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boric acid/alcohol flux
Ahoy there Halebobb! Helen here, long time no hear! I have followed your advice not to stir the said boric acid/alcohol flux but have found that I don't get enough flux action from the boric acid that's in solution in the alcohol and so have to either stir it or dip the piece into the boric acid gunk on the bottom of the jar in order to get sufficient protection. Still, following Peter's advice on this and Orchid, I'm going to make and use Prips flux for soldering and I'll probably just use the boric acid/alcohol mixture for annealing. Helen Hill http://www.hillsgems.co.uk http://www.helensgems.etsy.com |
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#2
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boric acid/alcohol flux
In rec.crafts.jewelry on or about Sat, 05 Jul 2008 10:29:47 -0700 text
possibly written by Helen Hill was seen, saying: Ahoy there Halebobb! Helen here, long time no hear! Ahoy yerself! I have followed your advice not to stir the said boric acid/alcohol flux but have found that I don't get enough flux action from the boric acid that's in solution in the alcohol and so have to either stir it or dip the piece into the boric acid gunk on the bottom of the jar in order to get sufficient protection. Still, following Peter's advice on this and Orchid, I'm going to make and use Prips flux for soldering and I'll probably just use the boric acid/alcohol mixture for annealing. Well, far be it for me to disagree with anyone on Usenet snicker but I've been doing the alcohol thing as mentioned for nigh on 30 years now and it's always worked for me. Maybe y'all are using "safety" alcohol over there in UK? Helen Hill http://www.hillsgems.co.uk http://www.helensgems.etsy.com Gettin' a lot more spam lately? -- Non curo. Si metrum non habet, non est poema |
#3
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boric acid/alcohol flux
On Jul 20, 7:31*am, uhclem@NO_SPAM_YOU_STEEEEEENKING_*******S- halebobb.com wrote: In rec.crafts.jewelry on or about Sat, 05 Jul 2008 10:29:47 -0700 text possibly written by Helen Hill was seen, saying: Ahoy there Halebobb! *Helen here, long time no hear! Ahoy yerself! I have followed your advice not to stir the said boric acid/alcohol flux but have found that I don't get enough flux action from the boric acid that's in solution in the alcohol and so have to either stir it or dip the piece into the boric acid gunk on the bottom of the jar in order to get sufficient protection. Still, following Peter's advice on this and Orchid, I'm going to make and use Prips flux for soldering and I'll probably just use the boric acid/alcohol mixture for annealing. Well, far be it for me to disagree with anyone on Usenet snicker but I've been doing the alcohol thing as mentioned for nigh on 30 years now and it's always worked for me. Maybe y'all are using "safety" alcohol over there in UK? Helen Hill http://www.hillsgems.co.uk http://www.helensgems.etsy.com Gettin' a lot more spam lately? -- Non curo. Si metrum non habet, non est poema Hey Doc, What's "safety alcohol"? I've got denatured alcohol just like you said (we call it methylated spirits). Over here, they add a purple dye to it but other than that, it's the same denatured alcohol as you use. You don't use sterling silver much though if I recall. You mainly use fine silver when you use silver don't you? I must remember to cook up my Prips! I bought the stuff and haven't made it yet. So many things to do - so many holes in my seive-like brain! ;-) Helen |
#4
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boric acid/alcohol flux
On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 09:39:56 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry helen
wrote: Hey Doc, What's "safety alcohol"? I've got denatured alcohol just like you said (we call it methylated spirits). Over here, they add a purple dye to it but other than that, it's the same denatured alcohol as you use. There may actually be differences. Denatured alcohol or methylated spirits are both initially ethanol. Same stuff as in alcoholic drinks. In order to make the stuff undrinkable, done usually to avoid the taxes imposed on alcoholic beverages, several types of agents can be added to make the stuff toxic. Methanol (wood alcohol) is one of the most common of these. But the amount added, or even if that's what's added, is not standardized by any means, either by country, or even within the U.S. In the U.S., Different brands may use different means or amounts of methanol to denature the stuff, and some brands may also have small amounts of water in the mix too. Both water and methanol are able to dissolve more boric acid than does ethanol itself. so a brand of denatured alcohol with more methanol, or a tad of water, might end up with a significantly different performance when mixed with boric acid as a fire coat. Even straight ethanol does dissolve a little boric acid, so then the question is whether there's enough boric acid deposited by a dip in the simple