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#1
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choosing tools for working jasper/chalcedony/quartz
Good morning,
after reading the very useful reply about grinding options, I'm asking for help deciding how to tackle the rocks I've been picking up around my yard and neighbourhood, here in the north of St. Lucia, West Indies. They are, I believe, mostly red-yellow jasper, chalcedony or milky quartz. They easily scratch glass. I have some pics here ( http://www.flickr.com/photos/2278716...7619773039586/ ) if that helps, the jaspers shown aren't the best ones I have, but my main collection got 'stored' by the yard guy who used them to prop up some concrete slabs. I figure they're safe there for now. I know they're not 'valuable' in terms of rarity, but they're worth making into jewellery because they use local materials, which in these islands is not something you find often! Most as small pieces 1/2-4", some are big rocks. My budget is very limited, and not much is readily available here so I have to import from the US mostly. I want to be able to cut smallish pieces and polish them - I'd prefer not to get the overall rounding that rotary tumblers give (I haven't used one, that's what I read). I think I'd like to cut pieces, grind off edges and surface bumps and polish surfaces - so I don't mind a bit of topography being left in my pieces, I'd like to bring out the beauty of the rocks but I don't need smooth oval cabs. I have a dremel, I've ordered some diamond coated cutting wheels which I hope will cut small pieces but that's all I have right now. I can get the hardware store tile cutters, I can get diamond wheels for them locally, I can also get the grinders you talked about in the last post. No polishers available locally. Any guidance as to tools, attachments, etc that I could at least start with while I save up for better equipment? And what would you recommend for better equipment for me to aspire to owning? Also, recommendations on good starting books - we don't have gems here and I don't expect really to use gems other than maybe ones I buy ready for use. So I'm really looking for guidance on getting my rocks into shape many thanks Finola |
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#2
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choosing tools for working jasper/chalcedony/quartz
On Jun 15, 8:46=A0am, sunrainor wrote:
Good morning, after reading the very useful reply about grinding options, I'm asking for help deciding how to tackle the rocks I've been picking up around my yard and neighbourhood, here in the north of St. Lucia, West Indies. They are, I believe, mostly red-yellow jasper, chalcedony or milky quartz. They easily scratch glass. I have some pics here (http://www.flic= kr.com/photos/22787161@N07/sets/72157619773039586/) if that helps, the jaspers shown aren't the best ones I have, but my main collection got 'stored' by the yard guy who used them to prop up some concrete slabs. I figure they're safe there for now. I know they're not 'valuable' in terms of rarity, but they're worth making into jewellery because they use local materials, which in these islands is not something you find often! Most as small pieces 1/2-4", some are big rocks. My budget is very limited, and not much is readily available here so I have to import from the US mostly. I want to be able to cut smallish pieces and polish them - I'd prefer not to get the overall rounding that rotary tumblers give (I haven't used one, that's what I read). I think I'd like to cut pieces, grind off edges and surface bumps and polish surfaces - so I don't mind a bit of topography being left in my pieces, I'd like to bring out the beauty of the rocks but I don't need smooth oval cabs. I have a dremel, I've ordered some diamond coated cutting wheels which I hope will cut small pieces but that's all I have right now. I can get the hardware store tile cutters, I can get diamond wheels for them locally, I can also get the grinders you talked about in the last post. No polishers available locally. Any guidance as to tools, attachments, etc that I could at least start with while I save up for better equipment? And what would you recommend for better equipment for me to aspire to owning? Also, recommendations on good starting books - we don't have gems here and I don't expect really to use gems other than maybe ones I buy ready for use. So I'm really looking for guidance on getting my rocks into shape many thanks Finola Finola, Initially, you may begin by attaching several grades of sandpaper, coarse to fine, onto a table, and simply rub your stones across it, grinding edges as well as flattening some of the surface. Continue to the finer grades until you reach approximately the size you are aiming for. Yes, it can take time and patience, but replaces costly wheels and arbors. When you have finished with the sandpaper, then go to your Dremel, and use grinding wheels as needed, and then go to polishing wheels. Hardware and do it yourself stores may have assortments of these wheels according to task, grinding, polishing. If not then you are looking for Mizzy types to rubber wheels. The functions are first to grind away maximum, then finer and finer to reduce the scratches from grinding, and then finally polishing with a compound. Terrie Masters |
