Copyright?

What should I do if I have devised an unlisted (new?) strong, useful,
easy to tie knot? I don't want anything for it, I really want to share it
far and wide... but I don't want someone else claiming credit for it. If
it's really new, I would love to name it after my wife or child since they
are who has had to bring me coffee while I sit at the bench working on silly
knots.


--
Bill DeWitt
God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks to us in our conscience, but
shouts in our pains: It is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world. -C. S. Lewis

"Bill DeWitt" wrote in message
...
What should I do if I have devised an unlisted (new?) strong, useful,
easy to tie knot?

Wow, if it's all that, let's see it! Take some pix, post a link. The folks
around here will let you know right quick what you've got.

It's a tall order, though. Among knot experts it's normally "been there,
done that." There are variations on a theme, though, and new ways
of tying old knots. Who knows. Maybe you found the Holy Grail.

As far as copyrights, I have no idea. But I do know that historically
knots are rarely eponymous, i.e., named after their creator, unless
you happened to be named Ashley or Walker. In more recent
history, new knots bear their creator's name, or at least the name
of the one who popularized it. This seems to be esp true among the
climbing community. Quite a few names are now associated with
knots, like Frost, Munter, Prusik, Bachman, Klemheist etc.

So let's see it, once somebody clears up the copyright issue for you.

Luke in Ca

"Luke451" wrote in message
...

It's a tall order, though. Among knot experts it's normally "been there,
done that." There are variations on a theme, though, and new ways
of tying old knots. Who knows. Maybe you found the Holy Grail.

Well, my first thought was that anything I do would have been done a
hundred times before, but after two days of searching, I have not found it.
It's a hybrid of a constricting and a cinching hitch. If you know of a web
page with more than the 8-10 hitches normally shown, I would be very
interested in seeing it.

So let's see it, once somebody clears up the copyright issue for you.

I don't really have a way of doing that yet. My camera is kaflooie and
only takes images at one distance... very far away. I'm working on some
renderings, but it will take a while considering everything else I have
running.

JRS: In article , dated Sun, 5 Feb
2006 08:45:51 remote, seen in news:rec.crafts.knots, Bill DeWitt
posted :
What should I do if I have devised an unlisted (new?) strong, useful,
easy to tie knot? I don't want anything for it, I really want to share it
far and wide... but I don't want someone else claiming credit for it.

If you can get it published in a commercial newspaper magazine or book,
that will fairly definitely establish your claim, whether or not you get
paid for the article.

If it is a suitable publication, then you're likely to get told, before
or after distribution, whether it is in fact new and/or useful.

If you want legal protection, though, first get a lawyer of some sort.

Be careful not to publish it openly before the well-considered
definitive publication.

Since you probably don't want arguments, be sure that you make a fair
and accurate claim, stating any rights you wish to retain - there are
still enough honest people in the world to make that worthwhile, but
they don't all understand the principles of copyright and suchlike.

Note that patenting and copyright are quite distinct and possibly
incompatible.

Remember that the Law is not uniform world-wide, and that IANAL
anywhere.

Of course, generally a knot should also be easy to untie.

--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. / ©
Web URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/ - FAQish topics, acronyms, & links.
Correct = 4-line sig. separator as above, a line precisely "-- " (SoRFC1036)
Do not Mail News to me. Before a reply, quote with "" or " " (SoRFC1036)

Bill DeWitt schreef:


Well, my first thought was that anything I do would have been done a
hundred times before, ...



hi Bill,

describing/publishing your knot here, seems a good way/method to
# test the origin/unique knot and application
# have it copyrighted in this way, as a knot artist
# claim/proove that you invented it before others do
# get recognition from other knot tyers
# have the satisfaction of inventing something new in a field that is
older than civilization itself (these are OJ's words)

knot invented here,

Ben


based on a search in this newsgroup

Tim Goetsch
in:
http://groups.google.nl/group/rec.cr...6b5000b081 57

Technically speaking, if you invented a decorative knot, you
automatically own a copyright on it. By the way, this is true of any
artistic endeavor. It's up to you to defend it legally and, if you
can't, you lose the copyright. Registering the copyright with the
federal government makes it easier to defend, but you still have to
pursue anyone who would steal your idea.
As for practical knots, you problem have to patent those.
Just thought you'd like to know.



is it Mark F Edwards or Brian A. Glennon?
in:
http://groups.google.nl/group/rec.cr...3788de35c4 37

If you can actually invent a new knot, I don't see why it couldn't be
patented. The splice invented by the Samson Rope Company for braided
rope (c. 1880s) was patented, but then the patent time limit expired.