liquid, without stirring, for the intended use. Some of that, too, will be a matter of preference, and what you're doing. If you're only protecting gold from oxidation, the need is somewhat less stringent than if you're soldering new prongs on a diamond, which needs good protection from the air or it will be damaged. As I said at one point earlier on, I prefer to stir the boric/alcohol mix, simply because that way I KNOW I've got enough on it, no matter what I'm doing. Habit. In many cases, it may be more than needed, but that causes no harm. If Doc finds it adequate to just dip without stirring, it might be the same mix, or it might be a little different than mine, or it might just be that for what he's doing, it's working fine. Who knows. Everyone has slight differences in the way they do the same tasks. We'll go nuts if we try to figure out each and every minor detail when it offers no real advantage one way or the other. If it works, go with it. If not, modify the procedure... cheers Peter |
#5
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boric acid/alcohol flux
In rec.crafts.jewelry on or about Sun, 20 Jul 2008 09:53:17 -0700 text
possibly written by "Peter W.. Rowe," was seen, saying: On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 09:39:56 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry helen wrote: Hey Doc, What's "safety alcohol"? I've got denatured alcohol just like you said (we call it methylated spirits). Over here, they add a purple dye to it but other than that, it's the same denatured alcohol as you use. There may actually be differences. Wow. I didn't know all that. I was being facetious using the term "safety alcohol" because of something Helen said on Orchid. Just kinda ribbin' her... Denatured alcohol or methylated spirits are both initially ethanol. Same stuff as in alcoholic drinks. In order to make the stuff undrinkable, done usually to avoid the taxes imposed on alcoholic beverages, several types of agents can be added to make the stuff toxic. snip As I said at one point earlier on, I prefer to stir the boric/alcohol mix, simply because that way I KNOW I've got enough on it, no matter what I'm doing. The Useless Government (US gov't) has decided that boric acid is now an insecticide and has added a bunch of regulatory rules (taxes) to boric acid tripling the price. I buy mine now from a chemical/cleaning supply house to be used for cleaning. It comes in a larger granulated size rather than the usual dust. And it's MUCH less money (like $5.00 for 25lbs) But if you stir it it puts huge clots of glass-like stuff on your work. To answer Helen's question, yes, I mostly work in .999 or .985 silver, but I also work in sterling. Habit. In many cases, it may be more than needed, but that causes no harm. If Doc finds it adequate to just dip without stirring, it might be the same mix, or it might be a little different than mine, or it might just be that for what he's doing, it's working fine. Who knows. Everyone has slight differences in the way they do the same tasks. We'll go nuts if we try to figure out each and every minor detail when it offers no real advantage one way or the other. If it works, go with it. If not, modify the procedure... cheers Peter |
#6
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boric acid/alcohol flux
On Jul 20, 5:53*pm, "Peter W.. Rowe," wrote: On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 09:39:56 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry helen wrote: Hey Doc, What's "safety alcohol"? *I've got denatured alcohol just like you said (we call it methylated spirits). *Over here, they add a purple dye to it but other than that, it's the same denatured alcohol as you use. There may actually be differences. *Denatured alcohol or methylated spirits are both initially ethanol. *Same stuff as in alcoholic drinks. * In order to make the stuff undrinkable, *done usually to avoid the taxes imposed on alcoholic beverages, several types of agents can be added to make the stuff toxic. Methanol (wood alcohol) is one of the most common of these. * But the amount added, or even if that's what's added, is not standardized by any means, either by country, or even within the U.S. *In the U.S., *Different brands may use different means or amounts of methanol to denature the stuff, and some brands may also have small amounts of water in the mix too. * Both water and methanol are able to dissolve more boric acid than does ethanol itself. so a brand of denatured alcohol with more methanol, or a tad of water, might end up with a significantly different performance when mixed with boric acid as a fire coat. Even straight ethanol does dissolve a little boric acid, so then the question is whether there's enough boric acid deposited by a dip in the simple liquid, without stirring, for the intended use. * Some of that, too, will be a matter of preference, and what you're doing. *If you're only protecting gold from oxidation, the need is somewhat less stringent than if you're soldering new prongs on a diamond, which needs