNionized, balanceing the
electrical charges. The result is that copper, which is less reactive than
iron, comes out of solution when the iron goes in, and it does it by plating
out on the silver or gold. The iron does not make the solution a copper
plating solution. What the iron does is supply the electical voltage needed to
bring the copper back out of solution.

that I could use that to give a coppery color to
pieces of a knife, such as a stainless steel blade, bolsters and other
parts. We're always on the lookout for new and different ways to embellish
our work. Titanium anodizing looks good, so I'm wondering if I can get a
copper finish this way without damaging the metal.

Well, the trick to this question is the bit about damaging the metal. If the
part is stainless, and resists the acid attack of the solution, then copper
will not plate out unless you add a battery to the setup. if the iron is not
stainless, (or some of the less resistant stainless alloys, such as many of the
440 type hardenable alloys you might be using), then it will plate out with
copper, but will do it because some of the iron dissolves, forcing copper out.
That continues till enough copper has deposited on the surface so no more iron
can dissolve. But these types of copper deposit tend to be porous and poorly
adherant to the metal, so it's not only a somewhat poor plating, but attack of
the underylying metal can continue for some time.

Whether this is useful depends on what you wish to do. The acid is well
cleaning the steel while all this is going on, and the copper too is good and
clean, so even a light scratch brush with something soft enough to burnish the
copper instead of abrading it back off, such as a soft brass wire platers
brush, could well give you a good usable copper deposit. Worth trying, at any
rate.

But skip the bit about adding copper to pickle. Think about pickle as just a
sulphuric acid salt. With copper added in solution, it's copper sulphate
solution. Acid copper plating baths are easy to make yourself. Just add
crystaline copper sulphate (you can get this at the hardware store. Cheap. I
think it's called blue vitriol or something, if not copper sulphate. Used to
treat for algae and moss, etc. Then, if you wish, some baths will wish a bit
of sulphuric acid added, so there's some excess free acid in the solution.
Untracht, and several other books will have exact recipes. Now, people doing
this intending a really good plate will likely get fancier, often adding
brighteners to give the deposit a finer grain and surface levelling qualities,
which translates to a bright shine, when it works right. The best of these are
proprietary, but often things like a bit of molasses will move the soltuion at
least partially in that direction. Use just a little and see what happens.
And I'd suggest doing the plating with an actual battery, rather just as an
immersion plate. you'll get a better deposit. Copper plates at very low
voltages, but can use fairly high amps. 1.5 volts is quite enough, usually.
if you add some things like bubblers or stirrers, good sediment filters, and
use the commercial brighteners, you'd have a solution quite capable of doing
substantial electroforming, as well as surface plating.

If you wish a copper plate that does not etch the steel as it goes on, then
you'd have to investigate pre-plate deposits, often nickle, to protect the iron
from the acid. And some stainless won't plate well without a "strike" plate
first with a surface activating bath. If memory serves (and I could be wrong
here), I seem to recall these are based on phosphoric acid. The purpose is to
remove the surface passivating layer from stainless (the formation of which is
what makes it stainless, after all), since that oxide layer interferes with
good plating adhesion.

Do you think that adding a copper bar to the pot might get enough copper
into solution for this?

No. copper itself dissolves slowly in actual sulphuric acid, but only VERY
slowly in sodium bisulphate pickle. copper OXIDE, on the other hand, dissolves
handily. So you could repeatedly heat your copper bar till it's black, then
pickle it, and repeat, to get copper into solution. But this would take time
and effort. Go to the hardware store. A pound of copper sulphate crystals
will cost just a few dollars, I think. And if you don't use them after all,
they're a very pretty dark blue, so then you'd put them in a nice glass jar and
put them on a shelf in the sun where they'd be more decorative than most of the
chemicals in your life. And if you want REALLY decorative ones, dissolve the
stuff in distilled or deionized water, put it in a jar with a loose cover, and
let is slowly evaporate. The stuff forms really pretty crystals, and when
freshly and crisply crystalized like that, instead of the broken up crystal
chunks or powder you'll buy in the store, you'll have crystal clusters that
will rival some nice gems. Being water soluable, of course, kinda limits their
decorative use to sitting on the shelf, but what the hey. it's fun.


peter

Why not do it right? Make up a -*real*- Cu plating solution and
electroplate your parts in a _repeatable_ manner.

