Very OT - Fahrenheit 9/11

Oh, and for heaven's sakes... $15,000 a YEAR? Do you know what the
poverty level is?

It sounds like you didn't like that coworker and have based all your
assumptions about people receiving aid on her.

-Kalera
http://www.beadwife.com
http://www.snipurl.com/kebay

Ew. For one thing, I'm not exactly a liberal. I'd be a Libertarian if it
weren't for the fact that most Libertarians are insufferable boors.

You are obviously highly predjudiced. You've seen a few examples of poor
people who aren't making any efforts to improve their lives, and you
assume that all poor people are like that... yet you yourself are
allegedly poor (though if you're paying all those taxes, you must be
doing OK).

You also don't seem to understand that the "slobbering kids" whose
outcomes you don't care to receive will be the ones wiping your
incontinent ass in a state-subsidized institution when you're old, since
you have no kids to take care of you and you're clearly not making any
attempt to secure your own future. That's why a society takes care of
its own; those kids become adults, and they can either be an asset or a
liability. Smart people try to think of ways to make them an asset,
stupid people think "it's not my problem, why should I care?"

It's EVERYONE'S problem.

I'm a capitalist through and through, not a socialist, BTW.

-Kalera
http://www.beadwife.com
http://www.snipurl.com/kebay


mjoann wrote:
Kalera Stratton wrote:

No, just a very young, very self-absorbed woman. She'll probably grow
out of it. Sorry to be ageist, but I'm being optimistic, here; if
it's not youth and ignorance, there's no hope at all.


