Need Help -- lost and found diamond -- defective ring?

Platinum-palladium alloys in Japan and China are usually 90%. Platinum
jewellery is rarely manufactured from 100 per cent platinum because
the pure metal is
Too soft to withstand the rigors of daily wear. (Sometimes Cobalt or
Iridium is used instead however these are usually mixed to create a
95% Platinum alloy)

To effectively shorten the ring they would have had to remove the
diamond and cut out a small section of the shank and fuse it back
together. Sometimes if the wrong solder is used (i.e. only fuse
Iridium Platinum with Iridium Platinum. Only fuse Cobalt Platinum
with Cobalt Platinum. Only fuse Ruthenium Platinum with Ruthenium
Platinum.) This can cause a weakness however it is unlikely they would
have made this mistake.

It is improbable with normal usage for a platinum ring to lose its
shape without being subjected to some extreme force. So is there any
possibility that the ring was accidentally pressed/pushed/squeezed by
a heavy force - if not have you thought about having the ring
independently analyzed to check its metal purity levels?
http://www.silverstall.com/silver_jewellery.html

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 08:28:34 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry silverstall
wrote:

To effectively shorten the ring they would have had to remove the
diamond and cut out a small section of the shank and fuse it back
together.

The diamond does not need to be removed for this in most cases. Platinum is a
fairly poor heat conductor, so it's not too hard to keep the top of the ring
with it's diamond, cool enough for the diamond's safety, while the back of the
ring, needing to be fused, is worked on. The temperatures of that operation
are, of course, higher than a diamond can withstand, but that does not mean the
whole ring is exposed to those temperatures. And fully modern shops may have
laser welders, which can work safely right next to a diamond, even with
platinum.


It is improbable with normal usage for a platinum ring to lose its
shape without being subjected to some extreme force.

When fully annealed, platinum, especially cast platinum, can actually be quite
surprisingly soft and easy to bend. There can be quite a lot of variation from
one platinum ring to another in this regard, depending on whether it's cast or
fabricated/stamped, etc, or the degree to which a casting may have been work
hardened in processing. And various alloys too can vary a lot. Some platinum
rings are indeed quite stiff and resistant to bending or denting, etc, but I've
seen more than a few that are quite soft and easily bent or dented. Platinum
has a well deserved reputation for durability, but this is based more on it's
toughness and resistance to being worn down by abrasion, than on it's stiffness
or hardness. Many jewelry manufacturers today design their wares based on
market desires more than on engineering concepts for the jewelry's durability,
and some of the resulting jewelry is, in a word, really rather fragile. ( base
that statement on having had to repair quite a large number of such pieces sent
to our shop...) The ring in this instance does not appear to be overly thin,
as are some, but if the ring was cast, using one of the softer alloys (cobalt
platinum, for example, or a platinum/palladium alloy), and is still fully
annealed, then it could be bent out of shape by forces that a normal and
reasonable person would not consider at all extreme. Certainly, platinum
rings are usually easier to bend out of shape than, say, nickel based white
golds...

Peter

Hi peter
I was looking at the image of the ring and unless I looked at the
wrong one what I failed to make clear in my post was that this
specific design looked reasonably thick and ought not to fall out of
shape because of normal wear and tear. Having said that my browser/
screen resolution is widenening images so to me the shank looks a lot
wider than it probably is.
You of course right in saying the stone need not be removed however I
was assuming they would not have used a laser welder. Personally I
find it too difficult with such high heat avoiding the stone and I
guess as a silversmith I am just used to having always to remove the
stones.
I take your point about the hardness - maybe its just the few platinum
rings I have worked with that were difficult to reshape.

Ted Frater wrote:
wrote:

Hi everyone,

I posted this in another forum and am reposting this in an effort to
get more advice.. Any advice would be VERY MUCH appreciated...

................................................ ................
I need some advice about the engagement ring that I gave to my
girlfriend.. We live in Japan, and also I bought the ring from a
fairly high-end shop here after months of research..

