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#21
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"DKat" wrote in message ... The author states 'It is all these things combined that make art exciting'. What underlies that statement is "for me". These are subjective things. But what made the article raise my hackles was its form and the opening statement "I see the craft world as a kind of lagoon and the art world in general as the ocean. Some artists shelter in this lagoon, because their imagination isn't robust enough to go out into the wider sea." I find no way to not see that as an offensive insult. I am enjoying the debate however that it has generated Donna It can be taken as offensive, but in my experience there is an element of truth in it. I have heard potters/ceramic artists moan that their work takes more skill, more learning, etc than painting, yet a painting will sell for more. There is an element of truth in this. At a demostration by a master potter who is also a painter, he painted a wonderful free flowing scene on a large open bowl with underglaze. Held it up, we all went wow, then he commented that if he had painted it on paper he could have sold it for more, yet the skill of throwing this huge open bowl was undeniable. I think though what Perry was pointing out is that if you want to succeed as a crafts person, thats ok, make lovely functional work, sell it in craft exhibitions and stalls etc. But if you want to succeed as an artist you need to have something different and new and you need to sell and exhibit in Art exhibitions. It is a choice I have made not to be involved with craft markets and the like. I only put my work into good exhibitions. ) Its a big topic, I am sorry I missed lots of it because of computer problems. Annemarie |
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#22
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Xtra News wrote:
What do you all think of this article?? Be really interested to hear, do you like his work. I love it, but it sure is controversial. I listened to him give a talk a couple months ago. A very interesting man. Anyway here is the article http://nzpotters.com/FeatureArticles/GraysonPerry.cfm I, for one, don't want to be an artist, i am a craftsperson. (there is no real good word in english for what i am, in german it is Handwerker, - handworker doesn't mean anything, handyman is something else.) I thrive to make good pottery, not art. One definition i thought about, (which doesn't work for everything either) is, - art represents something else, craft represents itself. If i paint a picture, make a sculpture, it will be the picture of something, a sculpture of something. If i make a teapot, it will be a teapot, if i make a mug, it will be a mug. Of course then you get potters who make frogs for the garden, are they artists? For me, the piece i produce should fulfill the function for which it is made in the first place, when it is beautiful on top of it, great. If i make a teapot, it should be good to hold, pour well, the lid shouldn't fall off when you pour...... whether it is pleasing is up to the eye of the beholder. Monika -- -- Monika Schleidt www.schleidt.org/MSKeramik if you wish to write me a mail, remove the number from my user name |
#23
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Yeah... Like when you get the perfect glaze combination that is oh so
sweet... There is a certain magic in the craft and every kiln opening is a like opening a treasure chest. I love it! wrote in message oups.com... you've got something there ~ the *craft* process is sure fun, and when done we often say "now THAT's one nice piece!" followed by, "yeah, and look at THIS one!". ~ make more! we just had a raku party the other night - some 40 people. you should have heard the conversations around the finished pieces table that night.. for me, a fat guy former gymnast, pottery is very much like gymnastics. we learn the technique, and try & try & try again to make that perfect pot. it's simply fun enough to stay at it. yet with the right passion we slowly get into the 8's and 9's with our work. see ya steve Johnny wrote: I have enjoyed the debate that is going on concerning art and craft. This may be oversimplified, but I have always considered making the pot, the sculptural form, or painting, as the craft. The art is the result of the craft, or the actual piece. Just my 2 cents. Johnny Horner http://www.pawpawspottery.freeservers.com |
#24
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I haven't had a chance to visit here for a while, and now half of the
discussion is not accessible. Pity. Monika - English word is possibly "maker" that some people use to describe themselves ( not a perfect translation, though) However, I was browsing through my papers and found a Quote from Douglas Adams that I found worthwhile coping: ...."I get very worried about this idea of Art. I think that idea of Art kills creativity. .....And if somebody wants to come along and say"oh,it's art" that is as it might be,but I think that's for the other people to decide after the fact. It isn't what you should be aiming to do. There is nothing worse than sitting down to write a novel and saying "well, okay, I'm going to do something of high artistic worth".....But I think that you get most of the most interesting things done in fields where people don't think they are doing art, bat are merely practicing a craft, and working as good craftsman. ....I tend to get suspicious of anything that thinks it's art while it is being created....." what do you think?? Andrea "Monika Schleidt" wrote in message ... Xtra News wrote: What do you all think of this article?? Be really interested