Message for animaux

Another question: Why do we think it is dreadful that children do not
send thank you notes for gifts we give to them when most adults do not
send a thank you note when they receive a gift from a child?

--
Brenda Lewis
WIP: "Pink Baby" photo frame, Candamar

Another question: Why do we think it is dreadful that children do not
send thank you notes for gifts we give to them when most adults do not
send a thank you note when they receive a gift from a child?

This is true! I hadn't thought about it before.

It's not exactly leading by example is it?

Caryn
Blue Wizard Designs
http://hometown.aol.com/crzy4xst/index.html
Updated: 7/7/03 -- now available Dragon of the Stars
View WIPs at: http://community.webshots.com/user/carynlws (Caryn's UFO's)

I haven't been following this thread, but the "rural" caught my eye and
there was my name!

Karen C - California wrote:

With half a million people in the county, Akron has a higher population than
*all* of Wyoming, and is close on the heels of all of North Dakota.
Yup. North Dakota has 634,110 as of the 2002 census (down from 636,550
in 2001, and 641,131 in 2000) Here's a site that lists populations for
all the states: http://www.areaconnect.com/population.htm?s=ND You can
click on other states listed at the bottom.

Dianne -- how far is it from you to the nearest metropolitan area with half a
million people? Joan? We got anyone in Montana who wants to invite Caryn to
see what "rural America" really looks like?
The closest to me (150 miles - 3 hours) is Winnipeg, Manitoba with a
population of 685,507. The next closest is the Minneapolis area (300+
miles, 5 hours away) with 2,968,806 in 2000. Then it goes down to the
90,599 people in Fargo, 1 hour away, our largest city, with Bismarck
(the capitol), Minot and Grand Forks following (GF & Fgo in the eastern
part of the state, the other two in the western, 4 hours away). The
rest of the towns are *much* smaller. There really aren't any
"in-between" cities around here. Either they're very large or very
small (compared to eastern cities). Even in Minnesota, the next largest
town after the Twin Cities is St. Cloud with 90,000.
Then there's Des Moines, Iowa with 198,000; Sioux Falls, SD has
123,000. I'm not even sure how far I'd have to go (other than MPLS or
Winnipeg) to get to 500,000 people. Milwaukee, I guess, has 500,000+.
That's only 650-some miles!
All probably more than you wanted to know! )))

--
Joan

See my first-ever design he
http://www.heritageshoppe.com/joan.jpg

"Stitch when you are young and poor, frame when you are old and rich."
- Elizabeth's (rctn'r) sister's MIL (Barbara Marr)

On 09 Feb 2004 12:25:23 GMT, ekoluvr (Tia
Mary-remove nekoluvr to reply ) wrote:

What's the fourth one?
Sacramento/Stockton, even though it probably won't be long before Sac
is itself a suburb of the Bay Area.

I separate SD from LA/OC (and Ventura/Riverside/SanBerdoo), though
there are some people who commute between SD and LA/OC, because of
those 17 miles of Camp Pendleton between SD and OC.
Darla
Sacred cows make great hamburgers.

Brenda Lewis wrote:

Another question: Why do we think it is dreadful that children do not
send thank you notes for gifts we give to them when most adults do not
send a thank you note when they receive a gift from a child?


Beats me--personally, I think it's *doubly* dreadful
not to thank a child who gives a gift (once because the thanks
are due and twice because the adult is supposed to be setting
a good example).

Best wishes,
Ericka

cheshirecat wrote:

Exactly. When my SIL and nieces went to Costa Rica over Christmas, we watched
their guinea pig and gerbils. In return they bought us trinkets and some
coffee, which we loved.

I mailed them a thank you card and my SIL said I didn't have to thank them for
their "thank YOU gift" for watching their pets.

So, I'm always on the side of polite, I just don't expect it. That way I'm
always surprised by someone's good will.