It has a quite a unique looking design which i hadnt seen before which
is why I decided on it, but after a two months of wearing it, the ring
bent a bit which in turn let the diamond fall out.. Needless to say,
it was quite stressful and traumatic (especially for my girlfriend)
but we found the diamond after some hours searching..

We took the ring back to the store, and they said that the ring was a
little bit too loose, and maybe my girlfriend might have held
something heavy or hit the ring on something which warped the metal...
(90% platinum), which let out the diamond..

So they adjusted in their shop to make the size smaller, however when
we got back the ring, the curvature of the design seemed a bit
squished which made the ring seem a bit different from the original
design..

But we overlooked this, and my girlfriend was real hesitant with
wearing the ring, so she wore it just maybe three times in two
weeks... After which, when re-examining the ring, we noticed that the
main body of the ring seemed to be bending a bit.. the diamond was
still secure, but because we the curvature of the ring was noticably
changed, we took the ring back...

We complained and had a heated discussion at the shop, in which they
basically said that 90% platinum+alloy is actually much softer than
18k gold and its not uncommon for this to happen.. What they said they
could do is ask their design studio to alter slightly the ring design,
which we agreed to....

So essentially my question(s) are this:

1)Does each time the store adjusts the ring, cause the ring
constitution/structure to become weaker?

2) Is it possible that the ring was defective to begin with, and if
so, how would we know?

3) One advice I got was to have the store make the necessary
adjustments and then have then guarantee that the stone will not fall
out for a period of 5 years.. Is this normal in jewelry stores to
offer such a "protection plan"?

I would like to ask them just to make a new ring, but I would only ask
this if I know that the ring structure is already damaged, or if I
knew that the ring is somehow defective..


I can send picture if needed...

any thoughts or advice would be much appreciated!



Youve come to the right place.
There are several very experienced jewellers who will be able to
advise you.
However as always the case since we cannot hold it in the hand so to
speak, well need some very good close up jpeg images to study.

We await these with interest.
We also would find helpful to know who was the ring maker, wether its
properly hall marked ie aasayed as platinum, and the name of the place
you bought it with their web address.
We need all thisinformation to assess your problem.

Thanks for the link to the piuctures you took.

There a good start to analysing why the ring in question seems to be
fragile?
Now we need a closeup of the top of the setting to see if the stone is
set in the traditional way,
ie with claws coming up out of a circular one piece base,
or
is held in place between the overlapping round wires .
Now if as I suspect, the ring is made from wire in a continious loop
with the stone sprung between the overlaps, then as a design, it looks good,
BUT as a setting for a stone its crap.
There wont be enough stiffness to hold the stone is a spring setting.
My initial conclusion if this is the case is that the ring is unfit
for use and should be returned for a full refund.
The3 right way to use this design is for the overlaps
to be fused together where they touch, so infact you are making an
albeit somewhat irregular base within which to make a proper setting.

Im not a jeweller who sets stones but I do know enough about metals
and their strengths to comment in the above way.
Lets have some more pics to help you further.

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 22:07:42 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry silverstall
wrote:

Hi peter
I was looking at the image of the ring and unless I looked at the
wrong one what I failed to make clear in my post was that this
specific design looked reasonably thick and ought not to fall out of
shape because of normal wear and tear. Having said that my browser/
screen resolution is widenening images so to me the shank looks a lot
wider than it probably is.
You of course right in saying the stone need not be removed however I
was assuming they would not have used a laser welder. Personally I
find it too difficult with such high heat avoiding the stone and I
guess as a silversmith I am just used to having always to remove the
stones.
I take your point about the hardness - maybe its just the few platinum
rings I have worked with that were difficult to reshape.