to hear, do you like his work. I love it, but it sure is controversial. I listened to him give a talk a couple months ago. A very interesting man. Anyway here is the article http://nzpotters.com/FeatureArticles/GraysonPerry.cfm I, for one, don't want to be an artist, i am a craftsperson. (there is no real good word in english for what i am, in german it is Handwerker, - handworker doesn't mean anything, handyman is something else.) I thrive to make good pottery, not art. One definition i thought about, (which doesn't work for everything either) is, - art represents something else, craft represents itself. If i paint a picture, make a sculpture, it will be the picture of something, a sculpture of something. If i make a teapot, it will be a teapot, if i make a mug, it will be a mug. Of course then you get potters who make frogs for the garden, are they artists? For me, the piece i produce should fulfill the function for which it is made in the first place, when it is beautiful on top of it, great. If i make a teapot, it should be good to hold, pour well, the lid shouldn't fall off when you pour...... whether it is pleasing is up to the eye of the beholder. Monika -- -- Monika Schleidt www.schleidt.org/MSKeramik if you wish to write me a mail, remove the number from my user name |
#25
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I agree. And I agree with Grayson Perry. Part of what I see as an issue is
that some people feel that craft is somehow less worthy than art. And that is not true. To me craft implies technical competence and art implies emotion and expression. They are not exclusive of each other. I feel that there are craftspeople who are not artists - perhaps to be less controversial a newsreporter is a craftsperson...but a poet is an artist....and when that newsreporter is writing poetry he is an artist. Now an artist has a craft....and may be competent or maybe practicing. Let's take poetry. One could follow the rules of haiku to write an automobile ad and that is low on the artistic scale, but successful on the craft scale. Children's pictures are often high on the artistic scale (especially therapeutic works) but because of their lack of skill, may not be high on the "craft" of painting, drawing etc. Most of us work hard to improve our craft so that we can be more successful and more pleased personally or professionally with our expression. As a potter, I work on new skills and improving old ones so I have multiple ways to express or build what is in my head....my craft though remains mediocre. I also think that one can become so focused on craft and technique that they lose balance and find themselves with technically wonderful work that is not very interesting or even personally satisfying. It may. however, still be very profitable. I have an acquaintance who does wildlife art. His style is pen and ink pointillism - and he says he pursues this because it sells. He is very technically competent, but has works do not pull emotion from folks - but they are very decorative and sell well. However, he is not happy and doesn't enjoy doing these. But by his own admission, he keeps score by $$$. (And fibs about his sales!) Of course having spent the first half of my life in the corporate world, I may have a different personal definition. I do believe that the business person is a craftsperson...and can be very competent - even at high levels, but not an artist. However, there is also an art to business that comes from inspiration, creativity. To me invention is art. Alexander Graham Bell's first phone is a work of art. But then I have some antique garden tools that I feel are art...not in the "garden art" decorative sense...but art because of the stories of use and gardens past that they evoke in my mind's eye. Well I have rambled long for a rainy Friday, I think I shall wander into my studio. -- Stephanie Coleman University of Phoenix Online alt email: 706.467.9579 "Xtra News" wrote in message ... "A & V" wrote in message ... I Have just read the article - thanks Annemarie - and I am surprised at some peoples reaction. I dont find the article derogarotive. Why such hostile reaction to what it says? So, I went over it again and I tend to agree with most things he says. Actualy, almost all of it. Actualy, I cant find anything that I strongly disagree with. He touched lots of aspects of art/craft in a very brief way here... skimed the surface of many (perhaps painful )issues. I would like to read more and in depth opinions. As soon as I get some ink for my ever hungry printer, I will print the article ant stick it on the wall in the studio to remind me who I am and where I want to be. Thanks again Annemarie!! Andrea Its a pleasure. We changed server and for some reason the newsgroups were not working properly for a while and consiquently I ended up starting a thread and then missing most of the interesting comments after. I tend to agree with a lot of what he said too, whats more I think his work is really great. The fact that the posts are handmade makes them less perfect than thrown vessels but thats ok with me. I listened to a talk by him when he came to NZ and he was dressed in a little girl dress then too. He was fascinating to listen to, very knowledgable charming. He showed slides of his work and life and there were a couple of photos of him in adult female clothing and he actually looked pretty good ) Whatever, I think that fact that he is a tranny is irrelevant to his work. Some of his work is challenging, ie the subject matter is rather strong, but it sure as heck evokes a response, and that to me means art ) Annemarie |
#26
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Nicely said Stephanie!