--

Don Thompson

"The only stupid questions are those that should have been asked, but
weren't, or those that have been asked and answered over and over, but the
answers not listened to." Peter Rowe


"Don Robinson" wrote in message
...
I've just had a brainstorm that you good people may be able to help me
with.
8D

It occurred to me that since sparex turns into a copper plating solution
when iron is added to it, that I could use that to give a coppery color to
pieces of a knife, such as a stainless steel blade, bolsters and other
parts. We're always on the lookout for new and different ways to embellish
our work. Titanium anodizing looks good, so I'm wondering if I can get a
copper finish this way without damaging the metal.

I have a pickle pot for jewelry.

Do you think that adding a copper bar to the pot might get enough copper
into solution for this?

Custom Made Knives and Jewelry
by Don Robinson
http://home.rgv.rr.com/donrob

Don Robinson wrote:

It occurred to me that since sparex turns into a copper plating solution
when iron is added to it, that I could use that to give a coppery color to
pieces ...................


A very old trick documented in almost every jewelry manual, so
RTFM might be the appropriate comment.

Scratches off as easily , and
the copper reacts with skin oils and the environment. With time
the piece might shift between shiny orange, then dirty grey, then
corrosion green. Copper can be patinated to several colors and
sealed with a varnish to slow this down.
--
cheers m

Thanks for the answers, Peter and Don. It seems more trouble than it's worth
for what I had in mind.

I guess that's the reason nobody else does it. 8D

And yes, that brain storm turned into a dud. 8D

--
Custom Made Knives and Jewelry
by Don Robinson
http://home.rgv.rr.com/donrob
"Don T" wrote in message
...
Why not do it right? Make up a -*real*- Cu plating solution and
electroplate your parts in a _repeatable_ manner.

--

Don Thompson

"The only stupid questions are those that should have been asked, but
weren't, or those that have been asked and answered over and over, but the
answers not listened to." Peter Rowe


"Don Robinson" wrote in message
...
I've just had a brainstorm that you good people may be able to help me
with.
8D

It occurred to me that since sparex turns into a copper plating solution
when iron is added to it, that I could use that to give a coppery color
to
pieces of a knife, such as a stainless steel blade, bolsters and other
parts. We're always on the lookout for new and different ways to
embellish
our work. Titanium anodizing looks good, so I'm wondering if I can get a
copper finish this way without damaging the metal.

I have a pickle pot for jewelry.

Do you think that adding a copper bar to the pot might get enough copper
into solution for this?

Custom Made Knives and Jewelry
by Don Robinson
http://home.rgv.rr.com/donrob

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 23:37:36 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Don Robinson"
wrote:

Thanks for the answers, Peter and Don. It seems more trouble than it's worth
for what I had in mind.

I guess that's the reason nobody else does it. 8D

And yes, that brain storm turned into a dud. 8D

--
Custom Made Knives and Jewelry
by Don Robinson

Don,

if this is too much trouble, you must not want to try it very much. Perhaps
the length of my post made it seem complex? it's not really, not at least, to
just give it a try.

next time you happen to be at a good hardware store, see if they've got some
copper sulphate somewhere.

Mix a bit of it with water.

Dunk in a piece of your steel, and see what happens.

That's pretty easy to just try out, and perhaps you'll like the result. If the
steel is not a totally inert stainless, so it does etch at least a little in
the copper sulphate, then copper will plate out without additonal voltage.
Stainless that doesn't etch might require more extensive handling.

Much of my discussion was ways to extend the basic bit of chemistry all the way
to a fully commercial quality setup and all. But if all you want is some
copper flashing on your steel, what the heck. Go ahead and try it. maybe it
will give you something interesting. maybe not. What's to loose.

The main difference between this and your original idea is that I suggest using
a straight copper sulphate solution, or mostly copper sulphate with only a bit
of acid, rather than trying to modify sparex. That will maximize plating, and
minimize etching of the steel. Now, if you already have some old, already
turned light blue, thoroughly used pickle, then try it first before spending a
dime. Again, perhaps it will do something you like.

peter

Peter is just so on the ball!

And yes you need a nickel strike before the copper. Look for caswell plating
on the web if you want to spend a bit more money than need be, but it is a
one stop shop. Search Yahoo groups for plating, you will learn more than you
want to know.

