Foulmouthed Craftweb rant

There is another message board, Craftweb, where I had a recent dispute
with the moderator. The moderator posted some accusations and then
didn't allow me to respond. If anyone has been in that position, you
know how frustrating that is. In fact, he reffered to this as, "a foul
mouthed rant". I really am sorry to have to engage in such a silly
maneuver, but its the only way I could respond to the guy. I'm sure
this is futile, and admittedly childish, but it gives me a bit of
satisfaction to know my response is on the record somewhere.

"Your drop shipping dichroic doesn't amount to a "favor" to anyone.
Given the CBS pricing strategy it allows YOU to buy wholesale at a
better price. Which is typical from you. I simply informed CBS I would
be buying 25 sheets. Its not a big deal, I need the writeoff.

Lets face it, this is all about you, your little power trip. The fact
is not that I like to argue, but that you're uncomfortable with
disagreement. Hell you managed to ban or drive off all the Republicans
on the board. Yes, I do like Bob Stephan. I always have. I don't like
his politics, no. But He's a cool guy. Original ideas, great
intelligence and technical knowledge, and just look at his site to see
that he has a sense of humor. What you really want to have here is not
a discussion group, but a gentlemans club for people who'll share
similar opinions and voice them at a safe distance. To me, that's
chicken****.

About my work, when you came to my studio you were LITERALLY hopping
up and down on one foot and saying, "no one's doing anything like
this", and asking me to sell you stuff for your gallery. When I
balked, you said you would produce it yourself. When you got back, you
reported on Craftweb that you had had an epiphany on the beach.
Remember that Pete? I know Mary Beth does. I bit my tongue. But that
was a bitter pill, I can tell you. I can only imagine how many other
people's work you've ripped off. For anyone who has actually talked
with you privately, they know you are really about making the cash,
art be screwed. And of course as Shute has pointed out, the private
Pete is considerably less scrupulous than the public Pete. I wish I
had recorded that whole story about how you invited other artists to
your studio and told them the wrong materials to use.

In fact, your whole deal with being a moderator in the first place was
ripped off from Shute, and really, he has an arguable position in
being ****ed off. I agree with Bob. I think your are completely
unsuited to this position. You use it to pump up your products, your
financial aims, your view of the world, and of course your own shall
we say, 'unique' view of thermodynamics. And you do all this not from
a goal of proselytizing a notion, or an ethic, but from your own petty
interests and insecurities.

A MODERATOR is supposed to moderate. As in, moderation. To be even
handed, aloof, resolve disputes, etc. A moderator is not supposed to
be injecting his/her opinion into the debate at every opportunity. And
if they do, they are certainly not supposed to use the power of their
position to reinforce their own view, which at that point really
becomes precisely antithetical to the whole principle of moderation
and moderating. The elephant in the room at craftweb that no one
really talks about, is that you aren't a moderator, you are an OWNER.
You own the forum, and in order to keep in good with the landlord,
people don't complain about the sh*t that keeps backing up in the
john.

What Craftweb should really have is a rotating moderatorship or an
academic moderator. If, this was really as professed, a place for
learning. I suggest you ban me, because I'm not stepping into line in
the way I know you want me to.

Bob Stephan is the moderator at the Glass Art Society board. You can
post if you buy a membership. I never really saw a reason to join
before. But, I have seen the evolution of glass boards from when there
was only usenet. Frankly, I don't care for where we've ended up, with
sponsorship and unilateral control by one individual. I think at this
point I feel much more comfortable with a "society" being in charge.
So, I will leave Craftweb to go to the GAS board. I think there is
much more potential there for an unvarnished exchange of glass info.

"David W" wrote in message
om...
There is another message board, Craftweb, where I had a recent dispute
with the moderator. The moderator posted some accusations and then
didn't allow me to respond. If anyone has been in that position, you
know how frustrating that is. In fact, he reffered to this as, "a foul
mouthed rant". I really am sorry to have to engage in such a silly
maneuver, but its the only way I could respond to the guy. I'm sure
this is futile, and admittedly childish, but it gives me a bit of
satisfaction to know my response is on the record somewhere.