good protection from the air or it will be damaged. * As I said at one point earlier on, I prefer to stir the boric/alcohol mix, simply because that way I KNOW I've got enough on it, no matter what I'm doing. Habit. * In many cases, it may be more than needed, but that causes no harm. If Doc finds it adequate to just dip without stirring, it might be the same mix, or it might be a little different than mine, or it might just be that for what he's doing, it's working fine. *Who knows. * Everyone has slight differences in the way they do the same tasks. * We'll go nuts if we try to figure out each and every minor detail when it offers no real advantage one way or the other. *If it works, go with it. *If not, modify the procedure... cheers Peter Hi Peter, Denatured alcohol or methylated spirits are both initially ethanol. Same stuff as in alcoholic drinks. In order to make the stuff undrinkable, done usually to avoid the taxes imposed on alcoholic beverages, several types of agents can be added to make the stuff toxic. Indeed you're right about it being mainly ethanol (as used in alcoholic beverages) and it's usually methanol that's added, hence methylated spirits - plus purple dye, here in the UK. However, ethanol, although used in alcoholic beverages, is highly toxic already in its pure form. I guess Doc's preference for just dipping in the alcohol with boric acid that's dissolved in it (saturated solution), rather than dragging silver through the gunk on the bottom is probably due to the differences in the makeup of the denatured alcohol he uses and the stuff I can get hold of, ie as you say there's a difference in how much boric acid they will each hold in solution. I do know that a simple dip does not offer me enough protection against firestain and so I drag it through the gunk. As Doc points out, it does cause big lumps of borax glass on your work, but a quick stir around in my hot sodium bisulphate pickle gets rid of all traces of oxidation and borax glass lumps in a matter of seconds, ready for the next step so that's not really a problem (apart from it sometimes obscuring one's view and therefore not always being able to see when the solder flows around a seam for example). However, tomorrow really IS Prips mixing and trying day. Helen BSc (Hons) Chemistry http://www.hillsgems.co.uk http://www.helensgems.etsy.com |
#7
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boric acid/alcohol flux
On Jul 21, 7:06*am, wrote: In rec.crafts.jewelry on or about Sun, 20 Jul 2008 09:53:17 -0700 text possibly written by "Peter W.. Rowe," was seen, saying: On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 09:39:56 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry helen wrote: Hey Doc, What's "safety alcohol"? *I've got denatured alcohol just like you said (we call it methylated spirits). *Over here, they add a purple dye to it but other than that, it's the same denatured alcohol as you use. There may actually be differences. * Wow. I didn't know all that. I was being facetious using the term "safety alcohol" because of something Helen said on Orchid. Just kinda ribbin' her... Denatured alcohol or methylated spirits are both initially ethanol. *Same stuff as in alcoholic drinks. * In order to make the stuff undrinkable, *done usually to avoid the taxes imposed on alcoholic beverages, several types of agents can be added to make the stuff toxic. snip As I said at one point earlier on, I prefer to stir the boric/alcohol mix, simply because that way I KNOW I've got enough on it, no matter what I'm doing. The Useless Government (US gov't) has decided that boric acid is now an insecticide and has added a bunch of regulatory rules (taxes) to boric acid tripling the price. I buy mine now from a chemical/cleaning supply house to be used for cleaning. It comes in a larger granulated size rather than the usual dust. And it's MUCH less money (like $5.00 for 25lbs) But if you stir it it puts huge clots of glass-like stuff on your work. To answer Helen's question, yes, I mostly work in .999 or .985 silver, but I also work in sterling. Habit. * In many cases, it may be more than needed, but that causes no harm. If Doc finds it adequate to just dip without stirring, it might be the same mix, or it might be a little different than mine, or it might just be that for what he's doing, it's working fine. *Who knows. * Everyone has slight differences in the way they do the same tasks. * We'll go nuts if we try to figure out each and every minor detail when it offers no real advantage one way or the other. *If it works, go with it. *If not, modify the procedure... cheers Peter Hey Doc, I was being facetious using the term "safety alcohol" because of something Helen said on Orchid. Just kinda ribbin' her... I should have known you were being funny! But with our safety nannies policing everything we do, safety alcohol was always a possibility, although I thought it was something you lot used over the pond! ;-) I have just stated that pure ethanol is toxic all by itself, even before they add other agents to "make it toxic", but when I looked up the MSDS for ethanol, it didn't mention that it is a carcinogen, as we were told when I was at uni studying chemistry. I'll have to look it up in my chemical catalogue I have on a shelf somewhere. Helen UK |