#3
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choosing tools for working jasper/chalcedony/quartz
Finola, I'd add a couple notes to Theresa's advice. When she suggests sandpaper, I'd note that you should be using a type that uses aluminum oxide, or silicon carbide, as the abrasive. Not garnet, etc. Use abrasive paper intended for auto body work or work on metal, rather than wood. The silicon carbide paper will work better, but emery or aluminum oxide is OK. Also, if you get "wet/dry" paper, than you can add a bit of water to the paper. That keeps the paper from loading up, and can speed cutting. In most lapidary work, the sanding and grinding (and often polishing) is done wet, in part to avoid build up of heat when using motorized wheels. With hand sanding, that's less an issue, but it still can improve the action a bit. For polishing, most of the polishing agents used for metal won't work well. You need tin oxide, cerium oxide, or another of the polishinjg agents used for stone. These are often effective when used on a piece of leather or canvas when polishing by hand, and need to be used wet. Not very wet. Just a sort of damp paste on the surface of the leather or cloth. You can also use diamond compounds, sold for lapidary use, and these are used as is (no water) or with a little "extender fluid" sold for that purpose. These same compounds are also sold in coarser grits, and can be used for initial sanding and smoothing. A good type of beginner polishing machine uses wood "spools", which are wheels perhaps three inches in diameter or so, often with a concave curve to the front, set up for fairly low rpm rotation. Usually the spools are made from a longer piece of maple, lathe turned so several working surfaces are presented next to each other, each used with successively finer grits. If you can find a picture of such a machine, you can figure out ways to rig up something like it for yourself, if you can find someone with a lathe who cam make the hardwood spools for you. These machines differ from most lapidary equipment in that they are used without water, which greatly simplfies the whole setup. I know one hobbyist who mounts a set of such spools on an arbor which he puts in a variable speed electric drill which he built a stand for. The whole setup cost him next to nothing, aside from buying the diamond compounds, since he knew someone with a lathe to turn the spools for him. He gets a nice polish on this setup. Note that this is for minor sanding and then polishing. The major shaping of the rock is still done on grinding wheels, but again, this fellow does this with his trusty electric drill and a drill mounted gringing wheel. For this, he has the lower edge of the wheel running against a damp sponge to keep things cool, and a low speed helps too. I worry a bit about using water in any form near the electric drill, but he's careful not to get the drill (which is also well insulated) wet in the process... The whole setup is very simple, and slow, and a bit crude. But for the very occasional times he wishes to polish a rock, it works, so he doesn't need to spend more on "real" equipment. And then there's your dremel type tool... One of the keys to all this is that in general, slower speeds work well, even if more slowly. High speed tools tend to "burn" the stone, with heat build up causing fracturing etc. This may be a problem with your dremel and it's attachments. Use it's lower speeds for best results. You can get small diamond abrasive grinding points that will work well for shaping stone, especially with water or oil as a coolant. The little electroplated types (very cheap, often made in china) work well,but don't last long. Better are the more costly sintered types where the diamond is not just a thin surface layer. These points in your dremel can be used to shape and carve the stones. Other conventional abrasives, if of aluminum oxide or silicon carbide, will also work for shaping and sanding your stones. As I mentioned above, though, most of what works for actually polishng metal won't work well on stone. You need the types of oxide polish that do work on stone, including cerium oxide, aluminum oxide, tin oxide, or the various diamond compounds. If you intend to do a fair amount of this type of work, eventually you'll want an actual lapidary machine. Simplest are the small "all in one" combination units. Usually these are set up to allow a small lapidary saw blade on one side of the motor or grinding arbor, so you can cut slices, or cut rocks in half, or trim bits to the size you wish without having