I think this one is a legitimate debate, however.
It's not that thanks are a bad thing, but it becomes a
little dicey if you get into a "thanks escalation."
For instance, I know people who will send you a thank
you gift for giving *them* a thank you gift! For
example, let's say I am a houseguest at their house and
(quite properly) I bring them a hosting gift to say thanks
for putting me up. They will then turn around and send
me a box of chocolates for giving them a hosting gift.
This is often a sort of weird agression thing in people
who can't stand to have the scales even--they want you
to always be in their debt. So, when receiving a gift
that is, in fact, a thank you for something you've done,
I think it's always good to consider carefully what you
do next to make sure it's not escalating things (which
ultimately belittles the thanks the person was offering
you in the first place). I don't think that sending a
thank you note is over the top (usually, at least), but
the situation is worth evaluating on a case by case basis.

Best wishes,
Ericka

In article , Ericka Kammerer
writes:

For instance, I know people who will send you a thank
you gift for giving *them* a thank you gift!

Childless friends of my grandmother sent small Christmas checks to the
grandchildren of their friends. I could count on it that "Dear Daniel and
Martha, Thanks for the $10" would result in a check for $50 for Valentine's
Day. Why? Because I was the only one of the younger generation who sent
prompt thank you notes! My thank you for that $50 would beget another $50 for
Easter. My thank you for that $50 would beget another $50 for my birthday. At
what other job can a high school student earn $200 an hour?

--
Finished 12/14/03 -- Mermaid (Dimensions)
WIP: Fireman's Prayer, Amid Amish Life, Angel of Autumn, Calif Sampler, Holiday
Snowglobe

Paralegal - Writer - Editor - Researcher
http://hometown.aol.com/kmc528/KMC.html

cheshirecat wrote:

On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 13:11:57 -0500, Ericka Kammerer opined:



You know, the point of having a codified system of
etiquette is to allow all of us to align expectations appropriately
so that we don't have to hash this out on an individual basis.


Yes, but these expectations of a codified system are unrealistic.


How are they unrealistic? I can see that it's unrealistic
to have expectations, in that reality clearly shows that some
people don't care to live up to the standards, but excepting
rare situations that would obviously be exempt anyway, I don't
see how it's an unrealistic standard for anyone to achieve.


Nice that they're sending thanks. Cards are not necessary.
All that is necessary is a handwritten note.

Do you see what you just did? You want to also control HOW people do their
thanks. Now it's not necessary for a card. Isn't a thank you card a
handwritten note?


No. I was simply pointing out that no one has to go
out and buy a card to send thanks. A simple sheet of paper
is just fine. In fact, it's preferred, accoridng to
etiquette.

So, it's a never ending expectation. Nothing is okay. There
is always something.


No, there isn't. It's very, very simple. If you're
given a gift that you do not open in front of the giver and
thank them at that time, all you need to do is take out a
sheet of paper and write a thank you note in which you
specifically mention the gift and how you enjoy it. Then
you put it in the mail. It couldn't possibly be any
simpler. Those who cannot write for whatever reason are,
of course, exempted and are to take advantage of whatever
means of communication *is* possible for them. I mean,
this seems *totally* lowest common denominator to me.
You don't need a card. You don't need a phone. You don't
need a computer. You don't need a typewriter. You need
only the most basic of tools and only a few minutes of
your time.


Absolutely. When gifts are opened in front of the giver
and the recipient thanks the giver immediately, verbal thanks
are sufficient, according to US etiquette.

US etiquette? Oh, I wasn't asking for US rules. I was asking if that was
acceptable to you.


It is acceptable to me *BECAUSE* it is US etiquette.

There is no blanket US etiquette. Some people are boars,
some are not. Some are in between.