Les


On 13-Feb-2004, Peter W. Rowe pwrowe@ixDOTnetcomDOTcom wrote:

X-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 22:07:35 EST (news1.east.cox.net)

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 18:26:34 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Don Robinson"
wrote:

I've just had a brainstorm that you good people may be able to help me
with.
8D


Watch out for those brainstorms... :-)

It occurred to me that since sparex turns into a copper plating solution
when iron is added to it,

It doesn't. Long use of a sparex pickle dissolves copper oxides from the
jewelry metals being pickled. If you then put a metal like silver or
gold,
which has a low degree of chemical reactivity, into the liquid while it is
also
in contact with a metal, like iron, with a higher degree of reactivity
(actually, the property is called 'electronegativity", but thinking of it
as
reactivity may help), then you set up what amounts to a battery, or
galvanic
cell. the iron dissolves, and in doing this it becomes ionized. when
this
happens, other ions in the solution become UNionized, balanceing the
electrical charges. The result is that copper, which is less reactive
than
iron, comes out of solution when the iron goes in, and it does it by
plating
out on the silver or gold. The iron does not make the solution a copper
plating solution. What the iron does is supply the electical voltage
needed to
bring the copper back out of solution.

that I could use that to give a coppery color to
pieces of a knife, such as a stainless steel blade, bolsters and other
parts. We're always on the lookout for new and different ways to
embellish
our work. Titanium anodizing looks good, so I'm wondering if I can get a
copper finish this way without damaging the metal.

Well, the trick to this question is the bit about damaging the metal. If
the
part is stainless, and resists the acid attack of the solution, then
copper
will not plate out unless you add a battery to the setup. if the iron is
not
stainless, (or some of the less resistant stainless alloys, such as many
of the
440 type hardenable alloys you might be using), then it will plate out
with
copper, but will do it because some of the iron dissolves, forcing copper
out.
That continues till enough copper has deposited on the surface so no more
iron
can dissolve. But these types of copper deposit tend to be porous and
poorly
adherant to the metal, so it's not only a somewhat poor plating, but
attack of
the underylying metal can continue for some time.

Whether this is useful depends on what you wish to do. The acid is well
cleaning the steel while all this is going on, and the copper too is good
and
clean, so even a light scratch brush with something soft enough to burnish
the
copper instead of abrading it back off, such as a soft brass wire platers
brush, could well give you a good usable copper deposit. Worth trying, at
any
rate.

But skip the bit about adding copper to pickle. Think about pickle as
just a
sulphuric acid salt. With copper added in solution, it's copper sulphate
solution. Acid copper plating baths are easy to make yourself. Just add
crystaline copper sulphate (you can get this at the hardware store.
Cheap. I
think it's called blue vitriol or something, if not copper sulphate. Used
to
treat for algae and moss, etc. Then, if you wish, some baths will wish
a bit
of sulphuric acid added, so there's some excess free acid in the solution.
Untracht, and several other books will have exact recipes. Now, people
doing
this intending a really good plate will likely get fancier, often adding
brighteners to give the deposit a finer grain and surface levelling
qualities,
which translates to a bright shine, when it works right. The best of
these are
proprietary, but often things like a bit of molasses will move the
soltuion at
least partially in that direction. Use just a little and see what
happens.
And I'd suggest doing the plating with an actual battery, rather just as
an
immersion plate. you'll get a better deposit. Copper plates at very low
voltages, but can use fairly high amps. 1.5 volts is quite enough,
usually.
if you add some things like bubblers or stirrers, good sediment filters,
and
use the commercial brighteners, you'd have a solution quite capable of
doing
substantial electroforming, as well as surface plating.

If you wish a copper plate that does not etch the steel as it goes on,
then
you'd have to investigate pre-plate deposits, often nickle, to protect the
iron
from the acid. And some stainless won't plate well without a "strike"
plate
first with a surface activating bath. If memory serves (and I could be
wrong
here), I seem to recall these are based on phosphoric acid. The purpose
is to
remove the surface passivating layer from stainless (the formation of
which is
what makes it stainless, after all), since that oxide layer interferes
with
good plating adhesion.

Do you think that adding a copper bar to the pot might get enough copper
into solution for this?