"Your drop shipping dichroic doesn't amount to a "favor" to anyone.
Given the CBS pricing strategy it allows YOU to buy wholesale at a
better price. Which is typical from you. I simply informed CBS I would
be buying 25 sheets. Its not a big deal, I need the writeoff.

Lets face it, this is all about you, your little power trip. The fact
is not that I like to argue, but that you're uncomfortable with
disagreement. Hell you managed to ban or drive off all the Republicans
on the board. Yes, I do like Bob Stephan. I always have. I don't like
his politics, no. But He's a cool guy. Original ideas, great
intelligence and technical knowledge, and just look at his site to see
that he has a sense of humor. What you really want to have here is not
a discussion group, but a gentlemans club for people who'll share
similar opinions and voice them at a safe distance. To me, that's
chicken****.

About my work, when you came to my studio you were LITERALLY hopping
up and down on one foot and saying, "no one's doing anything like
this", and asking me to sell you stuff for your gallery. When I
balked, you said you would produce it yourself. When you got back, you
reported on Craftweb that you had had an epiphany on the beach.
Remember that Pete? I know Mary Beth does. I bit my tongue. But that
was a bitter pill, I can tell you. I can only imagine how many other
people's work you've ripped off. For anyone who has actually talked
with you privately, they know you are really about making the cash,
art be screwed. And of course as Shute has pointed out, the private
Pete is considerably less scrupulous than the public Pete. I wish I
had recorded that whole story about how you invited other artists to
your studio and told them the wrong materials to use.

In fact, your whole deal with being a moderator in the first place was
ripped off from Shute, and really, he has an arguable position in
being ****ed off. I agree with Bob. I think your are completely
unsuited to this position. You use it to pump up your products, your
financial aims, your view of the world, and of course your own shall
we say, 'unique' view of thermodynamics. And you do all this not from
a goal of proselytizing a notion, or an ethic, but from your own petty
interests and insecurities.

A MODERATOR is supposed to moderate. As in, moderation. To be even
handed, aloof, resolve disputes, etc. A moderator is not supposed to
be injecting his/her opinion into the debate at every opportunity. And
if they do, they are certainly not supposed to use the power of their
position to reinforce their own view, which at that point really
becomes precisely antithetical to the whole principle of moderation
and moderating. The elephant in the room at craftweb that no one
really talks about, is that you aren't a moderator, you are an OWNER.
You own the forum, and in order to keep in good with the landlord,
people don't complain about the sh*t that keeps backing up in the
john.

What Craftweb should really have is a rotating moderatorship or an
academic moderator. If, this was really as professed, a place for
learning. I suggest you ban me, because I'm not stepping into line in
the way I know you want me to.

Bob Stephan is the moderator at the Glass Art Society board. You can
post if you buy a membership. I never really saw a reason to join
before. But, I have seen the evolution of glass boards from when there
was only usenet. Frankly, I don't care for where we've ended up, with
sponsorship and unilateral control by one individual. I think at this
point I feel much more comfortable with a "society" being in charge.
So, I will leave Craftweb to go to the GAS board. I think there is
much more potential there for an unvarnished exchange of glass info.


Having followed the small tiffs and riffs and arguments for several years on
Brad's board, and then over to the CraftWeb forum, I must say, "it is about
time somebody spoke up."

Not knowing any of the group personally or privately, but only watching what
they type, the replies and comments made, it just sounded like a "good ole
boys" club.

I miss the Newsletter out of Vermont that was published/printed 4 times a
year, by David, before all the internet stuff and personalities and
possessive attitude.

