Who has the right to know?

Richard Medway wrote:

Nicely put Ted...

SNIP

If our Jack tires to put himself in others shoes, instead of accusing
the members, with the experience he needs, of being trolls, perhaps a
little more respect/humility might be forthcoming, and people
mightactually want to help the poor lad with his troubles?
Nah!
Richard Medway in Los Angeles.(An expat Brit)


Nicely put Richard. I'm sure there'll be a rebuttal to your post from Jack
soon.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

Jack Schmidling wrote:

"Richard Medway"

I have only been doing this stuff as a hobby for a few years, but that
helps me to understand the more experenced craftsmen here, who may
have been metalsmiths for ten, twenty or thirty years, and why they
are so incredulous by our Jack's approach....

Isn't that commonly known as "hidebound"? There really is more than one way
to approach most any craft.

I find it incredulous, like many on this group, that a self-professed
multi-millionaire, with all the time in the world, able to buy a
complete jewellers supply house with all the wonderful equipment in
it, able to buy gold and platinum by the pound, hire the best teachers
available, is busy nickel and diming his way through the very basics,
with worse equipment than I have....

Again... a different approach. I built a faceting machine to learn how to
facet. I am building a roller mill to learn how to make wire. I don't want
a shop full of your idea of wonderful equipment. I want to understand the
process, make what I can and buy what I must... in that order. It has
nothing to do with money.... it's just my way.

" and blaming the elders on this group because it's difficult!

You can't be serious. I have only complained that instead of answering
simple questions, they prefer to brag about what great masters they are and
how stupid I am.

and people mightactually want to help the poor lad with his troubles?

Sorry to disappoint you but I have received a great deal of help from many
folks in this forum and isn't it strange that there is no such conflict on
the Orchid forum?

That's because Orchid is quite heavily censored by it's owner. Orchid is much
larger than r.c.j., with many more participants world wide. If it were not
censored as it is, you would receive many more postings of the kind you have
been getting here.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

Since I just found this group I have no opinion whatsoever on the
individuals who spend time here. I agree that those looking for knowlege
should respect those from whom they are requesting it. I also agree that
many people have learned "tricks of the trade" (whatever the trade) and
have a right to be proud of that and to keep it close as a personal
achievement. But - the sharing of knowlege is a shining light of humanity.
It binds us together as the hoarding of it does not (way philosophical huh?
sorry.) People learn best by sharing between individuals and the overall
body of knowlege grows more rapidly that way. And lets face it, not
everybody gets the most out of reading a book. I suppose the base question
to this discussion is if anybody is actually worried about damaging their
livelyhood by sharing information. My own opinion on people in general is
such that I don't believe more than one individual in in a hundred has the
commitment to put knowlege to the workbench and true craftsmen by nature are
statistically few and far between. Those that are bound by a shared
interest should support each other. The rest are just leaves on the wind.

GA

"Ted Frater" wrote in message
...
NE333RO wrote:
I woke this morning with the above title in my head.
So I asked myself the question?
why is it that this trade is accused of being reluctant to divulge its
knowhow? particularly on this newsgroup


I have never asked the question "who has the right to know." From my
standpoint everybody has the "right" to know. Nor have I ever seen (with
the
exception of pricing) a question asked, that was not answered because of
a
"right to know."
There are certainly many different personalities on here, just as
there are
in the real world. There might even be a few who think that way, but I
have yet
to see any evidence of that. On the other hand, there are many of us who
have
worked hard for the knowledge that we have, and do desire/require a
certain
level of respect from a questioner if they want the benefit of what we
know. We
all have different ideas about what form that respect should take.
A real world example would be someone walking up to me on the street
and
saying "Hey asshole, where's 54th avenue?" They would get no answer from
me (or
I suspect most people) and would get a rather large piece of my mind. I
would
have a similar response for someone that TOLD me I was going to give
them
directions. I have the answer, they don't, I expect some common
courtesy. I
also have little patience for those that get my directions and then say
"no,
that's not where it is." If they knew so much, why did they need to ask.
When it comes to jewelry questions, I have some things that I would
like
from a questioner, and some things that I require. Just like in the real
world.
I would like someone asking a question to do some research up front. I
don't
require it, but it's nice to know that they are serious enough to have
looked
into it first. It tells me that they are serious and I'm not wasting my
time.
What I REQUIRE from a questioner, is some common curtesy. Ask, don't
tell.
Listen don't talk. A bad attitude gets a response in kind.
Pricing is the one subject on here where questions generally are not
answered due to "need to know." As in every other business, my costs are
not
the business of those outside of the jewelry business. I choose not to
cut my
own throat by telling consumers what my markup/costs are.


