About rolling mills.....

An Ed Reznichenko from Reston, VA, USA sent me a private email with questions
regarding rolling mills.

Ed, I responded to you and my email was bounced back by the mailer-daemon

Please supply me with a valid email address, or do not block me if you want to
receive email from me.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

And had I done that, unless one of you others had
picked up the mantle and become moderator (to date, nobody has ever even
hinted
that they'd be willing to help co-moderate the group, much less become the
lead
moderator, when I asked)

Not in this lifetime. That'd be like having another job. I know I bust your
chops on occasion about Abrasha, but please know that I really do appreciate
the time and effort you put into this newsgroup and your role in the amount of
valuable information that gets discussed here. That doesn't mean I'm going to
stop busting your chops, or stop disagreeing if I think you're wrong. It just
means that while I'm disagreeing out of one side of my typewriter, I'm glad we
have you out of the other side. )

Also, Perhaps it will help if I explain that for me, there are two hats I
wear
in this group. One is as the moderator. in that role, I administer the
group,
and decide which posts to accept or reject.

The other one, is just me. If I write a defense of something Abrasha says,
or
his posting manner, or my personal opinion of him, that's my personal
opinion.
It has nothing to do with "official" group policies.

That's fine, just keep in mind that for those of us unable to read your
mind, it's awfully hard to tell where Peter Rowe defending his friend ends, and
admonishment from the groups moderator begins. As you can tell, it is really
not a serious concern for me ), others may feel differently.

After that, once it's approved, my opinions are my own, and
subject
to the same personal preferences any of you are entitled to. Is that a
double
standard? I suppose in a manner. But it should not affect you.

Ah, but it does. Not really me so much, but it affects/influences othersin
varying amounts. Who in their right mind wants to be in a disagreement with the
newsgroup moderator? I know for a fact that a disagreement with the moderator
of rec.crafts.jewelry will not get me kicked off. I also know that this is not
a fact in other moderated groups I (and others) have been involved in. I guess
my point is to remind you that whether you know it or not, your statements DO
carry more weight than the average poster. I ask that you keep that in mind
when posting your personal preferences.

Your posts
have to meet the same standards, no more, no less, as Abrashas, my own, or
anyone elses. If I criticize someones post in a reply post, that's no
different from anything any of you might also reply. It's me, wearing my own
hat. Not usually that of the moderator, unless I'm clearly talking about
moderation issues.

Maybe we need a disclamer ). Something to the effect : "I Peter Rowe,
being of questionably sound mind (gratis newsgroup moderator, what were you
thinking?) do solemnly swear I am taking off my white hat of newsgroup
moderator, and am putting on my black hat of Abrasha defender. Furthermore
anything said from this point on will not be held against you in a court of
newsgroup moderators." You know, something like that.

Oh, and one last comment. NE333RO, you went to some pains in your most
recent
posting to quote a bunch of Abrashas posts which you felt were cases in point
where I cut him some slack.
I'd point out that what I stated was that he's been more reasonable in recent
postings, than he was years ago. So I sorta object to a number of your
quotes,
from as much as six years ago. (97, the year I first started moderating the
group...) No fair, sir.

Well.......................if fifteen minutes is "some pains" I'm guilty. I
looked for posts by Abrasha that I felt were direct personal attacks (those not
allowed by your stated standards) and I grabbed the first ten I saw without
regard to date. I went looking in response to your statement "I do not treat
Abrasha, or his posts, any differently from those of anyone else. It's possible
that I've lightened up on everyone the past couple years." I don't really see
much difference between the old ones and the new ones.

Besides, if you actually read your own quotes,
you'll
see exactly what I mean about Mr. A's recent postings in the last year or
two,
being gentler than he used to be.

OK now I'm confused. Gentle personal attacks are within the guidelines? I'm
allowed to call someone a "jackass" just so long as I proceed it with "gentle
soul"? There's way to many rules to this game. Oh, keep in mind I did not go
looking for recent quotes, I grabbed the first ten I saw that I felt met the
criteria of a personal attack.