I blow glass for me, and give it away if I feel like it, sell it if I feel
like it and depend on another job with glass to earn a living and pay my
bills. In that I am fortunate, but I tired of all the childish rants and
attitudes of CraftWeb long ago.

I "left them with their toys" and found nothing more interesting about it.

Thank you, David, for making mention of the Glass Art Society board.

"Javahut" wrote in message ...
"David W" wrote in message
om...
There is another message board, Craftweb, where I had a recent dispute [snip] I think at this
point I feel much more comfortable with a "society" being in charge.
So, I will leave Craftweb to go to the GAS board. I think there is
much more potential there for an unvarnished exchange of glass info.

Thank you, David, for making mention of the Glass Art Society board.

Javahut, I just checked out the GAS forum and it's still so new and
cold and empty. I hope some GAS member (who therefore is allowed to
post) will advise the webmaster to jazz it up a bit: avatars and
inserted pix, if possible. At present it seems to be a tiny
collection of hesitant whispers from a few Seattle glassblowers. No
fusers, no coldworkers, no artists. Well, maybe that's what GAS has
become.

And will someone please tell them to drop the forum classification of
"International". People who can read and write English should all be
interested in each others' info, from all over the world.

C.C.

Most of the boards that I am familiar with (3) do have a core group of
contributors who's names become familiar, present company included, but it
has been my experience that some of those "regulars" do contribute some very
sound advice and make cogent observations for all participants and lurkers,
present company included. As an aside the GAS board is as close to zero as a
board can be and I think Ms. Cohen is correct, the GAS board represents what
GAS has become. It is easy to take sides in a dispute and lose sight of the
pearls of wisdom that do get posted now and again on these internet boards.
My only suggestion is that just because David has a conflict, and "spoke
up", with the moderator does not mean the Craftweb board is worthless or
because you felt it was about "childish rants and attitudes" that that is
what we should believe or that is what transpires over there. At one time,
and that is long ago now, that criticism did fit the CraftWeb but under the
present moderators stewardship it has grown into board that does contribute
excellent advice to the glass community as does this board and I would say
with minimal to almost non existent rants and attitudes. It really is not in
anyone's interest to throw the baby out with the bathwater.



Having followed the small tiffs and riffs and arguments for several years on
Brad's board, and then over to the CraftWeb forum, I must say, "it is about
time somebody spoke up."

Not knowing any of the group personally or privately, but only watching what
they type, the replies and comments made, it just sounded like a "good ole
boys" club.

I miss the Newsletter out of Vermont that was published/printed 4 times a
year, by David, before all the internet stuff and personalities and
possessive attitude.

I blow glass for me, and give it away if I feel like it, sell it if I feel
like it and depend on another job with glass to earn a living and pay my
bills. In that I am fortunate, but I tired of all the childish rants and
attitudes of CraftWeb long ago.

I "left them with their toys" and found nothing more interesting about it.

Thank you, David, for making mention of the Glass Art Society board.

(Carol Cohen) wrote in message . com...
"Javahut" wrote in message ...
"David W" wrote in message
om...
There is another message board, Craftweb, where I had a recent dispute [snip] I think at this
point I feel much more comfortable with a "society" being in charge.
So, I will leave Craftweb to go to the GAS board. I think there is
much more potential there for an unvarnished exchange of glass info.

Thank you, David, for making mention of the Glass Art Society board.

Javahut, I just checked out the GAS forum and it's still so new and
cold and empty. I hope some GAS member (who therefore is allowed to
post) will advise the webmaster to jazz it up a bit: avatars and
inserted pix, if possible. At present it seems to be a tiny
collection of hesitant whispers from a few Seattle glassblowers. No
fusers, no coldworkers, no artists. Well, maybe that's what GAS has
become.

And will someone please tell them to drop the forum classification of
"International". People who can read and write English should all be
interested in each others' info, from all over the world.

C.C.