And that is exactly how I feel about raving, loony liberals who think
everyone else needs to pay for their piles of slobbering kids. I think
"good grief, when are they going to get over crazy visions of Utopia and
face the world for what it is?" Its not about my age at all; Sooz was
actually right in labeling me like an old lady, I say it all the time. I
have old-fashioned values. And by golly, likes our crazy pioneer
forefathers, I expect to go out and work for the things I want. Its
about being willing to go out and work for a living rather than whining
for someone to do it for you. It is not impossible; people come here
from other countries every day to work. No its not pretty, but that's
what you have to do if you want to survive. There isn't a need to coddle
everyone. I've seen people laze around at home on welfare. I watched my
mom's cousin laze around for 20 years while she raised her kids and
mooched a free education. I've got two relatives who sat at home in
poverty waiting for someone to award them with disability checks. Two
men with "bad backs" who oddly enough managed to engage in all kinds of
outdoors activities even though they "couldn't" work.
Its not about ignorance either. I worked in a store across from section
8 housing for a year. Every day, women would bring in their multiple
children and use their foodstamp cards to buy junk food. One regular
would talk to us about her life... She got aid through her low income,
but her boyfriend secretly lived with them and helped with the bills.
When you see the people from the welfare housing come in daily, driving
newer cars, wearing nice clothes and buying Mountain Dew, its not hard
to tell that what's going on. Anyone who has ever worked in a grocery
store can tell you that most of the time those precious food stamps are
buying pop and snacks. I worked in a grocery store all through high
school, and shook my head countless times as I rang up piles of junk
food and scanned the foodstamp card then accepted the cash for the beer
and cigarettes that weren't covered. If these people can squander their
aid on crap, then buy cigarettes, they aren't too desperate are they?
I've seen how things work. My parents work for a living, and I know from
experience it is possible. And yes, I will say it... there are plenty of
jobs available, ways to support oneself. I don't even want to hear the
BS about low minimum wages. High school kids at the local grocery store
make $7.00 an hour. My little sister made over $7.00 in fast-food at her
first job. I went half way across the country to visit family a week
ago, and pretty much every establishment I went into had a hiring sign
up. Stores like Meijer and Wal-Mart are constantly hiring. Meijer has
union wages; eight years ago, I started at $6.00 and I'm sure its more
now. Better stores, like Home Depot start people at least at $10.00 an
hour. It all comes down to if you want to get off your butt and do it.
If you want to throw in the excuse of not being able to afford day care,
there are ways around that. My grandma took in washing. Women today have
more home opportunities. I have found many ways to earn spare change.
Selling on e-Bay for commission, garage sale finds turned into e-Bay
profit, selling jewelry, selling stuff around my house that I don't
need, etc. all done from home. Also, many daycares will accept
employees' kids for little to nothing. Voila, job and childcare problem
solved. One summer I went thrift shopping on my days off and brought
home more through e-Bay sales than my paycheck. I also seriously doubt
there are that many women in the world who are completely separated from
all friends and family. When I wasn't in school and my mom couldn't
afford a full week of full day daycare, I was juggled around to everyone
she could think of. Or, for struggling married women, how about getting
a part-time job during a different shift from the husband? My goodness
if the guy's working every day of the week with overtime and still can't
buy food, you've got some labor law issues there! I have seen first
hand, single women who went out and took care of their children, my mom
being one of them. She had no education and tried to reject child
support until the state mandated that she take the bare minimum (that
doesn't go far), but every day she took me to day care and went to work
as a cashier. For a while, she did bookkeeping on weekends. Sometimes,
she made extra income doing calligraphy. So, the BS about not having an
education doesn't work either. Without having a degree, I got a $16,000
a year supervisory job at 21 based on my retail experience in my high
school job. And college? With a Pell grant, state grants, and subsidized
loans (all based on low income) state school tuition is nearly free. You
can get aid even at half time (6 hours.) I looked into it for this
summer quarter- At half time, the grants would have fallen about $500
short (that could be covered by a loan) At full time, my tuition was
completely covered, and the grants were enough to cover books. And,
loans can cover any school related expense. Enough to make up for money
spent on a baby-sitter during class time if you don't mind taking out a
little extra. Even if you are seriously lacking in skills, if you start
somewhere in high school and work a while, you can earn a living wage
with your experience after graduation. I've also seen women with the
exact same opportunities, who would not work at all. I've seen whining
about poor starting wages, but you know what? You stay a while and you
get a raise or a promotion. I have absolutely no compassion for someone
who isn't willing to go out and make their own way in life.
Think about immigrants... there are Mexicans who are desperate to come
in and work for a living. They are willing to pack into a truck and
share a dinky apartment for the chance to work. Americans don't even
have to go to such desperate measures, yet we still have people who sit
at home because they can't find a job that pays enough to outweigh
welfare. I think some Cubans floating on rafts might be delighted to
have a job here.
There's the issue of choices, too. People who can't afford their kids
shouldn't have more. One accident maybe, but you can't possibly have a
whole housefull of them! And yes, the stereotypical welfare recipient
with a bunch of kids, DOES exist. Maybe girls should be a little
choosier about who they sleep with. Hmm... make sure the guy's not a
scum bucket before you get in the situation to possibly became pregnant
in the first place. Maybe kids shouldn't be in a hurry to get married
and start families that will overwhelm their budgets.
There are so many ways to avoid becoming a poor single parent in the
first place. Maybe if people would take charge of the lives in the first
place and consider their decisions carefully, they wouldn't get into the
position to start with. And if they do end up in that position.. deal
with it. What do you think people did pre-welfare?
Nope, age will not convince me that I should feel sorry for lazy people.
There have been all kinds of pansy excuses spouted out here, mostly
absurd. The welfare system is crazy. It gives people an excuse not to
try. Its a slap in the face of those who do that work harder to get by
on the same amount or less. As for the excuse that its difficult to
get... well if its that bad, with so much horrific paperwork, why not
help yourself and get a job instead of hanging out in a government
office trying to get help? Why the heck should we all be responsible for
other people's kids and poor decisions? I'm just wondering when the
liberals here are going to get a grip, stop crying about hungry kids,
and realize that it is perfectly possible to be self sufficient.

Oh, and for heaven's sakes... $15,000 a YEAR? Do you know what the
poverty level is?

It sounds like you didn't like that coworker and have based all your
assumptions about people receiving aid on her.

I'll say! Good god almighty! $15,000 a year is a sneeze. Your coworker was
making a lot more somehow, or *charging* a ton more. You can't know what
people's money is without being their accountant. You can't go by what they
say -- and you CERTAINLY can't go by what the office gossip is!

Are you living in the real world at all?
~~
Sooz

I was on WIC and we had food stamps for a while when I was pregnant with
my son... not because I was a simle mother, but because my minimum-wage
full-time job at a glass factory wasn't enough to pay our bills, and my
worthless husband wouldn't work. After he thankfully left me with our
two-year-old daughter and six-month-old son, I was able to go off aid
(one less mouth to feed), got a better job and bought my house. Now I'm
self-employed, married to a self-employed man, we both work like dogs,
and we're finally able to pay all our bills (knock on wood). We have
never been on state aid. The kids were on the state health plan until
last year when we could finally afford insurance.

How's that for bootstraps? It's a far cray from the empty belly I had
too often when I was a kid.