The thing with platinum that fools people sometimes, is just how easily bent and
dented it can sometimes be, when fully annealed. It's not so much just that
it's soft, it's that it's a totally "dead" metal, in that it doesn't spring back
at all when bent more than a little. Even sterling, fully annealed, springs
back more, though it takes less force to bend it. Now, couple that possibility
with the design of the setting, and what becomes possible is that any bending
out of round of the shank can pull those side arms out of position, altering the
tension on the stone, and thus loosening it. It's true that for most examples
of this ring, with most wearers, it's thick enough, or looks it, to withstand
easy bending. But people vary a lot, and some people just need heavier rings in
platinum than one might expect, even without any sort of abuse or abnormal
event. Clearly, the fact that the ring bent out of shape should not be
considered just normal and to be tolerated. But it's less clear just why this
happened, or what's to blame. Anyway one looks at it, though, the store should
find some sort of solution to protect the stone. My own suggestion would be to
fit an undergallery jump ring into the setting. This would be a wire ring
slightly smaller than the diamond diameter, on which the stone would actually
sit, clamped down onto it by the rest of the setting. That undergallery would
serve to reinforce the setting as a whole, and isolate it mechanically from any
deformation of the shank, so even if the shank gets bent, the stone stays
secure. Such an undergallery, while visible from the side, can still be made
fairly unobtrusive, and would make the whole setting much stronger. Since it's
channel set, fitting this in by traditional means is a little trickier than with
prongs, but is doable. For me, it would be easy, since I'd laser weld it in
place right under the stone without removing the stone at all. With a torch,
the stone would have to come out.

As to diamonds coming out for working on platinum, though, the fact that
platinum is usually welded with a sharp hot flame, working quite quickly, so the
heat is quite localized to the weld area, coupled with platinum's low thermal
conductivity (much much less than silver) means that even though the weld is
almost white hot, you could have diamonds only a few millimeters away, depending
on the thickness of the metal being welded, and they'd still be safe, IF you
used proper heat sinking between the stone and the weld. A plain cross lock
tweezer on the platinum at that point would be enough to block that heat
transfer sufficiently. Of course, the usual practice of having the diamond very
clean, and then coating it with a good coating of boric acid to protect it, is
still needed. When doing sizings, where one usually is working on the back of
the shank, with the stone in front, even careful heat sinking isn't needed. The
stone simply won't get all that hot that far away.

Silversmiths who're used to the thermal conductivity of silver are often totally
unprepared for just how little even gold, not to mention platinum, conducts heat
away from a joint. It really does mean different rules apply...

cheers

Peter

All the advice I've heard from this forum and from orchid has been of
tremendous help.. What I've ascertained is that the diamond fell out
because of both a design and materials problem..

I have confirmed with the store that it is in fact 90%platinum/
10%palladium which I have heard is tremendously soft?

Their solution which they sketched for me was to put two claws
underneath the ring to support the ring structure. Both Peter and
another poster in orchid suggested to put a wire ring or circular cup
underneath to support it.

My questions are,

1) Would you recommend the wire ring or is two claws undeneath
sufficient to support the diamond?

2) Given the new structure of either the wire ring or claws, is the
90%platinum/10%palladium reliable the design/ring?

3) I believe it is the store's responsibility that in my purchasing
the ring, the ring should be able to stand up to daily wear, and as it
has shown otherwise, I think its the store's job to fix the problem.
But, in your opinion, should the work that the store does to make the
proper design change or even remake the whole ring with a different
alloy (i.e. cobalt, irridium) be done for free? If not, how much
should be charged for such work?

4) A bit unrelated, but more connected with convenience, but, they
have taken one measurement of my girls ring finger already, is it
necessary to take one again before they start their adjustment work?

Much thanks again..


Cheers,


Jesse



On Jul 17, 2:23 pm, "Peter W.. Rowe,"
wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 22:07:42 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry silverstall



wrote:
Hi peter
I was looking at the image of the ring and unless I looked at the
wrong one what I failed to make clear in my post was that this
specific design looked reasonably thick and ought not to fall out of
shape because of normal wear and tear. Having said that my browser/
screen resolution is widenening images so to me the shank looks a lot
wider than it probably is.
You of course right in saying the stone need not be removed however I
was assuming they would not have used a laser welder. Personally I
find it too difficult with such high heat avoiding the stone and I
guess as a silversmith I am just used to having always to remove the
stones.
I take your point about the hardness - maybe its just the few platinum
rings I have worked with that were difficult to reshape.