Yeah, I'm not sure what happened over there. I looked at it about two
months ago, and there were a whole bunch of posts. Now the format has
changed and apparently Bob Stephan isn't the moderator anymore. Or if
he is, there's no mention of it.

I've seen a bunch of glass boards start up, and go down. What they
really need is to have people go over there and start sharing their
experiences. I hope the whole glass message board phenomenon keeps
evolving to end up at a good healthy place.

Well, GAS was always primarily hot glass and that mostly furnace glass.
Cold working isn't discussed here either. Warm glass showed a rise in GAS
with the Tucson GAS Conference, but that area was strong for it.
I get on CraftWeb and a lot of good people are there. I really like it
that most of the stupid stuff ends up in a separate category and that stuff
is maintained by subject so that if a discussion gets rotten, I can ignore
it, unlike boards where everything has to be waded through.
I would be just as happy if avatars and funny faces went away although
being able to post images is nice.

--
Mike Firth
Hot Glass Bits Furnace Working Website
http://users.ticnet.com/mikefirth/hotbit46.htm Latest notes

"Carol Cohen" wrote in message
om...
"Javahut" wrote in message
...
"David W" wrote in message
om...
There is another message board, Craftweb, where I had a recent dispute
[snip] I think at this
point I feel much more comfortable with a "society" being in charge.
So, I will leave Craftweb to go to the GAS board. I think there is
much more potential there for an unvarnished exchange of glass info.

Thank you, David, for making mention of the Glass Art Society board.

Javahut, I just checked out the GAS forum and it's still so new and
cold and empty. I hope some GAS member (who therefore is allowed to
post) will advise the webmaster to jazz it up a bit: avatars and
inserted pix, if possible. At present it seems to be a tiny
collection of hesitant whispers from a few Seattle glassblowers. No
fusers, no coldworkers, no artists. Well, maybe that's what GAS has
become.

And will someone please tell them to drop the forum classification of
"International". People who can read and write English should all be
interested in each others' info, from all over the world.

C.C.

"Henry Halem" wrote in message
...
Most of the boards that I am familiar with (3) do have a core group of
contributors who's names become familiar, present company included, but it
has been my experience that some of those "regulars" do contribute some
very
sound advice and make cogent observations for all participants and
lurkers,
present company included. As an aside the GAS board is as close to zero as
a
board can be and I think Ms. Cohen is correct, the GAS board represents
what
GAS has become. It is easy to take sides in a dispute and lose sight of
the
pearls of wisdom that do get posted now and again on these internet
boards.
My only suggestion is that just because David has a conflict, and "spoke
up", with the moderator does not mean the Craftweb board is worthless or
because you felt it was about "childish rants and attitudes" that that is
what we should believe or that is what transpires over there. At one time,
and that is long ago now, that criticism did fit the CraftWeb but under
the
present moderators stewardship it has grown into board that does
contribute
excellent advice to the glass community as does this board and I would say
with minimal to almost non existent rants and attitudes. It really is not
in
anyone's interest to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I agree with the baby and bathwater thing, I have seen alot of information
posted, far more than I could have gleaned from reading alone in any other
place, and quite honestly, until today I have not been there reading in a
very long time. Just didn't care for it.
After David W's posting here about that board, I went there to see what had
changed, and with the exception of that particular thread, there is alot of
good information there, and the postings seem to have a lot more going for
them than when I left it.
Given the fact that "I" wouldn't want the job of moderating anything, and
personalities being what they are, where everyone is different, and in an
artistic vein, there are individual conflicts bound to crop up, that appears
to be what has happened in this instance.
For me to say, as I did, what things were like over at that board, when I
hadn't read it in a while, probably was not fair, to anyone. So I did spend
today, reading and digesting a few threads there.
I found most of it informative, and educational, far better than I recall it
a year ago, but the thread that was written about to start this thread here
was leaning backwards, like two guys that make a line in the sand and both
know ahead of time they are going to stand as close to it as possible and by
doing so will **** the other off to know end.