and I include myself in this when other skills like those recently
mentioned here, for example beer, bread, sausage making etc, the
knowhow is freely available everywhere? for the asking.


What particular knowledge of the jewelry business is not out there,
easily
accessible, to the general public? With the exception of pricing, I can
think
of no deep dark knowledge, hidden from the public.


Herin lies I think , the answer.
Any hard won knowhow isnt for free, and I dont think ever will be.
The enquirer has to be seen to be making a real effort first before
being admitted to the mysteries of the craft. ( As described in medieval
apprenticship indentures)
I am bound by this tradition out of respect for all the smiths that have
gone before me, and whose knowhow Ive learned in the same way as they
did.
What do you all think?


I know of no "mysteries of the craft," and don't feel bound by any
tradition. I do, however, expect a certain amount of curtesy from
somebody that
want's to benefit from a pool of experience that I have worked long and
hard to
obtain. Seems like a cheap price to me.
Hi All,
I suppose as usual Im thinking from my own standpoint.
where you say you know of no knowledge thats not easily available, I
guess your right when it applies to the work of a jeweller. Yes just
about everything you need to know is out there.
however much as I appreciate the work of jewellers in the true sense
of the word, My work has mainly been involved in wrought work on a larger
scale
.
In this field I certainly have techniques that are not generally
available to the metal smith and in certain circumstances have never
been used before.
I do consider these techniques to be valuable in the commercial sense
and only my closest relatives know of them. For example one of my
product uses titanium 1/4in thick is cold forged into bowls and
dishes. How its done is commercially very valuable.and therefore not
disclosed in any way to the buyer. Or anyone else for that matter.
Also In another product line ive made over many years how I achieve the
results is not known. This involved the fusion of stainless steel in a
particular way to solve a bracelet design problem. Strangely a design
for the "Dark ages" period I was interpreting .
As of now theres no one to follow on with my workshop and techniques,
tho my son just 21 knows just about everything ive done.
Thank you everyone for some very enlightening comments.
Lets keep on metal working.
Regards Ted Frater

Greyangel wrote:
Since I just found this group I have no opinion whatsoever on the
individuals who spend time here. I agree that those looking for knowlege
should respect those from whom they are requesting it. I also agree that
many people have learned "tricks of the trade" (whatever the trade) and
have a right to be proud of that and to keep it close as a personal
achievement. But - the sharing of knowlege is a shining light of humanity.
It binds us together as the hoarding of it does not (way philosophical huh?
sorry.) People learn best by sharing between individuals and the overall
body of knowlege grows more rapidly that way. And lets face it, not
everybody gets the most out of reading a book. I suppose the base question
to this discussion is if anybody is actually worried about damaging their
livelyhood by sharing information. My own opinion on people in general is
such that I don't believe more than one individual in in a hundred has the
commitment to put knowlege to the workbench and true craftsmen by nature are
statistically few and far between. Those that are bound by a shared
interest should support each other. The rest are just leaves on the wind.

GA

"Ted Frater" wrote in message
...

