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  #21  
Old September 27th 07, 06:51 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Peter W.. Rowe,
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 355
Default Asbestos

On Wed, 26 Sep 2007 22:44:38 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry Frosty
wrote:

I suspect our beloved moderator would prefer we don't get into a huge
discussion on the merits (or lack thereof) of gov't regulations, but I
do so hope he allows you and the other Brits who will surly take
umbrage with my POV a change to respond.


It's not a political forum, after all. But if the discussion is about
regulations as they regard chemicals used in jewelry work, or the conversation
directly evolves from that "on topic" discussion, I can be easily convinced to
let it proceed.

What might more quickly get me to shut the discussion down would be if you all
start insulting and calling each other nasty names or the like. This of course,
is always a distinct danger whenever talk with a political side, and especially
discussing governments and their policies, rears its head.

So if you want me to stay on the sidelines and keep approving these comments,
well, Keep It Civil and Professional in tone. You can call Ideas, concepts, and
statements stupid, but don't say that about the people expressing those ideas
and concepts and making those statements. it's a fine line, easily crossed.
Stay on the safe side of that line, please.

Peter
Ads
  #22  
Old September 27th 07, 04:05 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Frosty
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 155
Default Asbestos

In rec.crafts.jewelry almost on Wed, 26 Sep 2007 22:51:12 -0700 a
smoke signal from "Peter W.. Rowe,"
rang out, which was heard to say :

On Wed, 26 Sep 2007 22:44:38 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry Frosty
wrote:


(typos fixed)

I suspect our beloved moderator would prefer we don't get into a huge
discussion on the merits (or lack thereof) of gov't regulations, but I
do so hope he allows you and the other Brits who will surely take
umbrage with my POV a chance to respond.


It's not a political forum, after all. But if the discussion is about
regulations as they regard chemicals used in jewelry work, or the conversation
directly evolves from that "on topic" discussion, I can be easily convinced to
let it proceed.

What might more quickly get me to shut the discussion down would be if you all
start insulting and calling each other nasty names or the like. This of course,
is always a distinct danger whenever talk with a political side, and especially
discussing governments and their policies, rears its head.

So if you want me to stay on the sidelines and keep approving these comments,
well, Keep It Civil and Professional in tone. You can call Ideas, concepts, and
statements stupid, but don't say that about the people expressing those ideas
and concepts and making those statements. it's a fine line, easily crossed.
Stay on the safe side of that line, please.

Oh ok. rolls eyes
And if any of you want to really let me have it, I created a
debate/discussion/yell & curse at Frosty (or whoever I am) list at
http://HaleBobb.com and you'll be approved unless you're the guy who I
won't approve (who doesn't read any newsgroups..just mention Frosty.)
I really enjoy a good row, but I warn you: I pull few punches & am a
real bad-ass whilst hiding behind this keyboard!

Peter


  #23  
Old September 27th 07, 04:05 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
ted frater
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 133
Default Asbestos

Frosty wrote:
In rec.crafts.jewelry almost on Wed, 26 Sep 2007 08:38:28 -0700 a
smoke signal from Ted Frater rang out, which
was heard to say :


Frosty wrote:

In rec.crafts.jewelry almost on Thu, 20 Sep 2007 18:07:21 -0700 a
smoke signal from "William Black" rang
out, which was heard to say :



"Frosty" wrote in message
m...



I still want some asbestos, preferably in dry, powdered form.
FWIW, I use cyanide-based plating solutions too.
Do you know that just one teaspoon of cyanide can kill a whole
****-load of people?? Oh dear! yawn

If you're using cyanide in the UK you'll have the appropriate permissions
and training.

Similar permissions and training are required for the handling and
management of asbestos.


I yawn in your general direction.
(apologies to Monty Python)


Hi Frosty,

As your still wth us!! then I guess your careful enough not to mix
cyanide with acid.



And what, pray tell, do you imagine might happen?
Do you have a clue the allowable ratios?
(According to the American Association of Poison Control Centers Toxic
Exposure Surveillance System, in 2004, 8 fatalities occurred out of
257 total cyanide exposures.)