#8
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boric acid/alcohol flux
On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 19:12:13 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry helen
wrote: I have just stated that pure ethanol is toxic all by itself, even before they add other agents to "make it toxic", but when I looked up the MSDS for ethanol, it didn't mention that it is a carcinogen, as we were told when I was at uni studying chemistry. I'll have to look it up in my chemical catalogue I have on a shelf somewhere. I suspect you've mixed up the memory with some other alcohol perhaps, or another of the various organic solvents. Benzine or Carbon Tetrachloride perhaps? Ethanol is, of course, toxic in it's own right. Chronic exposure causes a number of types of long term damage, especially to the liver, but also to other parts of the body, as well as physical addiction. In the short term, If blood alcohol levels rise beyond a certain level, accidents, sexual attraction to dubious partners, poor judgments, and a host of other risks are encountered. At higher levels yet, arrest and incarceration become risks, and at yet higher levels, death itself from alcohol poisoning can result. But I really doubt the bit about carcinogenicity. Even with the long history of alcoholic beverages, if ethanol were enough of a carcinogen to be worried about that effect, I suspect we'd have heard a lot more about that, just as we have with tobacco. It shouldn't matter if it's pure or highly dilute, other than the degree to which a given quantity has an effect. After all, If I drink three martinis, I've consumed a certain volume of pure ethanol, diluted with water, the mixers and now with my stomach acids and all. If, instead, I'd consumed the same volume of just the ethanol, my stomach would not have the mixers, but other than that, the situtaion would be about the same, the ethanol diluted by my stomach liquids. While the mixers in a drink, or the water diluting most alcoholic beverages might reduce the volume of alcohol consumed in that drink, and might reduce things like any caustic or irritating effects of the pure alcohol, the toxicity of the absorbed/digested chemical should not be affected by the dilution, only the dosage. I recall visiting a lemon farm in the south of Italy a few summers ago while on a vacation with my mom. There, they prepare a wonderous concoction called Limoncello. This lemon liquor is made by dumping a bunch of the fresh lemon peels from their wonderfully ripe and flavorful lemons into a bottle of pure ethanol purchased from chemical suppliers. Allowed to steep for a time (weeks or months, as I recall) to extract the lemon flavor, the liquid is then poured off, and a bunch of sugar is added. The result, served ice cold, is quite wonderful. Certainly dangerous if you drink too much, but no more than any other fine liquor, and this stuff is not made by fermenting grapes or some other fruit juice and then distilling it. It's ethanol bought in pure form from chemical suppliers. Doesn't get purer. As near as I can tell, the main danger is that consuming it can lead to confusion, making you think you're in Capri or Sorrento or someplace like that... (grin) Oh, and the other danger. As a tourist there, one has many many opportunities to part with your cash for the stuff, or for other usual souvenirs. I was a bit miffed, on returning to the U.S., to notice that my local state liquor store also carries Limoncello, in fact one of the brands often seen for sale on that trip, for a rather lower price than I paid over there... cheers Peter |
#9
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boric acid/alcohol flux
On Jul 22, 3:38*am, "Peter W.. Rowe,"
wrote: On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 19:12:13 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry helen wrote: I have just stated that pure ethanol is toxic all by itself, even before they add other agents to "make it toxic", but when I looked up the MSDS for ethanol, it didn't mention that it is a carcinogen, as we were told when I was at uni studying chemistry. *I'll have to look it up in my chemical catalogue I have on a shelf somewhere. I suspect you've mixed up the memory with some other alcohol perhaps, or another of the various organic solvents. *Benzine or Carbon Tetrachloride perhaps? Ethanol is, of course, toxic in it's own right. *Chronic exposure causes a number of types of long term damage, especially to the liver, but also to other parts of the body, as well as physical addiction. * In the short term, If blood alcohol levels rise beyond a certain level, *accidents, sexual attraction to dubious partners, poor judgments, and a host of other risks are encountered. *At higher levels yet, arrest and incarceration become risks, and at