NE333RO wrote:

I woke this morning with the above title in my head.
So I asked myself the question?
why is it that this trade is accused of being reluctant to divulge its
knowhow? particularly on this newsgroup


I have never asked the question "who has the right to know." From my
standpoint everybody has the "right" to know. Nor have I ever seen (with

the

exception of pricing) a question asked, that was not answered because of

a

"right to know."
There are certainly many different personalities on here, just as

there are

in the real world. There might even be a few who think that way, but I

have yet

to see any evidence of that. On the other hand, there are many of us who

have

worked hard for the knowledge that we have, and do desire/require a

certain

level of respect from a questioner if they want the benefit of what we

know. We

all have different ideas about what form that respect should take.
A real world example would be someone walking up to me on the street

and

saying "Hey asshole, where's 54th avenue?" They would get no answer from

me (or

I suspect most people) and would get a rather large piece of my mind. I

would

have a similar response for someone that TOLD me I was going to give

them

directions. I have the answer, they don't, I expect some common

courtesy. I

also have little patience for those that get my directions and then say

"no,

that's not where it is." If they knew so much, why did they need to ask.
When it comes to jewelry questions, I have some things that I would

like

from a questioner, and some things that I require. Just like in the real

world.

I would like someone asking a question to do some research up front. I

don't

require it, but it's nice to know that they are serious enough to have

looked

into it first. It tells me that they are serious and I'm not wasting my

time.

What I REQUIRE from a questioner, is some common curtesy. Ask, don't

tell.

Listen don't talk. A bad attitude gets a response in kind.
Pricing is the one subject on here where questions generally are not
answered due to "need to know." As in every other business, my costs are

not

the business of those outside of the jewelry business. I choose not to

cut my

own throat by telling consumers what my markup/costs are.



and I include myself in this when other skills like those recently
mentioned here, for example beer, bread, sausage making etc, the
knowhow is freely available everywhere? for the asking.


What particular knowledge of the jewelry business is not out there,

easily

accessible, to the general public? With the exception of pricing, I can

think

of no deep dark knowledge, hidden from the public.



Herin lies I think , the answer.
Any hard won knowhow isnt for free, and I dont think ever will be.
The enquirer has to be seen to be making a real effort first before
being admitted to the mysteries of the craft. ( As described in medieval
apprenticship indentures)
I am bound by this tradition out of respect for all the smiths that have
gone before me, and whose knowhow Ive learned in the same way as they

did.

What do you all think?


I know of no "mysteries of the craft," and don't feel bound by any
tradition. I do, however, expect a certain amount of curtesy from

somebody that

want's to benefit from a pool of experience that I have worked long and

hard to

obtain. Seems like a cheap price to me.

Hi All,
I suppose as usual Im thinking from my own standpoint.
where you say you know of no knowledge thats not easily available, I
guess your right when it applies to the work of a jeweller. Yes just
about everything you need to know is out there.
however much as I appreciate the work of jewellers in the true sense
of the word, My work has mainly been involved in wrought work on a larger
scale
.
In this field I certainly have techniques that are not generally
available to the metal smith and in certain circumstances have never
been used before.
I do consider these techniques to be valuable in the commercial sense
and only my closest relatives know of them. For example one of my
product uses titanium 1/4in thick is cold forged into bowls and
dishes. How its done is commercially very valuable.and therefore not
disclosed in any way to the buyer. Or anyone else for that matter.
Also In another product line ive made over many years how I achieve the
results is not known. This involved the fusion of stainless steel in a
particular way to solve a bracelet design problem. Strangely a design
for the "Dark ages" period I was interpreting .
As of now theres no one to follow on with my workshop and techniques,
tho my son just 21 knows just about everything ive done.
Thank you everyone for some very enlightening comments.
Lets keep on metal working.
Regards Ted Frater