Heck, your first quote, a reply to
Charlie,
was a reference to a joke. Or didn't you realize that? Charlie certainly
knew
it...

Did he? I know the joke. I also saw a number of references to it when I did
my search. I've seen him use it both ways. Maybe I was stretching on this one,
maybe not.

And, then, what's your point with those quotes? Those are posts some of
which
obviously were questionable.

My only point was that it was really easy to find quotes that were personal
attacks, from Abrasha, that were allowed. Supposedly they are not allowed here,
yet here they are.

They may have been approved for reasons you
might
question, but the flip side of this double standards issue would be if you
could
also show me similar posts of yours, or of anyone elses, which I'd NOT
approved.
Can you?

I don't keep posts. I am also unable to go do a google search on posts that
did not make it to the newsgroup. Kind of tuff to prove a negative. I don't
remember ANY of my posts that were rejected, being as bad as the ones from
Abrasha that made it in, but that could be selective memory on my part. I do
know it was REAL easy to find ones that fit my profile for personal attacks.

You've demonstrated only that perhaps I've allowed some posts of
Abrashas which I maybe should not have. A double standard would exist only
if
I've rejected posts of yours which were no worse.

I can prove it by the fact that no posts of mine are in the archives of
rec.crafts.jewelry that are as bad as Abrashas. You must have disallowed them.
)


And it gets confusing
too,
just how I should do this to best please the group. Some of you never want
to
see an even faintly aggressive word. Others of you then say the group is
boring
without some allowance for disagreements.

Put me down for the allowing disagreements side of this whole thing ).

NE333RO wrote:
And had I done that, unless one of you others had
picked up the mantle and become moderator (to date, nobody has ever even
hinted
that they'd be willing to help co-moderate the group, much less become the
lead
moderator, when I asked)


Not in this lifetime. That'd be like having another job. I know I bust your
chops on occasion about Abrasha, but please know that I really do appreciate
the time and effort you put into this newsgroup and your role in the amount of
valuable information that gets discussed here. That doesn't mean I'm going to
stop busting your chops, or stop disagreeing if I think you're wrong. It just
means that while I'm disagreeing out of one side of my typewriter, I'm glad we
have you out of the other side. )


Also, Perhaps it will help if I explain that for me, there are two hats I
wear
in this group. One is as the moderator. in that role, I administer the
group,
and decide which posts to accept or reject.

The other one, is just me. If I write a defense of something Abrasha says,
or
his posting manner, or my personal opinion of him, that's my personal
opinion.
It has nothing to do with "official" group policies.


That's fine, just keep in mind that for those of us unable to read your
mind, it's awfully hard to tell where Peter Rowe defending his friend ends, and
admonishment from the groups moderator begins. As you can tell, it is really
not a serious concern for me ), others may feel differently.

After that, once it's approved, my opinions are my own, and

subject
to the same personal preferences any of you are entitled to. Is that a
double
standard? I suppose in a manner. But it should not affect you.


Ah, but it does. Not really me so much, but it affects/influences othersin
varying amounts. Who in their right mind wants to be in a disagreement with the
newsgroup moderator? I know for a fact that a disagreement with the moderator
of rec.crafts.jewelry will not get me kicked off. I also know that this is not
a fact in other moderated groups I (and others) have been involved in. I guess
my point is to remind you that whether you know it or not, your statements DO
carry more weight than the average poster. I ask that you keep that in mind
when posting your personal preferences.

Your posts

have to meet the same standards, no more, no less, as Abrashas, my own, or
anyone elses. If I criticize someones post in a reply post, that's no
different from anything any of you might also reply. It's me, wearing my own
hat. Not usually that of the moderator, unless I'm clearly talking about
moderation issues.


Maybe we need a disclamer ). Something to the effect : "I Peter Rowe,
being of questionably sound mind (gratis newsgroup moderator, what were you
thinking?) do solemnly swear I am taking off my white hat of newsgroup
moderator, and am putting on my black hat of Abrasha defender. Furthermore
anything said from this point on will not be held against you in a court of
newsgroup moderators." You know, something like that.