But, first you have to invent a new knot, not a variation of a theme or

a tangle or snarl and try to call it a knot. A new application? Again,
make sure the application is actually unique, and hasn't been done
before, buried deep in some out-of-print knot book somewhere.



and in that same link, OJ mentions:

I know of only two sure rewards for inventing a new knot. One
is the respect and admiration of other knot tiers. The other is the
satisfaction of inventing something new in a field that is older than
civilization itself.

wrote in message
oups.com...


describing/publishing your knot here, seems a good way/method to
# test the origin/unique knot and application
# have it copyrighted in this way, as a knot artist
# claim/proove that you invented it before others do
# get recognition from other knot tyers
# have the satisfaction of inventing something new in a field that is
older than civilization itself (these are OJ's words)


Well, after talking about it with my family I have decided that I am
more interested in knowing if it has been done before than with being
legally able to claim it's invention.

Here is how I would describe it's structure, method of tying, use and
benefits. Hopefully it will be enough, but I do have some photos I could
post somewhere. They are hazy, distant and small, but I think you can see
it.

Name "Salamander Hitch"

General description:

This knot was developed to fill specific needs using general principles
learned on various web pages about the use, structure, terminology and
mechanics of knots, but most prominently on
http://www.allaboutknots.com/papers.html
Thanks go to those on rec.crafts.knots as well.

The need was for a hitch which,
1) could be made while a strong pull was on the standing end.
2) would not communicate changing stress to the secondary parts
while tying.
3) would not roll or twist the spar around which it was tied
4) would not slide or rotate on the spar
5) would cinch the standing end tighter when finished (very
important)
6) could be easily untied after lengthy, strong and varying stress.

There are two methods of tying the knot I finally used, the first one
being harder to tie, but necessary if you cannot reach the end of the spar.
It is also the method which best describes the method of invention, the
benefit of use and the principles involved.

Around an upright spar or mast, pass the running end clockwise around
the back, bringing it back under the standing end. This distributed the pull
across the spar due to the change of direction; next I wanted to lessen the
effect of change force on the running end, by binding the running end around
the standing end. Pull up and around the standing end, then down and under
again. In other words, wrap the running end 1.5 times clockwise around the
standing end. This should make the running end stable and free. It also
balances most of the twist imparted to the spar.

Now I needed to bind the first part of the knot while making a cinch
with mechanical advantage. Wrap around the mast again in a clockwise
direction about an inch below the first bend. This causes an opposition of
forces needed to create the cinch. If you pull on the running end now, you
will see that it pulls the wrapping towards the spar, tightening the
standing end by a small amount, with simple leverage. But you need it loose
for now.

To finish I wanted to strongly bind the running end and add a second
level of mechanical advantage. Continue clockwise, passing the running end
over the wrapping of the standing end, then under the wrapping, between the
two wrappings of the mast. This is why they are an inch apart, and why the
second part of the hitch should not be pulled tight yet. There should be a
triangle between the wrappings and the spar through which you can fit the
rope. This is perhaps the least elegant portion of the procedure. Since this
can be a strongly bound knot, similar in some ways to the constrictor knot,
you may want to put in a bight. As you will see in the dressing and use,
this is not strictly required due to a fortuitous deformation cycle of this
knot.

The second method of tying is done on a free rope, to be used over the
top of a post. Make an "S" curve in the end of the rope, pulling them out
into opposing bights. I do it by running the rope between my left ring
finger and the middle finger, picking it up with index finger and thumb of
the right hand. Left hand is palm down, right hand is palm up. The rope then
passes around the index finger, back to the left hand between the middle
finger and index, passing back out being held by the thumb. Lastly, pick up
the end between the middle finger and index finger of the right hand.
_______.
O_____O)
(O_____O__

This makes the "S" curve and positions your hands for the last movement.
You simply counter-rotate your hands. Left is now palm up, right is palm
down. You will see that you have made to opposing loops hooked on your index
fingers. These fold down to make the hitch. I use my left thumb, passing it
down through the left side, under the wrapping, and up through the right
loop.

Dressing and tightening this knot is important but mostly automatic. As I
mentioned, there is a fortunate deformation that both binds the knot even
tighter, and un-deforms easily to completely loosen the knot. The standing
end pulls the wrapping into a cone, which compresses and bends the rope into
a firm lock. Pulling back on the running end "clicks" the cone back into
shape, leaving the running end free to be untied while still holding the
standing end in case there is still a load.

