Flatware

"Peter W.. Rowe,"

...which partly explains why, when forced to edit out some of Abrasha's
less
polite language, I substituted the word, "headstrong". in describing you.
I hope
you were not offended....

I don't take offense easily but I have a low tolerence for fools. As a
point of interest, he sent me the first message via email so I got the full
Monte as they say. I responded with a comment to the effect that we could
probably be the best of friends if he would just get that chip off his
shoulder.

The metal is far stronger and
harder, will take a much better polish, and can be made much lighter....

Ah.... I guess it is a personal thing but when I think of a spun or
sheetmetal chalice, I think of something thin and flimsy.. I suppose that
chalice was a poor choice of words to start all this as what I really want
is a nice wine glass for every day use and not something to say Mass with.

Of all the cups I bought or have seen, the one that suites me the best is
the one that seems to have been cast. It has a nice heavy feel to it.

and the degree of flexibility and control one
can have over the shape worked with a hammer would astound you...

I think I am ready to move on. I just cast another one inverting the mold
and filling from the lip and got about the same results.

Brass is very easy to cast, but not as
malleable and workable as silver.

Why is it easier to cast? It's about the same melting temp, no?

Both will, if using silver,
use items made from sheet metal with either a spinning lathe, some sort
of die
striking process, or hand forming with hammers. The latter is considered
generally to produce the finest and costliest quality of work.

Sold. I surrender. Where do I start?

The knife was like falling off a log compared to this. On the first pour I
got two perfect castings. After a lot of pounding and a little sanding, it
looks like this

http://schmidling.netfirms.com/knife.jpg

The blade as cast was about like a fat pencil.

There is lots more work to finish it but the idea is sound.

js

--
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.netfirms.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Gems, Sausage, http://schmidling.netfirms.com

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 14:58:00 GMT, "Peter W.. Rowe,"
wrote:

...which partly explains why, when forced to edit out some of Abrasha's less
polite language, I substituted the word, "headstrong". in describing you [JS]. I hope
you were not offended. (grin)

Oh, headstrong can be good in the right places. One of my doctors
says I'm too stubborn to die.

--
Marilee J. Layman

G.W. Bush says "results count!"
That's why I'm voting for Kerry

-SP- wrote:

"Jack Schmidling" wrote ...
http://schmidling.netfirms.com/cup.jpg

... It looks like you haven't used enough metal to pour.
Also, where's your gas escapes?

-SP-

Like he says. Add some vents all 'round.

When you pull the model, use a piece of welding rod or some such to make
the outside look like a balding porcupine. They'll be easy to clip off
afterward.

And like he said, pour more metal.
Make it deeper, you need more head on the mold.


--
Carl West http://carl.west.home.comcast.net

change the 'DOT' to '.' to email me

"Clutter"? This is an object-rich environment.

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 21:49:54 -0700, in õ Jack Schmidling wrote:


Brass is very easy to cast, but not as
malleable and workable as silver.

Why is it easier to cast? It's about the same melting temp, no?

Brass melts a little lower, but is also more fluid when molten, chills more
slowly so it freezes up more slowly, and shrinks in the mold less than silver.
All of this combines to make it a lot easier to get a complete casting than in
silver. That cheap indian made plated brass, such as the cup you've already
got, is often sand cast in remarkably primative setups, and works just fine.


Sold. I surrender. Where do I start?


Reading. Email me off list for more detailed suggestions. then you'll need to
buy, or make, at least a couple steel tools. And then, when you're ready to
start hammering, you're gonna get some exercise... It's actually rather
enjoyable, almost hypnotic, after you get the idea of how the metal is handled.
But email me.

Peter

I have a question that might be in this same vein: I want to cast trumpet
mouthpieces in silver, gold, and platinum. The cup area is not a problem I
have been told, but the extended tubing section that fits into the trumpet
has a thin wall and a delicate taper that is the problem. Is there a
creative technique or medium that would allow this to be cast?

Jack Schmidling wrote:

"Heinrich Butschal"


Anyway gas escapes will help to fill the form faster and so the form
could be filled before the fluid metal "freezes". However in that case
it does not seem to cause the problem....


Take a look at the below link to see the results of my experiments with
vents. You will note that the metal was able to rise 3" up a 1/8" hole but
would not fall down the side of the cup.

http://schmidling.netfirms.com/cup2.jpg

This looks complete different. A special remark is, that not only at the
right corner is a hole. This hole might have different causes.
More intersting is, that directly under the sprue in front (half-left)
the metal is flown in clouds and frozen.

This is more intersting to analyse.
The metal couldn´t be too cold, otherwise the sprue would not be so long.
If the metal does not fill the form beneath the sprue (or very slow)
there must be some Problems with the mixture of Your sand. Probably is
is too wet or contains too much oil. So gas can´t pass through and/or
oildamp is created by contact with the hot metal and restrict filling
the form.
I have seen such castings, from customers made in lost wax process, if
they didn´t burn out long enough, or in an oven without enough fresh air
(oxygen for oxydising the wax-carbon)
The carbon was sticking in the investment and so the investment was not
gas soluble.


Grüße,
Heinrich Butschal

--
www.juwelen.online-boerse.org
www.meister-atelier.de
www.schmuckfabrik.de
www.medico.butschal.de

"Jack Schmidling" wrote in message
...

http://schmidling.netfirms.com/cup2.jpg

I'm going round in circles here. That IS a cup with a stem. Ok.
Not enough metal and not enough air-vents. Simple. Did you try
rotating the cup in the sand? If you do this, you will thicken the
wall and this will help.