Oh, and one last comment. NE333RO, you went to some pains in your most
recent
posting to quote a bunch of Abrashas posts which you felt were cases in point
where I cut him some slack.
I'd point out that what I stated was that he's been more reasonable in recent
postings, than he was years ago. So I sorta object to a number of your
quotes,

from as much as six years ago. (97, the year I first started moderating the

group...) No fair, sir.


Well.......................if fifteen minutes is "some pains" I'm guilty. I
looked for posts by Abrasha that I felt were direct personal attacks (those not
allowed by your stated standards) and I grabbed the first ten I saw without
regard to date. I went looking in response to your statement "I do not treat
Abrasha, or his posts, any differently from those of anyone else. It's possible
that I've lightened up on everyone the past couple years." I don't really see
much difference between the old ones and the new ones.

Besides, if you actually read your own quotes,

you'll
see exactly what I mean about Mr. A's recent postings in the last year or
two,
being gentler than he used to be.


OK now I'm confused. Gentle personal attacks are within the guidelines? I'm
allowed to call someone a "jackass" just so long as I proceed it with "gentle
soul"? There's way to many rules to this game. Oh, keep in mind I did not go
looking for recent quotes, I grabbed the first ten I saw that I felt met the
criteria of a personal attack.

Heck, your first quote, a reply to

Charlie,
was a reference to a joke. Or didn't you realize that? Charlie certainly
knew
it...


Did he? I know the joke. I also saw a number of references to it when I did
my search. I've seen him use it both ways. Maybe I was stretching on this one,
maybe not.


And, then, what's your point with those quotes? Those are posts some of
which
obviously were questionable.


My only point was that it was really easy to find quotes that were personal
attacks, from Abrasha, that were allowed. Supposedly they are not allowed here,
yet here they are.

They may have been approved for reasons you

might
question, but the flip side of this double standards issue would be if you
could
also show me similar posts of yours, or of anyone elses, which I'd NOT
approved.
Can you?


I don't keep posts. I am also unable to go do a google search on posts that
did not make it to the newsgroup. Kind of tuff to prove a negative. I don't
remember ANY of my posts that were rejected, being as bad as the ones from
Abrasha that made it in, but that could be selective memory on my part. I do
know it was REAL easy to find ones that fit my profile for personal attacks.

You've demonstrated only that perhaps I've allowed some posts of

Abrashas which I maybe should not have. A double standard would exist only
if
I've rejected posts of yours which were no worse.


I can prove it by the fact that no posts of mine are in the archives of
rec.crafts.jewelry that are as bad as Abrashas. You must have disallowed them.
)


And it gets confusing

too,
just how I should do this to best please the group. Some of you never want
to
see an even faintly aggressive word. Others of you then say the group is
boring
without some allowance for disagreements.


Put me down for the allowing disagreements side of this whole thing ).


All groups have a lot of _white__noise_.

In unmoderated groups it is trolls, which people learn to *plonk*
with their browsers' filters. The general rule in unmoderated
groups is "don't feed the trolls,"
meaning that you should filter their posts to
your plonk file instead of responding to them.

In this moderated group it is long rambling discussions about just how
the group should be moderated.

The total amount of white noise
(which I ironically seem to be
contributing to at this very moment)
seems to be *an even trade*.

I appreciate Peter's long unpaid hours and
considerable expertise.
But if this group were unmoderated,
he would have more time to concentrate
on the expertise part, and anyone
who has a bone to pick with
a Brash fella could do their own plonking (or duke it out
directly, knowing that it is off topic
and they stand the risk of getting plonked by
people they might want to
interact with at a later date).
The other up side is that posts would
appear almost immediately,
and the forum would be more conversational.

On the other hand, alt.crafts.professional became useless for
quite a long time because of trolls. I still don't bother
to post there, and I'd hate to see it happen here.

Non-redundant question:
Do craft groups somehow get a disproportionate
number of computer newbies visiting,
who are unable to defend themselves?

--
Cheers, m

On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 07:48:23 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry m
wrote:

Non-redundant question:
Do craft groups somehow get a disproportionate
number of computer newbies visiting,
who are unable to defend themselves?