But I've said it before and I'll say it again; I was lucky. I had good
health, a good emotional support system, and I didn't face any terrible
adversity. It's the people who are UNlucky that I hope to help with my
taxes. Including people like Mjoann, who is on a short street to total
state dependency herself, if what she says is true.

-Kalera
http://www.beadwife.com
http://www.snipurl.com/kebay


Kathy N-V wrote:
On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 4:40:38 -0400, mjoann wrote
(in message ):


I expect to go out and work for the things I want. Its
about being willing to go out and work for a living rather than whining
for someone to do it for you. It is not impossible; people come here
from other countries every day to work. No its not pretty, but that's
what you have to do if you want to survive. There isn't a need to coddle
everyone.

- long posting about pullong onesself up by the bootstraps snipped -

Well yeah, sort of. If anyone knows about working for a living, and
not accepting help, it's me. I started working at age eleven, and
worked continousouly from that time until age 39, when my heart gave
out. During most of that period, I worked far more than full time.
I've never accepted any financial assistance from the government,
although I did earn several college scholarships.

When my father left our family when I was fifteen, I went from kid to
primary financial supporter for the four of us (three kids plus a
mom). My mother had no real work experience in the US and very
limited English skills. She worked full time (plus side jobs), went
to school at night, and refused any and all offers of help. We were
eligible for many programs, but Mom was/is far too proud to accept
any kind of state/federal/private aid.

We went hungry much of the time, and spent years without electricity,
phone service or heat, because we couldn't afford it. (Not easy in
New England, especially in winter) The one time we went out to
dinner during my teens remains memorable as an amazing window into
another world.

The story ends pretty happily. My mother, through sheer hard work
and sacrifice, has created a very nice life for herself. She's about
to retire from her job as billing director at a big old hospital,
owns her own lovely home, and is very comfortable. She's well
educated now, and no one would ever guess that she had ever been dirt
poor. My brother, sister and I all are well educated, and until I
got sick, all three of us were working in responsible, professional
jobs. We all own our own homes and really do live the American
Dream. (Nowadays, only 2/3 of the group works. I collect disability
insurance, for which I paid premiums while I was working)

So yes, I know exactly what you're talking about. I've certainly
walked the walk. I have really mixed feelings about the whole
experience, though. Although I'm proud we were able to accomplish
all the things we did, I certainly wonder if it was worth it to have
never accepted any help. I look at my daughter, whose life is so
different than mine was at her age, and am glad that she's busy being
a kid, and not worrying about paying some bill or another. I think
of those endless meals of macaroni (cooked for a long time, so it
would swell and fill you up), and think it would have been a heck of
a lot easier if we had asked for even a little help. I remember about
sleeping with a million blankets and a hat, or freezing while I
showered in ice cold water in the wintertime, and feel sad that my
Mom was too proud to have accepted even some heating oil.

Full disclosu I don't want to sound like some pathetic soul, and
imply for an instant that I didn't have a lot of fun during my teens
as well. I did. I had/have a great group of friends, spent a lot of
time with a youth group at my church, and have had experiences other
people only dream about. Things were grim a lot of the time, but we
also had lots of fun and I generally remember my teens as a positive
time.

Some people abuse the system. We call those people "losers." But
the vast majority of people taking aid don't abuse the system at all,
and use it as the temporary hand up for which it was intended. I
bear them no malice, and I'm glad to see people get this chance - I
don't want to share my experience, even though it did turn out all
right in the long run. We live in a civilized society, and if we can
make life a little easier for those people who need it, that's a
wonderful thing.

Mostly, I don't have hard feelings for people who accept aid because
of what we went through. Life doesn't have to be so darned hard, and
I see the terrible price that we all paid for it. All three of us
kids have serious health issues that could have been prevented if
we'd had the money to see a doctor as kids. We all have major league
emotional scars from years of deprivation and terror that if anyone
found out how bad things were, we'd have been shipped off to foster
homes. Even my mom says she wishes she'd asked for help - it hurts
her to know that we could have lived with a lot less pain than we
did. Hardship doesn't always build character, sometimes it just
leaves scars.

You can let your circumstances leave you bitter, or you can use the
rough times in life to smooth off the edges. I've chosen the latter
- it's made me the woman I am today, and I like her. Mjoann, you are
an intelligent woman. You have more tools than most people to make
your own bright future (including wealth, if that's what you desire).
But it's up to you alone to do that, and if you're looking around at
other people and worrying about what they have and you don't, you're
not going to ever be able to get to where you want to be. Be glad
you aren't dependent on others, and that you are able to work and
dream and see. Life can be wonderful, you just have to make it so.