yet higher levels, death itself from alcohol poisoning can result. *But I really doubt the bit about carcinogenicity. *Even with the long history of alcoholic beverages, if ethanol were enough of a carcinogen to be worried about that effect, I suspect we'd have heard a lot more about that, just as we have with tobacco. It shouldn't matter if it's pure or highly dilute, other than the degree to which a given quantity has an effect. *After all, If I drink three martinis, I've consumed a certain volume of pure ethanol, diluted with water, the mixers and now with my stomach acids and all. *If, instead, I'd consumed the same volume of just the ethanol, my stomach would not have the mixers, but other than that, the situtaion would be about the same, the ethanol diluted by my stomach liquids. While the mixers in a drink, or the water diluting most alcoholic beverages might reduce the volume of alcohol consumed in that drink, and might reduce things like any caustic or irritating effects of the pure alcohol, the toxicity of the absorbed/digested chemical should not be affected by the dilution, only the dosage. I recall visiting a lemon farm in the south of Italy a few summers ago while on a vacation with my mom. *There, they prepare a wonderous concoction called Limoncello. *This lemon liquor is made by dumping a bunch of the fresh lemon peels from their wonderfully ripe and flavorful lemons into a bottle of pure ethanol purchased from chemical suppliers. * Allowed to steep for a time (weeks or months, as I recall) to extract the lemon flavor, the liquid is then poured off, and a bunch of sugar is added. *The result, served ice cold, is quite wonderful. *Certainly dangerous if you drink too much, *but no more than any other fine liquor, and this stuff is not made by fermenting grapes or some other fruit juice and then distilling it. *It's ethanol bought in pure form from chemical suppliers. *Doesn't get purer. * As near as I can tell, the main danger is that consuming it can lead to confusion, making you think you're in Capri or Sorrento or someplace like that... (grin) * Oh, and the other danger. *As a tourist there, one has many many opportunities to part with your cash for the stuff, or for other usual souvenirs. *I was a bit miffed, on returning to the U.S., to notice that my local state liquor store also carries Limoncello, in fact one of the brands often seen for sale on that trip, for a rather lower price than I paid over there... * cheers Peter Hi Peter, Yes, indeed I have probably mixed it up with something else. I had a feeling when I posted that I was more than likely wrong. I often am, as you can probably tell by now. Probably too much ethyl alcohol has addled my brain!!! ;-) A relative brought some Limoncello back from Italy a couple of years ago, and yes it's delightful! I'd rather have gone to Italy though - it's one place that I long to travel to. Confusingly, my Lancaster chemical catalogue, which lists pretty much most chemicals one can buy for the lab, doesn't even contain ethanol. It's not there under ethanol or ethyl alcohol - most strange! But yes, I think I've got mixed up with something else. Helen UK |
#10
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boric acid/alcohol flux
In rec.crafts.jewelry on or about Mon, 21 Jul 2008 19:38:50 -0700 text
possibly written by "Peter W.. Rowe," was seen, saying: On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 19:12:13 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry helen wrote: I have just stated that pure ethanol is toxic all by itself, even before they add other agents to "make it toxic", but when I looked up the MSDS for ethanol, it didn't mention that it is a carcinogen, as we were told when I was at uni studying chemistry. I'll have to look it up in my chemical catalogue I have on a shelf somewhere. I suspect you've mixed up the memory with some other alcohol perhaps, or another of the various organic solvents. Benzine or Carbon Tetrachloride perhaps? Ethanol is, of course, toxic in it's own right. Chronic exposure causes a number of types of long term damage, especially to the liver, but also to other parts of the body, as well as physical addiction. Reminds me of a former friend. He'd still be a friend and more correctly should be called a dead friend, since, whilst using alcohol in Cheng Mai mistook a window on the third floor for a door, or so the story went. Anyway, I used to actually drink ethanol as pure as the booze store sold. I'd keep it in an Absolute bottle in my freezer. This dead friend, when alive, came to visit one day and when I went to work, I told him to feel free in eat or drink anything he could find. Besides finding and eating all three of my boxes of frozen bait (squid) he also drank the entire 5th of grain alcohol, straight. He lived, but only for a few years afterwards. objewelry He didn't like jewelry. Or cats. (My cats liked to sleep in his lap nonetheless, as cats are wont to on laps owned by those who barely tolerate cats.) |
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