Andrea "Stephanie Coleman" wrote in message ... I agree. And I agree with Grayson Perry. Part of what I see as an issue is that some people feel that craft is somehow less worthy than art. And that is not true. To me craft implies technical competence and art implies emotion and expression. They are not exclusive of each other. I feel that there are craftspeople who are not artists - perhaps to be less controversial a newsreporter is a craftsperson...but a poet is an artist....and when that newsreporter is writing poetry he is an artist. Now an artist has a craft....and may be competent or maybe practicing. Let's take poetry. One could follow the rules of haiku to write an automobile ad and that is low on the artistic scale, but successful on the craft scale. Children's pictures are often high on the artistic scale (especially therapeutic works) but because of their lack of skill, may not be high on the "craft" of painting, drawing etc. Most of us work hard to improve our craft so that we can be more successful and more pleased personally or professionally with our expression. As a potter, I work on new skills and improving old ones so I have multiple ways to express or build what is in my head....my craft though remains mediocre. I also think that one can become so focused on craft and technique that they lose balance and find themselves with technically wonderful work that is not very interesting or even personally satisfying. It may. however, still be very profitable. I have an acquaintance who does wildlife art. His style is pen and ink pointillism - and he says he pursues this because it sells. He is very technically competent, but has works do not pull emotion from folks - but they are very decorative and sell well. However, he is not happy and doesn't enjoy doing these. But by his own admission, he keeps score by $$$. (And fibs about his sales!) Of course having spent the first half of my life in the corporate world, I may have a different personal definition. I do believe that the business person is a craftsperson...and can be very competent - even at high levels, but not an artist. However, there is also an art to business that comes from inspiration, creativity. To me invention is art. Alexander Graham Bell's first phone is a work of art. But then I have some antique garden tools that I feel are art...not in the "garden art" decorative sense...but art because of the stories of use and gardens past that they evoke in my mind's eye. Well I have rambled long for a rainy Friday, I think I shall wander into my studio. -- Stephanie Coleman University of Phoenix Online alt email: 706.467.9579 "Xtra News" wrote in message ... "A & V" wrote in message ... I Have just read the article - thanks Annemarie - and I am surprised at some peoples reaction. I dont find the article derogarotive. Why such hostile reaction to what it says? So, I went over it again and I tend to agree with most things he says. Actualy, almost all of it. Actualy, I cant find anything that I strongly disagree with. He touched lots of aspects of art/craft in a very brief way here... skimed the surface of many (perhaps painful )issues. I would like to read more and in depth opinions. As soon as I get some ink for my ever hungry printer, I will print the article ant stick it on the wall in the studio to remind me who I am and where I want to be. Thanks again Annemarie!! Andrea Its a pleasure. We changed server and for some reason the newsgroups were not working properly for a while and consiquently I ended up starting a thread and then missing most of the interesting comments after. I tend to agree with a lot of what he said too, whats more I think his work is really great. The fact that the posts are handmade makes them less perfect than thrown vessels but thats ok with me. I listened to a talk by him when he came to NZ and he was dressed in a little girl dress then too. He was fascinating to listen to, very knowledgable charming. He showed slides of his work and life and there were a couple of photos of him in adult female clothing and he actually looked pretty good ) Whatever, I think that fact that he is a tranny is irrelevant to his work. Some of his work is challenging, ie the subject matter is rather strong, but it sure as heck evokes a response, and that to me means art ) Annemarie |
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