No. copper itself dissolves slowly in actual sulphuric acid, but only
VERY
slowly in sodium bisulphate pickle. copper OXIDE, on the other hand,
dissolves
handily. So you could repeatedly heat your copper bar till it's black,
then
pickle it, and repeat, to get copper into solution. But this would take
time
and effort. Go to the hardware store. A pound of copper sulphate
crystals
will cost just a few dollars, I think. And if you don't use them after
all,
they're a very pretty dark blue, so then you'd put them in a nice glass
jar and
put them on a shelf in the sun where they'd be more decorative than most
of the
chemicals in your life. And if you want REALLY decorative ones, dissolve
the
stuff in distilled or deionized water, put it in a jar with a loose cover,
and
let is slowly evaporate. The stuff forms really pretty crystals, and when
freshly and crisply crystalized like that, instead of the broken up
crystal
chunks or powder you'll buy in the store, you'll have crystal clusters
that
will rival some nice gems. Being water soluable, of course, kinda limits
their
decorative use to sitting on the shelf, but what the hey. it's fun.


peter

In article ,
Peter W. Rowe pwrowe@ixDOTnetcomDOTcom wrote:
if this is too much trouble, you must not want to try it very much.
Perhaps the length of my post made it seem complex? it's not really,
not at least, to just give it a try.
next time you happen to be at a good hardware store, see if they've got some
copper sulphate somewhere.

There's at least one professor of a jewellery school in the US who at the
end of the school year plates the school's steel stakes etc with such a
copper sulphate solution as a rust inhibitor. I picked this tip up at a
SNAG workshop (Portland I think) and tried it here many years ago. The
steel tools I 'plated' in this way certainly have retained the copper in
perts that might otherwise have rusted, and the parts of the tools that
are in relatively constant use remain un-coppered and also unrusted.

Brian

--
Brian Adam
Auckland NEW ZEALAND

Thanks for all the suggestions. If the copper sulphate solution alone would
work, and give a reasonably durable finish, then that's just what I was
looking for.

However, now we're talking about a nickel plate first, and that involves
further expense and time, and I want to avoid that. This was just a
hare-brained scheme to add another color. I don't want to become a plater.
8D


Custom Made Knives and Jewelry
by Don Robinson
http://home.rgv.rr.com/donrob

wrote in message
...
Peter is just so on the ball!

And yes you need a nickel strike before the copper. Look for caswell
plating
on the web if you want to spend a bit more money than need be, but it is a
one stop shop. Search Yahoo groups for plating, you will learn more than
you
want to know.

Les


On 13-Feb-2004, Peter W. Rowe pwrowe@ixDOTnetcomDOTcom wrote:

X-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 22:07:35 EST (news1.east.cox.net)

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 18:26:34 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Don Robinson"
wrote:

I've just had a brainstorm that you good people may be able to help me
with.
8D


Watch out for those brainstorms... :-)

It occurred to me that since sparex turns into a copper plating
solution
when iron is added to it,

It doesn't. Long use of a sparex pickle dissolves copper oxides from
the
jewelry metals being pickled. If you then put a metal like silver or
gold,
which has a low degree of chemical reactivity, into the liquid while it
is
also
in contact with a metal, like iron, with a higher degree of reactivity
(actually, the property is called 'electronegativity", but thinking of
it
as
reactivity may help), then you set up what amounts to a battery, or
galvanic
cell. the iron dissolves, and in doing this it becomes ionized. when
this
happens, other ions in the solution become UNionized, balanceing the
electrical charges. The result is that copper, which is less reactive
than
iron, comes out of solution when the iron goes in, and it does it by
plating
out on the silver or gold. The iron does not make the solution a copper
plating solution. What the iron does is supply the electical voltage
needed to
bring the copper back out of solution.

that I could use that to give a coppery color to
pieces of a knife, such as a stainless steel blade, bolsters and other
parts. We're always on the lookout for new and different ways to
embellish
our work. Titanium anodizing looks good, so I'm wondering if I can get
a
copper finish this way without damaging the metal.