Also do you have the essential antidote right to hand? if this worst
case scenario happened?



Well, I do have a box of amyl nitrate pearls in the 'fridge. I don't
have sodium nitrite, and sodium thiosulfate but I can buy it OTC if I
want to. All Americans who work with cyanides can buy these three
items, along with the various needles and stuff required) without a
doctors prescription.

(Inhaling crushed amyl nitrite pearls is a temporizing measure before
intravenous administration of sodium nitrite. Sodium nitrite induces
methemoglobin in red blood cells, which combines with cyanide, thus
releasing cytochrome oxidase enzyme. Thiosulfate, in its turn, has a
higher affinity to cyanide than methemoglobin and produces
thiocyanate, which is renally excreted.)


Just curious.
Im all for making up my own rules but also make the appropriate
safety measures.



I believe I'm better educated than most American jewelers regarding
the safe handling of most of the chemicals jewelers encounter, only
because I've taken the trouble to research them.


The gvmt dept charged with implementing all these health and safety
regulations have 4 officers covering an area some 100 miles by 50 miles.
They spend most of their time sitting in their local offices doing
paperwork.



Yes, one cannot reply upon government to protect.
We 'Merkin's used to know this.
And without devolving into a philosophical/political debate, we were
once a fiercely independent people, but we've become a nation of
sniveling, dependent, sheep.


they havnt a hope in hell in adequately policing all and every
business in that area let alone anyone working on their own in a shed
somewhere.



Do you work in a shed?
I work in a jewelry store. We even have flush toilets.


So the chances of being caught are practically nill.



Policing? Caught? Oh wait, you're in the UK. Never mind. I see.
Y'all exist at the whim of your government. Your rights are granted by
them. Ya see, over here (we once knew that) our rights come from our
Creator, and our government (is supposed to) exist[s] at our whim.


To give you ane example of the stupidity of the regulations.



I could write whole books on the stupidity of ALL government
regulations...
I suspect our beloved moderator would prefer we don't get into a huge
discussion on the merits (or lack thereof) of gov't regulations, but I
do so hope he allows you and the other Brits who will surly take
umbrage with my POV a change to respond.


you can transport say 50 new car batteries filled with h2so4 quite
legally. as there not classified as waste.
BUT you cannot transport 50 identical batteries that are now dead, ie
sulfated up to your recycling center., where you get a dollar each for
the lead content.
the recycling center have a 38 ton artic that has these batteries
tipped into the steel body, and then driven some 270 miles to the
recycling plant. Thats done at night when the vehicle checking stations
are closed.
En route all the acid thats running out of the upside down batteries
drips all the way !!. Is there any check? no theres not.



Gee...big surprise.
Force does work. Only freedom works. The freedom to err is the
ultimate human right, and these gov't thugs' attempts prevent mistakes
by limiting freedom do the human race a grave disservice.


So much for health and safety.


Ted
also in the UK.




Hi Frosty, and Peter,

We all have a"duty of care" not only for our fellow craftsmen but to
everyone else, its I think a fundamental rule for all humanity.
thats why I chose to ask Frosty if he had the appropriate safety
measures in house.

Also Im glad to hear he has done so as I'd hate to hear that he had had
an accident with cyanide and was no longer with us.
Theres an interesting aviation book by Ernest Gahn, about his lying
training and work up to and including the 1939-45 war.
Forgotten the title just now( just remembered it- called Fate is the
hunter) but being careful was his motto.
As others have said, there are bold pilots and old pilots.
the same applies i think to any risk activity, and I include in that
our kind of work.
theres a current thread running on rec. crafts.metalworking that covers
press work and accidents. Not pleasnt reading ,I found. But an essential
reminder of the sort of risks that exist.
Even with bench work and soldering, one can get hurt and even using
cutting pliers one can pinch ones skin if they slip. Ive done it.
So safety is part of our remit to ourselves and to all that work in
our trade.
Perhaps we should extend this thread to list the sort of accidents we
have all? had and survived. Im happy to start if youll want me to. Ive
some funny ones as well as ones ive been lucky to get away with.
Lets have a response

Ted

  #24  
Old September 28th 07, 02:39 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
William Black
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 77
Default Asbestos


"Ted Frater" wrote in message
...