Beyond the use I put this to (making a series of taut lines for a Wave Form
demonstration for school children) I find that this holds onto a second rope
very strongly, putting a slight bend in the main rope as it tightens. It
also works well as a lashing, pulling two poles very tightly together. In
this form it shows the "Salamander", the twisted wrap is the body and the
passes around the pole are the four legs. Sadly, the amphibian has lost its
tail.

Hopefully this description allows someone to tie this knot. I was quite
pleased to find it and was surprised to see that the references available to
me do not include it. If it turns out to be an undocumented knot (I can't
believe that it has never been tied before) I will find some place to post
images and descriptions.

"Bill DeWitt" wrote:

} What should I do if I have devised an unlisted (new?) strong, useful,
} easy to tie knot? I don't want anything for it, I really want to share it
} far and wide... but I don't want someone else claiming credit for it.

Well, two things: 1) it is pretty hard to find a 'new' knot [but it does
happen], and 2) copyright is the wrong thing. You can't copyright a knot.
If you really think it is something new, your best/only avenue would be to
try patenting it [I don't know if knots have ever been patented... seems
like they should be patentable]. You could then grant unrestricted license
to it as along as it was always referred to by whatever name you'd like or
something like that.

/Bernie\
--
Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers
Pearisburg, VA
-- Too many people, too few sheep --

Bill,

There is a chance that I'm misinterpreting your hitch, but there may be
a reason why you're not seeing it in literature or on the net. Upon
pulling hard on what I think is your hitch, even after dressing, it
seems to slither and slip, and I didn't even test it on that large of
an object, although the object I used was free to rotate on its axis.

If you do end up inventing a new hitch, bend, loop, etc., I wouldn't
worry about someone claiming it for their own, especially if you post
it on rec.crafts.knots which is automatically labeled with a date.
Knots aren't exactly pharmaceutical formulas that could generate real
money.

Anyway, please feel free to test your hitch for yourself by looking at
the bottom of one of my pages on knots, and see if you have similar
results:

http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/knotfaq.html

Cheers,
roo

roo mentioned in passing :

Bill,

There is a chance that I'm misinterpreting your hitch, but there may
be a reason why you're not seeing it in literature or on the net.
Upon pulling hard on what I think is your hitch, even after dressing,
it seems to slither and slip, and I didn't even test it on that large
of an object, although the object I used was free to rotate on its
axis.

Thanks for taking the time to test it, and I hope my directions were not
too poorly written. It was a little late for me, as it is now...

That said, I'm thinking you must have mis-tied it or something. I have
tested it with ~200 lbs using 1/4 nylon on shiny brass rail. True, the rail
was not free to rotate, but I have hand tested the knot on my favorite knot
tying stick (3/4" polished walnut dowel) without feeling any rotation
applied. (I just retested by placing a short section of 1 1/2" pvc over my
stick and making the knot around that. There did not seem to be any rotation
applied to the pipe no matter how hard I pulled)

The most common mistake I made while tying the knot was to pass the
rope -over- the standing end at the very beginning, making a knot that did
not bind at all. Perhaps I should make a more concise set of directions. I
have some poor photos I will post on alt.binaries.crafts.pictures in a few
minutes. If you confirm that you have the same knot, I would appreciate more
detail on the materials you were using when it failed.

Thanks again for testing it Roo. BTW, your site is very informative, I'm
glad you pointed it out to me.

--
Bill DeWitt
Power corrupts. Absolute power is kind of neat. - John Lehman,
Secretary of the Navy, 1981-1987

Well, two things: 1) it is pretty hard to find a 'new' knot

Not really; I've found around one thousand of such knots,
mostly by following the "What if ...?" intrigue. (For a couple
such knots got more by design, Google "Lehman8 Locktight"
and they should appear.) And, no, the earth hasn't shattered.
Still, there are more than a few good things among them.

Talk about copyrights or patents for knots are heading in the
direction of ridicule--Ashley, however, among some others,
has patented a knot. (It's not a great credit to the patent office.)
One can try to promote the knot by presenting it on the WWWeb
(to be echoed in various places, perhaps), and maybe in some
small publication targeting specific users (if apt). There is a
chance that confusion will misrepresent it, as it has done for
much knotting.

Finally, Bill, I'd like to see the knot (or perhaps a slower read of
your guidance will get me there--I do believe in language!), but
trying to ping you @comcast.org ("'.org' ??", I wondered!) got me
a nastygram.

--dl*
====