Based on what criteria? It seems to me the height
of hubris to declare someone a boor or not based on your
*personal* assessment and your *personal* criteria while
pooh-poohing an objective set of criteria developed by
many people over many years. While any system of etiquette
is imperfect, to me it beats the pants off of declaring
that everyone gets to evaluate everyone else based on
their personal criteria. I'd rather an imperfect objective,
public standard than even a perfect idiosyncratic, subjective,
private standard. At least with the former, we all have
equal access. Having private standards for behavior is
*THE* criterion that is used to separate people into
social classes/cliques/etc.
And yes, there is US etiquette. You, or others,
may choose to ignore it, but it's there and has been for
years and years and years. It is currently lovingly tended
by the likes of Miss Manners (Judith Martin), Amy Vanderbilt,
the latest incarnation of Emily Post, Letitia Baldrige,
and several others. There are even schools of protocol
for those who work in advanced areas and need to know the
esoteric things that few of the rest of us ever encounter.
These mavens don't always agree on the details of
interpretation, but they agree on the overwhelming
majority of issues (and their areas of disagreement are
generally in areas much more detailed than would affect most
people). Miss Manners' latest book, in fact, is
specifically about American etiquette and the democratic
foundations that set it apart from European etiquette.
(Now comes the part where people rage about
a system determined by a relatively few people. Well,
it's either that, or codify a set of rules that has
no ability to change with the times, which is a
disaster all its own. Or, of course, go without any
guidelines whatsoever, which leads to the current chaos
where everyone is ****ed off at everything everyone else
does that isn't exactly the way they'd do it themselves,
which is, to my way of thinking, the height of selfishness.)


Far too much scrutiny in this type of "system." I never heard

of US etiquette.


There are books and books and books in any library.


Well, I'm 48 years old and I have no idea what "rules" have been set down. I
would assume since I am rather well read and I didn't know about this US
etiquette that many others do not know.


A sad commentary, I think. The information is
very easy to find, and I would think that most people have
been taught the basics at their mother's (or father's ;-)
knees, whether they know it or not. It's only stubborness
and a perception that to have any concern for proper
behavior is snobbish that keeps people from learning
and using guidelines that make the social machinery
work so much more smoothly.

Best wishes,
Ericka

cheshirecat wrote:

On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 13:16:36 -0500, Ericka Kammerer opined:

But these are completely separate issues. Regardless
of whether you're thanked or not, you oughtn't give primarily
in order to receive thanks. Regardless of whether it was
expected, you ought to be thanking the giver appropriately
(verbally if you opened the gift in the presence of the giver;
in writing promptly if you didn't). It's a Good Thing for
you not to get your knickers in a twist over whether someone
sends a thank you note, but your not getting upset over the
lack is *NOT* a dispensation for recipients of your gifts
to forego writing thank you notes. The rightness of their
actions is in no way related to your response, except that
any hurt feelings you might have at their wrong actions
is an additional negative effect of their wrong actions.


I disagree. If my dissatisfaction of their inability to send or say a thank you
is making me upset, I have to review my reaction. Again, I am the only one who
can or cannot make me nuts.


That's not what I'm saying. Turn it the other way
'round. I'm saying that regardless of what you feel (and
hopefully you're *NOT* choosing to go nuts over other peoples'
behavior), it in no way affects their responsibility to
do the right thing. They're expected to do the right thing
(i.e., thank you) whether you care or not. Just as their
actions don't determine what you ought to be doing,
your actions don't determine what *they* ought to be
doing. You don't only have to write thank you notes for
those people who will throw hissy fits if you don't.

Best wishes,
Ericka

On 2/9/04 12:49 PM,"Caryn" posted:

Caryn and I will make the
trek up (see how I speak for you, Caryn - as the chauffeur) one of those
days, I'm sure.

I noticed that! ROFL

Well, at least I was aware, in my outspoken-ness. We'll just definitely be
making a coffee stop ;^)

It's not a problem tho, generally I can escape the house without it being a
problem.

Hmm - I suddenly had this vision of bringing all the boys (the furry ones) -
what a romp.

I don't think the kids have off that week, nor do I think there are any
scheduled appts. This is all subject to change, as oldest dd is about to get
braces, and may have to get them adjusted! lol

Sounds good - and I won't be panicking about Columbus for at least another 2
weeks from then.

Ellice