Well, the trick to this question is the bit about damaging the metal.
If
the
part is stainless, and resists the acid attack of the solution, then
copper
will not plate out unless you add a battery to the setup. if the iron
is
not
stainless, (or some of the less resistant stainless alloys, such as many
of the
440 type hardenable alloys you might be using), then it will plate out
with
copper, but will do it because some of the iron dissolves, forcing
copper
out.
That continues till enough copper has deposited on the surface so no
more
iron
can dissolve. But these types of copper deposit tend to be porous and
poorly
adherant to the metal, so it's not only a somewhat poor plating, but
attack of
the underylying metal can continue for some time.

Whether this is useful depends on what you wish to do. The acid is well
cleaning the steel while all this is going on, and the copper too is
good
and
clean, so even a light scratch brush with something soft enough to
burnish
the
copper instead of abrading it back off, such as a soft brass wire
platers
brush, could well give you a good usable copper deposit. Worth trying,
at
any
rate.

But skip the bit about adding copper to pickle. Think about pickle as
just a
sulphuric acid salt. With copper added in solution, it's copper
sulphate
solution. Acid copper plating baths are easy to make yourself. Just
add
crystaline copper sulphate (you can get this at the hardware store.
Cheap. I
think it's called blue vitriol or something, if not copper sulphate.
Used
to
treat for algae and moss, etc. Then, if you wish, some baths will
wish
a bit
of sulphuric acid added, so there's some excess free acid in the
solution.
Untracht, and several other books will have exact recipes. Now, people
doing
this intending a really good plate will likely get fancier, often adding
brighteners to give the deposit a finer grain and surface levelling
qualities,
which translates to a bright shine, when it works right. The best of
these are
proprietary, but often things like a bit of molasses will move the
soltuion at
least partially in that direction. Use just a little and see what
happens.
And I'd suggest doing the plating with an actual battery, rather just
as
an
immersion plate. you'll get a better deposit. Copper plates at very
low
voltages, but can use fairly high amps. 1.5 volts is quite enough,
usually.
if you add some things like bubblers or stirrers, good sediment filters,
and
use the commercial brighteners, you'd have a solution quite capable of
doing
substantial electroforming, as well as surface plating.

If you wish a copper plate that does not etch the steel as it goes on,
then
you'd have to investigate pre-plate deposits, often nickle, to protect
the
iron
from the acid. And some stainless won't plate well without a "strike"
plate
first with a surface activating bath. If memory serves (and I could be
wrong
here), I seem to recall these are based on phosphoric acid. The purpose
is to
remove the surface passivating layer from stainless (the formation of
which is
what makes it stainless, after all), since that oxide layer interferes
with
good plating adhesion.

Do you think that adding a copper bar to the pot might get enough
copper
into solution for this?

No. copper itself dissolves slowly in actual sulphuric acid, but only
VERY
slowly in sodium bisulphate pickle. copper OXIDE, on the other hand,
dissolves
handily. So you could repeatedly heat your copper bar till it's black,
then
pickle it, and repeat, to get copper into solution. But this would take
time
and effort. Go to the hardware store. A pound of copper sulphate
crystals
will cost just a few dollars, I think. And if you don't use them after
all,
they're a very pretty dark blue, so then you'd put them in a nice glass
jar and
put them on a shelf in the sun where they'd be more decorative than most
of the
chemicals in your life. And if you want REALLY decorative ones,
dissolve
the
stuff in distilled or deionized water, put it in a jar with a loose
cover,
and
let is slowly evaporate. The stuff forms really pretty crystals, and
when
freshly and crisply crystalized like that, instead of the broken up
crystal
chunks or powder you'll buy in the store, you'll have crystal clusters
that
will rival some nice gems. Being water soluable, of course, kinda
limits
their
decorative use to sitting on the shelf, but what the hey. it's fun.


peter

In article , "Don Robinson"
wrote:
I've just had a brainstorm.

Well, here's another -- get two carbons out of a dud 1.5v battery and a
scrap battery with some life left in it.

Connect up,a carbon to each pole of the battery. Take everything outside,
where a bit of acid spray will not matter. Put the carbons in some used
pickle and leave until the old battery is quite dead. Repeat using up all
the old batteries you have, or until the pickle is clear again. It ought to
be usable again. Might work, at least you can throw away all your scrap
batteries instead of hoarding them, "in case they might be some good later."

Igor


--
igor
_____________________________________________
Acorn RISC OS4
_____________________________________________