to just grind everything else away. Then the other side of the machine can be used to mount various types of grinding wheels, sanding drums, polishing discs, etc. The main thing that sets these small units apart from a normal hardware store grinder is that they are set up to use a water lubricant for both sawing and grinding, etc. And the speeds they are set up to run are suited to lapidary work rather than the usually faster speeds of normal grinding motors. In searching through various catalogs and machine types, you will see many expensive and fancy setups. These are all well and good when your budget allows, but even the simplest, cheapest little combination unit will allow you to do the job if you wish. Occasionally one sees such things on ebay too. Hardware store tile cutters, if of the type that uses a wet rotating diamond saw blade to cut the tile, will work on your jaspers too. That's more power than you usually need for small scale lapidary work though, and unless you can find a cheap used unit, probably more costly than a simple lapidary trim saw... Hope that helps. Peter Rowe |
#4
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choosing tools for working jasper/chalcedony/quartz
On Jun 17, 12:25*pm, Peter W. Rowe
wrote: *Finola, (snip) If you intend to do a fair amount of this type of work, eventually you'll want an actual lapidary machine. *Simplest are the small "all in one" combination units. (snip) Thanks Peter and Terrie - very useful and do-able information. I am back in Barbados again and my rocks are in St. Lucia but I brought across a mid sized one to try out your suggestions with. I did a bit of looking and found some combo machines - do you allow posting links to stores? If so, could you guys take a look see and let me know if you have any opinion/experience with them? If not, here's the description: "The SwapTop Trim Saw is the all purpose, full feature trim saw for all your stone, tile, ceramic, and hobby projects. It will handle large slabs up to 1 inch thick, yet is precise enough for small piece work. Imagine cutting stone, marble, mosaic, tile and ceramic on the same saw that can also cut wood, wood composites, plastics, soft metals, and more with optional blades. Weighs less than 10 lbs. Includes: Motor unit, base, table housing with metal table insert, 6½" Diamond Coated Blade, blade guard, blade arbor, fence, water reservoir, and instruction guide. Size: 12" wide x 10" deep x 6.75" high Motor Type: Permanent Magnet DC Motor Torque: 48 oz-in (.339 N-m) Motor RPM: 2800 Horsepower: .086HP Arbor OD: .500" Fits 6" and 6½" blades" the top can be swapped for one with a drum for grinding - a little vertical cylinder that sits in the centre of the flat bed... the first item is under $200 but the shipping would be about another $200+ to me... I am not sure if it will cut the quartz /jasper rocks? any thoughts? worth thinking of for future or... Will let you know when I have something to report on trying your hand methods too thanks Finola |
#5
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choosing tools for working jasper/chalcedony/quartz
On Sun, 21 Jun 2009 11:06:00 -0700, sunrainor
discovered a keyboard and, for our edification and amusement, submitted On Jun 17, 12:25*pm, Peter W. Rowe wrote: *Finola, (snip) If you intend to do a fair amount of this type of work, eventually you'll want an actual lapidary machine. *Simplest are the small "all in one" combination units. (snip) Thanks Peter and Terrie - very useful and do-able information. I am back in Barbados again and my rocks are in St. Lucia but I brought across a mid sized one to try out your suggestions with. I did a bit of looking and found some combo machines - do you allow posting links to stores? If so, could you guys take a look see and let me know if you have any opinion/experience with them? If not, here's the description: "The SwapTop Trim Saw is the all purpose, full feature trim saw for all your stone, tile, ceramic, and hobby projects. The Swap Top is a fine starter machine and will handle the mentioned matwerials quite well. Our local lapidary club uses several of these units for our beginning lapidary classes; our students begin work with Brazilian agate, since it is a nice hard material. The manufacturer has used our cluib s a testing ground for these units, and we have suggested many improvements which have been incorporated into today's models. HTH. Blessed be, for sure... |
#6
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choosing tools for working jasper/chalcedony/quartz
On Sun, 21 Jun 2009 11:06:00 -0700, sunrainor