The thing with platinum that fools people sometimes, is just how easily bent and
dented it can sometimes be, when fully annealed. It's not so much just that
it's soft, it's that it's a totally "dead" metal, in that it doesn't spring back
at all when bent more than a little. Even sterling, fully annealed, springs
back more, though it takes less force to bend it. Now, couple that possibility
with the design of the setting, and what becomes possible is that any bending
out of round of the shank can pull those side arms out of position, altering the
tension on the stone, and thus loosening it. It's true that for most examples
of this ring, with most wearers, it's thick enough, or looks it, to withstand
easy bending. But people vary a lot, and some people just need heavier rings in
platinum than one might expect, even without any sort of abuse or abnormal
event. Clearly, the fact that the ring bent out of shape should not be
considered just normal and to be tolerated. But it's less clear just why this
happened, or what's to blame. Anyway one looks at it, though, the store should
find some sort of solution to protect the stone. My own suggestion would be to
fit an undergallery jump ring into the setting. This would be a wire ring
slightly smaller than the diamond diameter, on which the stone would actually
sit, clamped down onto it by the rest of the setting. That undergallery would
serve to reinforce the setting as a whole, and isolate it mechanically from any
deformation of the shank, so even if the shank gets bent, the stone stays
secure. Such an undergallery, while visible from the side, can still be made
fairly unobtrusive, and would make the whole setting much stronger. Since it's
channel set, fitting this in by traditional means is a little trickier than with
prongs, but is doable. For me, it would be easy, since I'd laser weld it in
place right under the stone without removing the stone at all. With a torch,
the stone would have to come out.

As to diamonds coming out for working on platinum, though, the fact that
platinum is usually welded with a sharp hot flame, working quite quickly, so the
heat is quite localized to the weld area, coupled with platinum's low thermal
conductivity (much much less than silver) means that even though the weld is
almost white hot, you could have diamonds only a few millimeters away, depending
on the thickness of the metal being welded, and they'd still be safe, IF you
used proper heat sinking between the stone and the weld. A plain cross lock
tweezer on the platinum at that point would be enough to block that heat
transfer sufficiently. Of course, the usual practice of having the diamond very
clean, and then coating it with a good coating of boric acid to protect it, is
still needed. When doing sizings, where one usually is working on the back of
the shank, with the stone in front, even careful heat sinking isn't needed. The
stone simply won't get all that hot that far away.

Silversmiths who're used to the thermal conductivity of silver are often totally
unprepared for just how little even gold, not to mention platinum, conducts heat
away from a joint. It really does mean different rules apply...

cheers

Peter

On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 22:34:07 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry
wrote:

All the advice I've heard from this forum and from orchid has been of
tremendous help.. What I've ascertained is that the diamond fell out
because of both a design and materials problem..

I have confirmed with the store that it is in fact 90%platinum/
10%palladium which I have heard is tremendously soft?

not automatically, but it CAN be so, especially with a cast ring that's fully
annealed.


Their solution which they sketched for me was to put two claws
underneath the ring to support the ring structure. Both Peter and
another poster in orchid suggested to put a wire ring or circular cup
underneath to support it.

My questions are,

1) Would you recommend the wire ring or is two claws undeneath
sufficient to support the diamond?

Claws help support the diamond better than now, indeed. But they do nothing to
reinforce the actual structure of the setting, so if the ring gets bent out of
round again, and it might do so, then claws alone will not prevent the stone
becoming loose again. They might mean the setting would have to deform more
before the stone could fall out, but they don't prevent that deformation. the
undergallery I suggested, because it ties to two sides of the setting together,
would make it more difficult for deforming of the ring, to also deform the
setting itself. That's why I think it's a superior thought. But then, I don't
have the ring in hand, and the store does. They also better know their own
capabilities technically.


2) Given the new structure of either the wire ring or claws, is the
90%platinum/10%palladium reliable the design/ring?

If the setting is reinforced enough to keep the stone tight, then perhaps yes.
But even if the stone remains secure, if the ring is soft enough, and the shank
bendable enough, that the ring will be frequently needing to be straightened out
again, then this is just not a good idea.