The gvmt dept charged with implementing all these health and safety
regulations have 4 officers covering an area some 100 miles by 50 miles.
They spend most of their time sitting in their local offices doing
paperwork.
they havnt a hope in hell in adequately policing all and every
business in that area let alone anyone working on their own in a shed
somewhere. So the chances of being caught are practically nill.


The UK Health and Safety Executive are not an enforcement authority.

The enforcement of safety regulations is a duty laid upon the employer and
his/her employees.

The HSE come around and prosecute you, after you have had an accident, for
not applying 'a safe system of work'.

It's not their job to implement the regulations, it's yours.

They just drag you into court if you break the regs and someone gets hurt...

In English law it is YOU that has the duty to implement a 'safe system of
work', not a government department.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.




  #25  
Old September 28th 07, 02:39 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Frosty
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 155
Default Asbestos

In rec.crafts.jewelry almost on Thu, 27 Sep 2007 08:05:27 -0700 a
smoke signal from Ted Frater rang out, which
was heard to say :


snip

Perhaps we should extend this thread to list the sort of accidents we
have all? had and survived. Im happy to start if youll want me to. Ive
some funny ones as well as ones ive been lucky to get away with.
Lets have a response

Ted


I once saw a guy get a bit of sawblade stuck in his eyeball.
And I saw the same guy push a graver deep into his knuckle. That's the
reason I resisted learning how to do any bright cutting or pave'. But
then I visited Stuller and bought all the fancy tools for it (desktop
microscope, that ball thing, and a GraverMax, and the powerhone with
angle thing.
I do my best not to cut or stab or poison myself.
It hurts and I don't like it.
But...separating disks! Need I say more?
  #26  
Old September 28th 07, 03:16 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Peter W.. Rowe,
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 355
Default Asbestos

On Thu, 27 Sep 2007 08:05:27 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry Ted Frater
wrote:

Perhaps we should extend this thread to list the sort of accidents we
have all? had and survived. Im happy to start if youll want me to. Ive
some funny ones as well as ones ive been lucky to get away with.
Lets have a response


This could get to be a long list...

Worst looking jewelers sawblade accident I've seen was the girl in college who
somehow broke a blade in such a way that a section of the broken blade ended up
piercing her thumb, vertically from the middle of the nail (how it penetrated
the nail I'll never know, but it did) right through and out the bottom. She did
this, swore, set down the sawframe, and was halfway through asking the person at
the bench next to her in which direction he thought she should pull out the
piece when she figured it out on her own, and pulled it out. Seconds after
that, both the pain and the bleeding started in. Till then, I'm not sure she
felt it much... Not really a serious injury, but it sure was dramatic looking.
Most torch accidents I've had happened to pieces of jewelry the torch was
pointed at. Kinda normal stuff. Melted rings, burned stones, etc. But one fun
time, with the little torch lit and sitting on it's holder, my boss at that time
reached over my shoulder to pick up something on my bench without asking or
checking if it was OK. It wasn't, as that something was still cooling from
being soldered. He flinched from the burned fingers in such a way that he moved
the sleeve of his suit coat right into the tiny flame of the torch, igniting a
bit of a rather costly suit coat sleeve. He was fine, of course, but the suit
wasn't. He never again was so cavalier about just reaching over to pick up
something on my bench...

Most of the worst actual accidents I've seen in jewelry work, however, have
involved buffing machines. Started right off with my first jewelry class in
high school, when a girl didn't tie back her long hair as instructed. It caught
in the buff one day of course, winding up on the spindle and pulling her head
rapidly into the side of the motor, where she was knocked out for a minute or
two, while also loosing about a three quarter of an inch patch of her scalp
where the hair pulled off. Fortunately, her head had also hit the off switch,
so the action stopped there...