-SP-


js

"Abrasha"

There is a very good reason things are done a certain way FOR CENTURIES!

The best being there WAS no better way. Any person unwilling to accomodate
new processes, materials and ideas is simply a stubborn mule and calling me
a jackass does not change that.


Never
until now has an unmitigated jackass like Jack come around and demand to
be
instructed to fit his way.

I have never demanded anything. I have simply asked questions in the
sequence that they occured to me. Some folks chose to answer them, others
just to boast of their "mastery".

You want to make a chalice?

How many times to I have to tell you that I do not and never suggested that
I
wanted to make a chalice? You are worse than Bush repeating the same old
mantras.

My original question was about mounting stones on one. You have never
ceased since then to tell my about the idiocy of a jackass trying to make a
chalice.

After finishing that project, I attempted to make a CUP by using a bell
pattern and you continue to call me a jackass for trying to make a CHALICE.

If he were my apprentice, he would have been out on his ass months
ago. This would have been his loss, not mine.

I think not.

Peter, you are the healing master here, and all you are doing is
creating a monster, with an ability to create objects of exceptionally
**** poor
craftsmanship.

You remind me of the guy on the Orchid list who claims he could tell a
natural ruby from a synthetic just by emailing him a picture.

You haven't a clue of the quality of my work but more importantly, I
challenge
you to post pictures of the masterpieces you have made after investing the
same amount of time into your learning as I have.

He is a dabbler.

What is wrong with that.

" How do they say it in English? The man is a "Jack of all trades, a
master of none".

That is neither true nor necessarily bad. However, I again remind you that
I retired at age 40 so I seem to have at least been good enough at
something. Now I have the rest of my life to master something but I haven't
quite decided what yet so I DABBLE until I do or die.

BTW, show us some of your astrophotos. How many of those do you sell to
magazines and publishers? Do people rave about your cheese, beer, sausage,
gourmet cooking, gem cutting, woodworking skills? Probably not... you may
be a master of one but I really like my way better.

js


--
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.netfirms.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Gems, Sausage, http://schmidling.netfirms.com

"Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in message
...
On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 21:49:54 -0700, in õ Jack Schmidling
wrote:


Brass is very easy to cast, but not as
malleable and workable as silver.

Why is it easier to cast? It's about the same melting temp, no?

Brass melts a little lower, but is also more fluid when molten, chills
more
slowly so it freezes up more slowly, and shrinks in the mold less than
silver.
All of this combines to make it a lot easier to get a complete casting
than in
silver. That cheap indian made plated brass, such as the cup you've
already
got, is often sand cast in remarkably primative setups, and works just
fine.


Sold. I surrender. Where do I start?


Reading. Email me off list for more detailed suggestions. then you'll
need to
buy, or make, at least a couple steel tools. And then, when you're ready
to
start hammering, you're gonna get some exercise... It's actually rather
enjoyable, almost hypnotic, after you get the idea of how the metal is
handled.
But email me.

Peter

The innocent "where do I start" should tell you what a good
time this guy is having with you-all who are taking him seriously.
--
Marion

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 11:21:58 -0700, in ôõ Marion Margoshes
wrote:

The innocent "where do I start" should tell you what a good
time this guy is having with you-all who are taking him seriously.
--


Marion

Actually, he's having a good time exploring and fooling with metal. I know full
well what Jacks level of involvement is. He's got no intention of doing this as
a career or serious (economically) pursuit, but is having, from what i can tell,
a hell of a good time exploring it. And, while his learning may be proceeding
in a sequence that doesn't fit the usual order in which we teach people this
stuff, he's still having a fine time. his posts on the group, simply ask for
ideas when he feels he's missing something.

I'm reminded, a bit, of something John Paul Miller was known for. John, a well
known pioneer in the use of granulation, who's work is truely astounding, if
you're not familier with it, was known for his secrecy in his methods for a long
time. Though he was a teacher, he taught design at the Clevelant Institute of
Art, he wasn't actually employed to teach metals or jewelry, and in regards to
granulation, though he'd encourage anyone who wished to learn it, he never told
them exactly how he went about it. No precise instructions. His reasoning was
that he'd learned it by piecing together the method from available information
and a lot of experimentation, and his success was due in part to the deeper
understandings he'd formed by the research. He felt that anyone who really
wished to learn it, could similarly work it out, and would be the better for it.

Mr. Schmidling has some of that same desire to explore and work out the problems
as he encounters them. It may not be the way we might teach him, but his
explorations are demonstrating to him, in a way that verbal explanations could
never do, how metal behaves and whe things are done as they're done.

His "where do I start" statement only seems naive for those of us who already
know what in involved. It's a prefectly reasonable question from a beginner,
who's not yet even seen a raising stake or raising hammers, nor yet knows how
they're used. And, considering that the methods involved are taught to lots of
beginners with little more experience than jack has, often by giving them a disc
of metal, showing them how to mark it, and handing them a hammer, and saying
simply, "do this".... at least at the beginning, then his question is a fine
place to start.

I'd wonder if we were being toyed with if jack only posted questions. Instead,
we find he's been spending much effort and time actually melting, pouring, and
banging on metal. Good enough for me. He'll end up learning what he wants to
learn. Is it what we teachers might wish him to learn? Who knows. his choice.

Peter