As long as those are the only two getting wet, it suits me just fine, there
is alot of information that can be learned when not standing in the sand.

Henry Halem wrote in message ...
Most of the boards that I am familiar with (3) do have a core group of
contributors who's names become familiar, present company included, but it
has been my experience that some of those "regulars" do contribute some very
sound advice and make cogent observations for all participants and lurkers,
present company included. As an aside the GAS board is as close to zero as a
board can be and I think Ms. Cohen is correct, the GAS board represents what
GAS has become. It is easy to take sides in a dispute and lose sight of the
pearls of wisdom that do get posted now and again on these internet boards.
My only suggestion is that just because David has a conflict, and "spoke
up", with the moderator does not mean the Craftweb board is worthless or
because you felt it was about "childish rants and attitudes" that that is
what we should believe or that is what transpires over there. At one time,
and that is long ago now, that criticism did fit the CraftWeb but under the
present moderators stewardship it has grown into board that does contribute
excellent advice to the glass community as does this board and I would say
with minimal to almost non existent rants and attitudes. It really is not in
anyone's interest to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I agree with most of what you say. I think a good online message board
for glassworkers is a boon to our work on many levels, and one of the
few really great things about this new computer age. And, I would
never suggest that Craftweb doesn't have *extremely* valuable
information and contributors. But as I said, this is an evolving
process, and I think we might continue to work the bugs out. I know I
have been working for that ever since I really moved from usenet to
private boards.

I have had more than a few conflicts with moderators over the years,
and they virtually always stem from issues of commercialism and
marketing mixed in with genuine advice. Message boards have come to be
viewed by their owners--and that's what they are, owners, not
moderators--as primarily if not wholly marketing devices for products.
And I wish we could iron that out. Like I said, academic control by an
institution, or a grant run board would be my preference. The other
thing is, being an "owner" of a discussion group (bizzare as the
notion is, that's where we are)really requires the person make a huge
effort to control the tenor of their own input. What has happened over
at Craftweb is really a situation of bullying people with out of the
click ideas--political or otherwerwise. Sadly its easy for people who
may agree with the perspective of the bullier, to overlook that
behaviour. If there is one thing I think we have all experienced from
our guilds and our organizations, is that its not healthy to give one
person unilateral control over issues that affect our work.

The other thing that top

I also wanted to add, my post above is EXACTLY the post that was
removed from Craftweb by the moderator; with the exception of adding
an asterisk to the word sh*t, and replacing with "screwed" a less
moderate term. In deference to George Carlin, I couldn't bring myself
to astericize 'screwed'.

The moderator is claiming I edited the post for republication here,
after I deleted it myself from Craftweb. That is absurd, and a lie.
What happened was, Craftweb has an edit function, and I had two other
paragraphs in the original post that were shall we say, Mammetish. A
bit later, and before it was deleted from Craftweb, I cooled down and
edited those out. But again, the post is exactly how it was when it
was deleted from craftweb by the moderator.

I'm really not here to start a flame war. As I said I felt a desire to
respond to smears about me that the moderator had made to my friends
and peers.

Mike Firth wrote:
Well, GAS was always primarily hot glass and that mostly furnace
glass.
Cold working isn't discussed here either.

Mike, coldworking has definitely been discussed here (check the
archives). But I do agree with you about eschewing those adolescent
twitches called emotikons. However, setting an avatar of a photo of
oneself is a useful communication tool, in that we all could find it
helpful to have an idea of the face that goes with the words. On a
non-Usenet forum I'm on (different subject) I use a tiny photo. What
DO all these glass-arts people I read here, look like? After all,
(I've observed) glass artists seem to be notoriously below-average in
looks, compared to other artists. Maybe we can choose to lie and
represent ourselves as the top (Billy M.) or the bottom (Dale C.) --
"Nobody knows you're a dog on the Internet".

C.C. (woof woof)