Next buffing accident, not counting the many ouched fingers and destroyed chains
while learning to buff that sort of thing was the girl in grad school who was
buffing up some brass sheet metal triangle shapes, about three inches on a side,
using a large industrial buffing motor (about 24 inch wheels, no guards). The
point of that triangle caught in the stitching of the buff which grabbed it, and
let go about 180 degrees rotation later, flinging it right back at her. The
point stuck neatly into her sternum. As it was, having gone though only a bit
of skin, a little tissue, then sticking in that bone, it was just a painful
experience for her. But a bit up, down or to either side, and the injury could
have been much worse. I don't think I ever saw her attempt to use that machine
again...

But the worst one was while working at a silver jewelry manufacturer in upstate
New York right after grad school. They had a long time professional polisher
there, who knew his stuff pretty well. They'd also just hired a kid right out
of high school as a polisher, who was being trained by the old guy. In that
shop, the silver was handled with cotton gloves, like photo gloves, during final
polishing, to avoid scratching. I'd suggested to them when they hired me that I
thought that was a rather dangerous practice, but they weren't about to change
the procedure an account of me. But a month or two later, the kid was buffing a
solid oval bangle bracelet. Now, he was making all the mistakes. Going across
the bracelet, not with the direction of the wire, using too small a buff,
wearing those damned gloves, and worse, in holding the bracelet, instead of a
"pinch" grip, he'd hooked a finger or two through the loop of the bracelet. When
the bracelet caught on the buff, it didn't slow that 1 horsepower motor down a
bit. Just grabbed the bracelet, wrapped it around the spindle, along with the
glove he'd been wearing which it pulled off his hand. And his index finger was
still in the glove. The surgeons were not able to reattach it.

The same firm also had a tool and die maker who was in charge of the dies used
to stamp many of the parts. Bright guy. So bright in fact, he thought himself
smarter than the machines and their designers. One day, to speed his work up,
while fine tuning the mounting on a die set he was developing, he disabled the
safety switches to the small air press he was working (just a little one ton
press) Those switches normally meant he had to press both of them to trip the
press cycle. Instead, he'd rigged it up so he could trip it with a knee, no
hands needed. And when, in due course, the press double tripped, it cut a
fingertip off of each hand. Just an 8th of an inch or so. He was lucky. Could
have been worse. But I don't call this an accident. I figure he was asking for
it. Unlike another jeweler I knew back in the 70s, who'd previously worked in
the auto industry before entering the jewelry field. A press accident there had
led to him loosing both of his entire thumbs. That one, I'd heard, was a faulty
press, not a stupid operator, and of course, it wasn't in the jewelry field.

Ok. enough. There's plenty more, but that's enough.

'cept for this. Frosty, do you find those seperating disks to be worse than cup
burs into the finger? And, have you ever slipped with one of those "crown saw"
burs? The big size ones? Like a very narrow angle hart bur, but coarser teeth,
about a 15 degree angle like a knife blade, and about10 mm wide? Those puppies
can do real damage... :-)

Peter
  #27  
Old September 28th 07, 04:47 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
William Black
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 77
Default Asbestos


"Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in message
...

snip of some nasty accidents

In the UK 'workshop practice' is taught as a 'skill' in its own right.

Everyone from all the engineering disciplines did the same course as part of
their college training.

40 hours across 20 weeks of tedious filing, bending, drilling,
welding/soldering and polishing.

I learned a mantra, when I was an apprentice...

"Tie back hair, remove all jewellery, wear a cotton top layer, don't
forget your bloody watch".

Thirty five years later I still mutter it and feel for jewellery and a watch
before I start working on something.


--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.




  #28  
Old September 29th 07, 05:46 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
ted frater
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 133
Default Asbestos

William Black wrote:
"Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in message
...

snip of some nasty accidents

In the UK 'workshop practice' is taught as a 'skill' in its own right.

Everyone from all the engineering disciplines did the same course as part of
their college training.

40 hours across 20 weeks of tedious filing, bending, drilling,
welding/soldering and polishing.

I learned a mantra, when I was an apprentice...

"Tie back hair, remove all jewellery, wear a cotton top layer, don't
forget your bloody watch".

Thirty five years later I still mutter it and feel for jewellery and a watch
before I start working on something.