3) I believe it is the store's responsibility that in my purchasing
the ring, the ring should be able to stand up to daily wear, and as it
has shown otherwise, I think its the store's job to fix the problem.
But, in your opinion, should the work that the store does to make the
proper design change or even remake the whole ring with a different
alloy (i.e. cobalt, irridium) be done for free? If not, how much
should be charged for such work?


Unfortunately, there's little that's enforcable here, in most cases, at least
here in the U.S. Common sense suggests it should be their responsibility to
make things right, but the lengths they may be willing to go to, to do that,
may vary. Everything is, however, fully negotiable. See what you can talk them
into doing at their own expense. My opinions is that you shouldn't have to pay
more unless you're getting something substantially more than you originally
thought you were getting, such as added diamonds, or otherwise added value, etc.
Modifying or fixing the ring so it can do what it was represented as being able
to do in the first place, doesn't seem to me like something you should have to
pay for. At some point, though, you may wish to weigh the option of having the
store exchange the mounting for another, sturdier one. If there is a difference
between the retail price you already paid, and the price of some newly chosen
mounting, then it seems reasonable you'd be asked to pay the difference...

4) A bit unrelated, but more connected with convenience, but, they
have taken one measurement of my girls ring finger already, is it
necessary to take one again before they start their adjustment work?

better safe than sorry, if it's convenient to do so. Some people's fingers
change in size, for example with the time of the month for women's cycles, or
with changes in weather/temperature/etc. So checking the size again can't hurt.
But it shouldn't really be necessary unless you wish to do so.

Peter

wrote:
All the advice I've heard from this forum and from orchid has been of
tremendous help.. What I've ascertained is that the diamond fell out
because of both a design and materials problem..

I have confirmed with the store that it is in fact 90%platinum/
10%palladium which I have heard is tremendously soft?

Their solution which they sketched for me was to put two claws
underneath the ring to support the ring structure. Both Peter and
another poster in orchid suggested to put a wire ring or circular cup
underneath to support it.

My questions are,

1) Would you recommend the wire ring or is two claws undeneath
sufficient to support the diamond?

2) Given the new structure of either the wire ring or claws, is the
90%platinum/10%palladium reliable the design/ring?

3) I believe it is the store's responsibility that in my purchasing
the ring, the ring should be able to stand up to daily wear, and as it
has shown otherwise, I think its the store's job to fix the problem.
But, in your opinion, should the work that the store does to make the
proper design change or even remake the whole ring with a different
alloy (i.e. cobalt, irridium) be done for free? If not, how much
should be charged for such work?

4) A bit unrelated, but more connected with convenience, but, they
have taken one measurement of my girls ring finger already, is it
necessary to take one again before they start their adjustment work?

Much thanks again..


Cheers,


Jesse



On Jul 17, 2:23 pm, "Peter W.. Rowe,"
wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 22:07:42 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry silverstall



wrote:

Hi peter
I was looking at the image of the ring and unless I looked at the
wrong one what I failed to make clear in my post was that this
specific design looked reasonably thick and ought not to fall out of
shape because of normal wear and tear. Having said that my browser/
screen resolution is widenening images so to me the shank looks a lot
wider than it probably is.
You of course right in saying the stone need not be removed however I
was assuming they would not have used a laser welder. Personally I
find it too difficult with such high heat avoiding the stone and I
guess as a silversmith I am just used to having always to remove the
stones.
I take your point about the hardness - maybe its just the few platinum
rings I have worked with that were difficult to reshape.