Kathy N-V

Right on!

-Kalera
http://www.beadwife.com
http://www.snipurl.com/kebay


KDK wrote:
I used to jump to answer the phone every time it rang. Of course that was
before the flood of telemarketing calls, so I knew there was a reasonable
chance it was someone I wanted to talk to.

But not true anymore. I love caller ID. And then sometimes I don't even
bother looking at that - I just let it ring. If it's important they'll
leave a message.

Kathy K

Hee hee hee!

-Kalera
http://www.beadwife.com
http://www.snipurl.com/kebay


Dr. Sooz wrote:
Oh my god -- this is exactly how I feel. Exactly. Kalera, get out!

Isn't it just **odd**, really, if you think about it?

The idea that we are conditioned to believe that if this bell rings in our
houses, we have to run and grab the thing. We have to be available.

It's just a HABIT. People who spent most of their lives without answering
machines have the hardest time breaking this habit (think Your Parents -- mine
are in their 70s).

Try not answering your phone, no matter what, until you Actually KNOW Who It
Is. Do this for 2 weeks. You will break your dependence on the accursed
phone....and you will save hours of precious time that you will never get back!

I've even had people who don't live here answer my phone on the first ring
while visiting me. I NEVER answer the phone -- not unless I'm waiting for a
call from our doctor, or Mercury's. That is the ONLY exception.
~~
Sooz

We're completely dependent on the government, but in a totally different way (in the
military), and we're having a hard time getting out of it. We know so many military
families that have to get food stamps and such, and they're completely separated from
their families, while their spouses are deployed overseas. Oh heck, I shouldn't have
stepped into this convo...sigh.
--
Jalynne - Keeper of the Quilt for ME club list
Queen Gypsy (snail mail available upon request)
see what i've been up to at www.100megsfree4.com/jalynne

"Kalera Stratton" wrote in message
...
I was on WIC and we had food stamps for a while when I was pregnant with
my son... not because I was a simle mother, but because my minimum-wage
full-time job at a glass factory wasn't enough to pay our bills, and my
worthless husband wouldn't work. After he thankfully left me with our
two-year-old daughter and six-month-old son, I was able to go off aid
(one less mouth to feed), got a better job and bought my house. Now I'm
self-employed, married to a self-employed man, we both work like dogs,
and we're finally able to pay all our bills (knock on wood). We have
never been on state aid. The kids were on the state health plan until
last year when we could finally afford insurance.

How's that for bootstraps? It's a far cray from the empty belly I had
too often when I was a kid.

But I've said it before and I'll say it again; I was lucky. I had good
health, a good emotional support system, and I didn't face any terrible
adversity. It's the people who are UNlucky that I hope to help with my
taxes. Including people like Mjoann, who is on a short street to total
state dependency herself, if what she says is true.

-Kalera
http://www.beadwife.com
http://www.snipurl.com/kebay


Kathy N-V wrote:
On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 4:40:38 -0400, mjoann wrote
(in message ):


I expect to go out and work for the things I want. Its
about being willing to go out and work for a living rather than whining
for someone to do it for you. It is not impossible; people come here
from other countries every day to work. No its not pretty, but that's
what you have to do if you want to survive. There isn't a need to coddle
everyone.

- long posting about pullong onesself up by the bootstraps snipped -

Well yeah, sort of. If anyone knows about working for a living, and
not accepting help, it's me. I started working at age eleven, and
worked continousouly from that time until age 39, when my heart gave
out. During most of that period, I worked far more than full time.
I've never accepted any financial assistance from the government,
although I did earn several college scholarships.

When my father left our family when I was fifteen, I went from kid to
primary financial supporter for the four of us (three kids plus a
mom). My mother had no real work experience in the US and very
limited English skills. She worked full time (plus side jobs), went
to school at night, and refused any and all offers of help. We were
eligible for many programs, but Mom was/is far too proud to accept
any kind of state/federal/private aid.

We went hungry much of the time, and spent years without electricity,
phone service or heat, because we couldn't afford it. (Not easy in
New England, especially in winter) The one time we went out to
dinner during my teens remains memorable as an amazing window into
another world.