discovered a keyboard and, for our edification and amusement, submitted On Jun 17, 12:25*pm, Peter W. Rowe wrote: *Finola, (snip) If you intend to do a fair amount of this type of work, eventually you'll want an actual lapidary machine. *Simplest are the small "all in one" combination units. (snip) Thanks Peter and Terrie - very useful and do-able information. I am back in Barbados again and my rocks are in St. Lucia but I brought across a mid sized one to try out your suggestions with. I did a bit of looking and found some combo machines - do you allow posting links to stores? If so, could you guys take a look see and let me know if you have any opinion/experience with them? If not, here's the description: "The SwapTop Trim Saw is the all purpose, full feature trim saw for all your stone, tile, ceramic, and hobby projects. The Swap Top is a fine starter machine and will handle the mentioned matwerials quite well. Our local lapidary club uses several of these units for our beginning lapidary classes; our students begin work with Brazilian agate, since it is a nice hard material. The manufacturer has used our cluib s a testing ground for these units, and we have suggested many improvements which have been incorporated into today's models. HTH. Blessed be, for sure... |
#7
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choosing tools for working jasper/chalcedony/quartz
On Jun 23, 9:15*pm, Jim wrote:
On Sun, 21 Jun 2009 11:06:00 -0700, sunrainor discovered a keyboard and, for our edification and amusement, submitted On Jun 17, 12:25*pm, Peter W. Rowe wrote: *Finola, (snip) If you intend to do a fair amount of this type of work, eventually you'll want an actual lapidary machine. *Simplest are the small "all in one" combination units. (snip) Thanks Peter and Terrie - very useful and do-able information. I am back in Barbados again and my rocks are in St. Lucia but I brought across a mid sized one to try out your suggestions with. I did a bit of looking and found some combo machines - do you allow posting links to stores? If so, could you guys take a look see and let me know if you have any opinion/experience with them? If not, here's the description: "The SwapTop Trim Saw is the all purpose, full feature trim saw for all your stone, tile, ceramic, and hobby projects. The Swap Top is a fine starter machine and will handle the mentioned matwerials quite well. Our local lapidary club uses several of these units for our beginning lapidary classes; our students begin work with Brazilian agate, since it is a nice hard material. The manufacturer has used our cluib s a testing ground for these units, and we have suggested many improvements which have been incorporated into today's models. HTH. Blessed be, for sure... Thanks Jim, when I get to the point of purchasing one, may I ask you for more specific advice on what parts to purchase? And not sure how to do this, but I'd like to be able to tell people what my stones actually are - from what I read, it's quite difficult to actually pin down unless you are either an expert of can do some tests...where does one look for help in this? We don't have 'rock shops' in these parts - our regional university has a geology dept - I will contact them for advice, but any other suggestions would be welcome. Finola |
#8
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choosing tools for working jasper/chalcedony/quartz
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:00:20 -0700, sunrainor
discovered a keyboard and, for our edification and amusement, submitted As the machine is an all-in-one, you'd probably get the best deal by purchsing the whole kit-and-kboodle. I've found in other cases that add-ons tend to cost mopre when purchesed separately. I don't think Don sells the units directly, but you'll get a fair deal from Kingsley North. I don't know if their prices are the lowest, but they don't try to cheat you, either. Google 'em and get a catalog!! Jim Thanks Jim, when I get to the point of purchasing one, may I ask you for more specific advice on what parts to purchase? And not sure how to do this, but I'd like to be able to tell people what my stones actually are - from what I read, it's quite difficult to actually pin down unless you are either an expert of can do some tests...where does one look for help in this? We don't have 'rock shops' in these parts - our regional university has a geology dept - I will contact them for advice, but any other suggestions would be welcome. Finola Blessed be, for sure... |
#9
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choosing tools for working jasper/chalcedony/quartz
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:00:20 -0700, sunrainor
discovered a keyboard and, for our edification and amusement, submitted As the machine is an all-in-one, you'd probably get the best deal by purchsing the whole kit-and-kboodle. I've found in other cases that add-ons tend to cost mopre when purchesed separately. I don't think Don sells the units directly, but you'll get a fair deal from Kingsley North. I don't know if their prices are the lowest, but they don't try to cheat you, either. Google 'em and get a catalog!! Jim Thanks Jim, when I get to the point of purchasing one, may I ask you for more specific advice on what parts to purchase? And not sure how to do this, but I'd like to be able to tell people what my stones actually are - from what I read, it's quite difficult to actually pin down unless you are either an expert of can do some tests...where does one look for help in this? We don't have 'rock shops' in these parts - our regional university has a geology dept - I will contact them for advice, but any other suggestions would be welcome. Finola Blessed be, for sure... |