Well, crafts groups tend to get artists and craftspeople, who, naturally enough,
are not as commonly computer professionals or old pros, as might visit those
groups more specifically tuned to the digital world. And those who happen to be
newbies to the net as well, won't know the conventions, or know to expect the
culture of the place. It's not surprising that it may take them a little while
to figure out how to handle things. So it might be we get a few more of those
newbies perhaps... Don't know how you'd measure it or quantify that
perception, though...

Peter

On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 07:48:23 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry m
wrote:

The total amount of white noise
(which I ironically seem to be
contributing to at this very moment)
seems to be *an even trade*.

At the moment, you're perhaps right. Do note, though, that historically, before
this group was moderated, it also got far more advertising than most unmoderated
groups. That was the main impetus for moderating the group. Even now, when
most experienced advertisers have figured out that they can't advertise here,
there's a surprising amount of advertising that I have to filter out. Of the
current posts I get, you see about half the total volume. The rest is spam and
ads. If the group weren't moderated, I think you'd find the ad volume would
drastically rise beyond what I now get, especially from ebay advertisers.

But perhaps what you're saying is that I should learn to not rise to the bait
and keep these discussions on moderation going? There, you're most likely
correct. I'll try.

Peter

The Dinkels are a beautiful mill and in my opinion the best. I am sorry to
say I own 2 sets of Durston mills and whilst they have served their purpose
you get what you pay for. I wish I had paid the extra for the Dinkels.
If you do go to the Fisher's site just click on the Union Jack to get the
English version.


Getting back to the subject, if Chris's boss is too stupid to see the
benefits of investing in a set of rolling mills then it is his loss. Keep
buying the stock, don't re-cycle your metal, keep filing or hammering and
keep the labour costs up and output down.
Now that makes good business sense

Chris

In article , m
writes:

Non-redundant question:
Do craft groups somehow get a disproportionate
number of computer newbies visiting,
who are unable to defend themselves?

--
Cheers, m

Garden groups seem to get even more, as well as those who seem to think it's
cute to use "creative spelling" in all caps for every post. Buddhist
"discussion" groups get less.
BTW, just in case you are a newbie and didn't know-- it is considered polite to
edit one' reply to a post-- only include that to which you are responding, not
the whole post (as you did...).
Kaytee
"Simplexities" on
www.eclecticbeadery.com
http://www.rubylane.com/shops/simplexities

"Chris Hackett" I am sorry to
say I own 2 sets of Durston mills and whilst they have served their purpose
you get what you pay for.

I have repaired and reground rolling mills for precision paper
and rubber products. One item used was an old monster from the time of
WW 1. A 18 wheeler would have had a load with this beast. This machine
was diffirent only in scale and motive power to a rolling mill I
recieved from a friend who did not like the PEPE mill he had. This
mill cost me nothing in cash and only my surplus duplicates of
silversmith's hammers and stakes . He later purchased a 6 " 4 roller
Durston mill which weighed more than he did. He is happy, I am happy.
I expect that my PEPE mill will last long enough to pay for its
replacement. I expect it to be in condition to sell and give good
value.

I respect our Master Jewelers for their craft and their willingness to
share their knowlage. I am in their debt. I also remember that in
earlier trade, I was considered a master of my craft ( Millwright /
Outside Machineist ) And was considered as good as any who ever ****
betweed a pair of boots.

All this PI**ING AND MOANING is interfearing with fun of learning and
exercizing new skills.
ROBB - One Tool Using Animal.

Hi Robb,
I am sorry about the "PI**ING AND MOANING" but I suppose it is just human
nature, as your reply demonstrates.

The statement seemed to me to be an expression of regret I did not buy the
right tool for the job. I own a professional workshop with between 6/7
jewellers working full time. The mills over the years get a lot of use and
abuse. I simply wish I had bought the best. I don't have a problem if
someone buys a cheap, medium priced or expensive mill that is there
business. I was simply stating that the Dinkels would have served MY
particular needs better than the Durstons.
Chris