The story ends pretty happily. My mother, through sheer hard work
and sacrifice, has created a very nice life for herself. She's about
to retire from her job as billing director at a big old hospital,
owns her own lovely home, and is very comfortable. She's well
educated now, and no one would ever guess that she had ever been dirt
poor. My brother, sister and I all are well educated, and until I
got sick, all three of us were working in responsible, professional
jobs. We all own our own homes and really do live the American
Dream. (Nowadays, only 2/3 of the group works. I collect disability
insurance, for which I paid premiums while I was working)

So yes, I know exactly what you're talking about. I've certainly
walked the walk. I have really mixed feelings about the whole
experience, though. Although I'm proud we were able to accomplish
all the things we did, I certainly wonder if it was worth it to have
never accepted any help. I look at my daughter, whose life is so
different than mine was at her age, and am glad that she's busy being
a kid, and not worrying about paying some bill or another. I think
of those endless meals of macaroni (cooked for a long time, so it
would swell and fill you up), and think it would have been a heck of
a lot easier if we had asked for even a little help. I remember about
sleeping with a million blankets and a hat, or freezing while I
showered in ice cold water in the wintertime, and feel sad that my
Mom was too proud to have accepted even some heating oil.

Full disclosu I don't want to sound like some pathetic soul, and
imply for an instant that I didn't have a lot of fun during my teens
as well. I did. I had/have a great group of friends, spent a lot of
time with a youth group at my church, and have had experiences other
people only dream about. Things were grim a lot of the time, but we
also had lots of fun and I generally remember my teens as a positive
time.

Some people abuse the system. We call those people "losers." But
the vast majority of people taking aid don't abuse the system at all,
and use it as the temporary hand up for which it was intended. I
bear them no malice, and I'm glad to see people get this chance - I
don't want to share my experience, even though it did turn out all
right in the long run. We live in a civilized society, and if we can
make life a little easier for those people who need it, that's a
wonderful thing.

Mostly, I don't have hard feelings for people who accept aid because
of what we went through. Life doesn't have to be so darned hard, and
I see the terrible price that we all paid for it. All three of us
kids have serious health issues that could have been prevented if
we'd had the money to see a doctor as kids. We all have major league
emotional scars from years of deprivation and terror that if anyone
found out how bad things were, we'd have been shipped off to foster
homes. Even my mom says she wishes she'd asked for help - it hurts
her to know that we could have lived with a lot less pain than we
did. Hardship doesn't always build character, sometimes it just
leaves scars.

You can let your circumstances leave you bitter, or you can use the
rough times in life to smooth off the edges. I've chosen the latter
- it's made me the woman I am today, and I like her. Mjoann, you are
an intelligent woman. You have more tools than most people to make
your own bright future (including wealth, if that's what you desire).
But it's up to you alone to do that, and if you're looking around at
other people and worrying about what they have and you don't, you're
not going to ever be able to get to where you want to be. Be glad
you aren't dependent on others, and that you are able to work and
dream and see. Life can be wonderful, you just have to make it so.

Kathy N-V

Most friends/family now send me email to tell me get off line and call
them Folks have even sent email and waited for a response and then
fuss at me for not answering...and I ask them, "Why didn't you call?"
They guessed I'd be online and they wouldn't be able to get through. Heh.

When we first got an answering machine, hubby and I did a little rap
thing for our outgoing message. It was hilarious when we were screening
calls, we'd hear folks kind of sputter, then hang up, and call back a
few minutes later to leave a rap message

Cheers,
Carla

Dr. Sooz wrote:
Isn't it just **odd**, really, if you think about it?

The idea that we are conditioned to believe that if this bell rings in our
houses, we have to run and grab the thing. We have to be available.

It's just a HABIT. People who spent most of their lives without answering
machines have the hardest time breaking this habit (think Your Parents -- mine
are in their 70s).

Try not answering your phone, no matter what, until you Actually KNOW Who It
Is. Do this for 2 weeks. You will break your dependence on the accursed
phone....and you will save hours of precious time that you will never get back!

I've even had people who don't live here answer my phone on the first ring
while visiting me. I NEVER answer the phone -- not unless I'm waiting for a
call from our doctor, or Mercury's. That is the ONLY exception.
~~
Sooz

Yeah, I saw that and almost screamed. I know different areas have
different median incomes, but sheesh! I think of anyone in Chicago
trying to raise a kid on that, and it's laughable.

Cheers,
Carla

Kalera Stratton wrote:

Oh, and for heaven's sakes... $15,000 a YEAR? Do you know what the
poverty level is?

It sounds like you didn't like that coworker and have based all your
assumptions about people receiving aid on her.

-Kalera
http://www.beadwife.com
http://www.snipurl.com/kebay