#10
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choosing tools for working jasper/chalcedony/quartz
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:00:20 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry sunrainor
wrote: And not sure how to do this, but I'd like to be able to tell people what my stones actually are - from what I read, it's quite difficult to actually pin down unless you are either an expert of can do some tests...where does one look for help in this? If your stones are, indeed (as the thread title suggests) Jaspers, chalcedonies, or other quarts based materials, then you may indeed have a hard time pinning things down to an exact name. The reason is simple. There may not actually be an exact name for a specific variety. All these materials are essentially minor variations on the same stuff. Quartz is a very common mineral. When you get single solid crystals of the stuff, it can be various colors depending on what impurities are in it, thus we get purple quartz called amethyst, orange/yellows called citrine, etc. That's the simple part. After that, it gets a bit trickier. Quartz also commonly forms not as single large crystals, but as a mass of many microscopic crystals, often mixed in with other minor componants which can change the appearance or give it color. When not much else is in it, the color is a milky white, rather transluscent. If that's a mass without structure, we just call it chalcedony, which is sort of a generic catch all catagory rather than a specific type, since that also includes a number of varieties that have various colors too. When that chalcedony forms as banded layers, laid down from a water deposit, then we call it agate. Same material, but the name refers to the banded structure. Agates too, come in a wide range of appearances, some of which get named for that specific appearance or more often, the most well known source. Some agates, like moss agate, may not have such a strong banded structure, but they still get called agates. When the impurities get to a large enough layer that the pigmentation they give means the rock is no longer transluscent, but rather an opaque colored mass, then it often gets called jasper. Again, it's the same basic type of material, differing in the amount or color of the impurities. And then the jaspers get named often for where they are found, or for prominant aspects of their appearance, or both. The key here, is that agates, chalcedonies, and jaspers are all varieties of the same mineral forming in slightly different ways with differing appearances and structures. So the names given are not organized by a strict mineralogical system. If you're in an area which is not well known for it's lapidary materials, then while you may find any sort of nice variety of materials these may not exactly fit into one or another of the nicely accepted names, so you may not be able to get more precise than just "jasper" or "chalcedony" or agate. And even then, more than a few of these materials are sufficiently mixed with other minerals that even these names may not be precisely accurate. As you say, an expert in the materials could likely give you a definitive nice sounding name. But would that name always be exactly right, or different enough or more accurate from other names one might also have decided on? Not always. It's a bit of a muddy area, describing a myriad of varieties of different looks to essentially related materials that all fall within the same set of mineralogical/gemological catagories. There are a few good books published that can give you some clues. John Sinkankas, quite some years ago, published a fine book on the agates of north america. I'm not sure if that's the exact title, but it's close. Nice illustrations that would help. After that, catalogs showing gems or lapidary materials for sale will also give you clues as to appropriate names to use. Of course, not all lapidary materials are actually quartz based. There are a large number of other minerals used for gems as well, and each has it's own name or set of names for varieties of that material. Telling these apart sometimes can be done visually, and sometimes needs specific tests. You can find a number of good books out there on the subject of gem identification that can give you an idea of how this is done. The classic is Liddicoats "Gem Identification", the GIA published text on the subject used in their gem identification classes. But there are quite a number of others too. Hope that helps. Peter Rowe |
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