Thats what Id call old achool.
Is there nywhere? where those sort of basic skills are taught?
Perhaps in one of the services like The Halton RAF appentices school.
any way, now its my turn to admit Ive had accidents at work!!.

The stupidest was as follows,
I was setting up in my 20 by 10 marquee at the Great Dorset Steam
fair, and was bringing in all the equipment I need to demo the drop hammer.
I had my s/smith s stake, sone 3 ft high and 2 ft wide up against the
back wall. I was laying out the wiring and bent down sharply to put the
cabling up against the wall.,and hit my forehead right into the pointed
end of the stake.
I drew blood and put my hand on it. Felt that I had a 1/4in depression
in the bone!! still there today.
I fell backwards in a daze , my missus promply saw this happen and
carted me off to the 1st aid aid post.
with a suspected depression fracture.
BY this time i was feeling better, they said if I passed out Id better
come back smartish.

Another was my failure to tighten up the closing cone on a split sanding
wheel. Came from a shoe repairers engine.
Takes abrasive strips , is 6in dia and 1in wide.
A very useful means of fettling all sorts of things. sharpening
drills, chisels etc and deburring stampings .
Running at 1440rpm it came undone and caught my hand a real blow. all
bruised for several days.

Ive a 10 ton gothic double arch fly press, 5ft arm with 1cwt balls on
each end. and I was blanking out some 1/8th in by 1.5in bronze blanks.
Very hard so I gave the handle a real pull and slipped, I was knocked
down by the handle and had a very painful place in my chest
for some 2 weeks.
Some years later I had a chest xray and the doctor was worried I had
bone cancer.
He showed me the xray and there was this bulge on a rib.
It was the next day I put 2 and 2 together. Fly press Accident!!.

As a lad I used to cycle to school. Loved to get behind a double decker
bus at 30 mph. head down pedalling like mad.
Bus stopped I didnt see it . ran into the bus , over the handle bars
right onto the platform at the back.
that will do for the moment.
Ted.






  #29  
Old September 29th 07, 06:23 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Frosty
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 155
Default Asbestos

In rec.crafts.jewelry almost on Thu, 27 Sep 2007 19:16:05 -0700 a
smoke signal from "Peter W.. Rowe,"
rang out, which was heard to say :



'cept for this. Frosty, do you find those seperating disks to be worse than cup
burs into the finger?


Ya know, I have never liked cup burs and don't use them.

And, have you ever slipped with one of those "crown saw"
burs? The big size ones?


And frankly, I don't even know what those do and have always been
scared to use one for anything. They just don't make sense.
I'm a weird jeweler: my fingers are not all cut up despite over 30
years at the bench.
I just don't enjoy pain and try to avoid it whenever possible.

Like a very narrow angle hart bur, but coarser teeth,
about a 15 degree angle like a knife blade, and about10 mm wide? Those puppies
can do real damage... :-)

Peter


  #30  
Old September 29th 07, 06:23 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
William Black
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 77
Default Asbestos


"Ted Frater" wrote in message
...
William Black wrote:
"Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in message
...

snip of some nasty accidents

In the UK 'workshop practice' is taught as a 'skill' in its own right.

Everyone from all the engineering disciplines did the same course as part
of
their college training.

40 hours across 20 weeks of tedious filing, bending, drilling,
welding/soldering and polishing.

I learned a mantra, when I was an apprentice...

"Tie back hair, remove all jewellery, wear a cotton top layer, don't
forget your bloody watch".

Thirty five years later I still mutter it and feel for jewellery and a
watch
before I start working on something.



Thats what Id call old achool.
Is there nywhere? where those sort of basic skills are taught?


I am pleased to report that the old Birmingham School of Jewellery, now
part of the University of Central England has, within the past three or
four years, restarted two traditional apprentice training schemes, one for
horologists and one for an assortment of 'white smithing' trades.

So the first new 'full' craftsmen for a generation should just about be
entering the trade.

But as far as I know anyone doing an ONC in a practical engineering
discipline still needs to do the 40 hour workshop unit, although I imagine
the 'tin bashing' is much reduced these days.


--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.




 




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