The thing with platinum that fools people sometimes, is just how easily bent and
dented it can sometimes be, when fully annealed. It's not so much just that
it's soft, it's that it's a totally "dead" metal, in that it doesn't spring back
at all when bent more than a little. Even sterling, fully annealed, springs
back more, though it takes less force to bend it. Now, couple that possibility
with the design of the setting, and what becomes possible is that any bending
out of round of the shank can pull those side arms out of position, altering the
tension on the stone, and thus loosening it. It's true that for most examples
of this ring, with most wearers, it's thick enough, or looks it, to withstand
easy bending. But people vary a lot, and some people just need heavier rings in
platinum than one might expect, even without any sort of abuse or abnormal
event. Clearly, the fact that the ring bent out of shape should not be
considered just normal and to be tolerated. But it's less clear just why this
happened, or what's to blame. Anyway one looks at it, though, the store should
find some sort of solution to protect the stone. My own suggestion would be to
fit an undergallery jump ring into the setting. This would be a wire ring
slightly smaller than the diamond diameter, on which the stone would actually
sit, clamped down onto it by the rest of the setting. That undergallery would
serve to reinforce the setting as a whole, and isolate it mechanically from any
deformation of the shank, so even if the shank gets bent, the stone stays
secure. Such an undergallery, while visible from the side, can still be made
fairly unobtrusive, and would make the whole setting much stronger. Since it's
channel set, fitting this in by traditional means is a little trickier than with
prongs, but is doable. For me, it would be easy, since I'd laser weld it in
place right under the stone without removing the stone at all. With a torch,
the stone would have to come out.

As to diamonds coming out for working on platinum, though, the fact that
platinum is usually welded with a sharp hot flame, working quite quickly, so the
heat is quite localized to the weld area, coupled with platinum's low thermal
conductivity (much much less than silver) means that even though the weld is
almost white hot, you could have diamonds only a few millimeters away, depending
on the thickness of the metal being welded, and they'd still be safe, IF you
used proper heat sinking between the stone and the weld. A plain cross lock
tweezer on the platinum at that point would be enough to block that heat
transfer sufficiently. Of course, the usual practice of having the diamond very
clean, and then coating it with a good coating of boric acid to protect it, is
still needed. When doing sizings, where one usually is working on the back of
the shank, with the stone in front, even careful heat sinking isn't needed. The
stone simply won't get all that hot that far away.

Silversmiths who're used to the thermal conductivity of silver are often totally
unprepared for just how little even gold, not to mention platinum, conducts heat
away from a joint. It really does mean different rules apply...

cheers

Peter




As with all problems of this nature, its a complex issue.

Ill list some that come to mind.
You write in English as if its your mother tongue.
this could mean your not a japanese national, but living in Japan
subject to Japanese laws.
Japanese laws regarding the sale of goods and their suitability for the
intended purpose will be different in Japan, to the UK, where im
working, to where Peter is working in the USA and Heinrich Burstall is
working in Germany.
Both Peter and Heinrich are very experienced working platinum jewellers
who are the most competent to answer the technical
questions about working platinum
whereas Im primarily a fine art metal smith that works on a bigger scale
but made many differnt ring designs in all metals so know what works and
what doesnt on a technical/design level.
You will need to find out how or where Japanese law protects the
purchaser of any product before you go any furtherwith this.
I have to know this law for the country im working in ., ie the UK.
This states quite clearly that
all new goods are subject to the Sale of Goods act, which requires the
seller to offer products that are
1. Fit for the purpose advertised or intended.
There are no exceptions.
So if I sold you this ring and you could show its was a faulty design
then id be obliged to give you a full refund, period.
so it boils down to 2 issues
Technical and legal.
The technical has been properly coverd by my colleagues.
the legal is the issue you will need to research in Japan..
When youve done this, I suggest you put your view of the situation in
writing,
Writing is always better at clarifying the mind both for you and the
seller.
Lay out the way you see this unfortunate scenario abd what you expect
from the shop.
Ifthey value their reputation they should offer you a full refund, or
another ring for the same price/value which is properly suited for its
life long purpose.
Feel free to quote me and my email address.
Say youve consulted widely on an international level and as Peters
emails are on this open forum the shop should have no qualms
looking at these posts.~Tho you should ask Peter if he minds or not
being quoted.
Engagement and wedding rings are an emotive subject, despite this ,one
needs to take off ones rose tinted spectacles and look at this major
expense in the cold light of dawn, but dont tell this to your fiance!!
Your the prince in shining armour who can solve everything!!
Hope you follow.
Regards anyway from the UK,
Ted Frater