Hi GA,
Well, the past has caught up with me!
thanks for your comments, as I was the individual that wrote that little
piece, that turned out to be somewhat controvertial.
no I have no quarrel with you over the sharing of knowledge on a
general level, for example helping say Africans to find and use water in
a clean way, or helping other aspiring metal smiths to get started.
what I was really referring to was the giving away of technical
knowledge that is commercially valuable, that took a long time (= money)
to develop .
If this became freely available say to an opportunist big jewellery
manufacturer who would mass produce and market through his own outlets,
the original developer without any intelectual rights to his idea would
certainly not be rewarded for his time and ingenuity..
That unfortunately is the real world we live in where money ie profit
becomes the prime mover in big organisations. they know that the little
man hasnt a chance of achieving justice against the big man.
It is this category of knowlege that the right to know does not apply.
hope this helps
Ted Frater
Dorset UK,

I understand your point. Where innovation is concerned I see nothing wrong
with keeping it close. Kind of said that in the last post. I'm was
referring more to established practices and technical knowledge. These
aren't the kind of thing that a large company would be ignorant of but the
hobbiest may need to know in order to be successful. After that personal
drive and creativity can find their own course.

GA


"Ted Frater" wrote in message
...
Greyangel wrote:
Since I just found this group I have no opinion whatsoever on the
individuals who spend time here. I agree that those looking for
knowlege
should respect those from whom they are requesting it. I also agree
that
many people have learned "tricks of the trade" (whatever the trade) and
have a right to be proud of that and to keep it close as a personal
achievement. But - the sharing of knowlege is a shining light of
humanity.
It binds us together as the hoarding of it does not (way philosophical
huh?
sorry.) People learn best by sharing between individuals and the
overall
body of knowlege grows more rapidly that way. And lets face it, not
everybody gets the most out of reading a book. I suppose the base
question
to this discussion is if anybody is actually worried about damaging
their
livelyhood by sharing information. My own opinion on people in general
is
such that I don't believe more than one individual in in a hundred has
the
commitment to put knowlege to the workbench and true craftsmen by nature
are
statistically few and far between. Those that are bound by a shared
interest should support each other. The rest are just leaves on the
wind.

GA

"Ted Frater" wrote in message
...

NE333RO wrote:

I woke this morning with the above title in my head.
So I asked myself the question?
why is it that this trade is accused of being reluctant to divulge
its
knowhow? particularly on this newsgroup


I have never asked the question "who has the right to know." From
my
standpoint everybody has the "right" to know. Nor have I ever seen
(with

the

exception of pricing) a question asked, that was not answered because
of

a

"right to know."
There are certainly many different personalities on here, just as

there are

in the real world. There might even be a few who think that way, but I

have yet

to see any evidence of that. On the other hand, there are many of us
who

have

worked hard for the knowledge that we have, and do desire/require a

certain

level of respect from a questioner if they want the benefit of what we

know. We

all have different ideas about what form that respect should take.
A real world example would be someone walking up to me on the
street

and

saying "Hey asshole, where's 54th avenue?" They would get no answer
from

me (or

I suspect most people) and would get a rather large piece of my mind. I

would

have a similar response for someone that TOLD me I was going to give

them

directions. I have the answer, they don't, I expect some common

courtesy. I

also have little patience for those that get my directions and then say

"no,

that's not where it is." If they knew so much, why did they need to
ask.
When it comes to jewelry questions, I have some things that I would

like

from a questioner, and some things that I require. Just like in the
real

world.

I would like someone asking a question to do some research up front. I

don't

require it, but it's nice to know that they are serious enough to have

looked

into it first. It tells me that they are serious and I'm not wasting my

time.

What I REQUIRE from a questioner, is some common curtesy. Ask, don't

tell.

Listen don't talk. A bad attitude gets a response in kind.
Pricing is the one subject on here where questions generally are
not
answered due to "need to know." As in every other business, my costs
are

not

the business of those outside of the jewelry business. I choose not to

cut my

own throat by telling consumers what my markup/costs are.



and I include myself in this when other skills like those recently
mentioned here, for example beer, bread, sausage making etc, the
knowhow is freely available everywhere? for the asking.


What particular knowledge of the jewelry business is not out there,

easily

accessible, to the general public? With the exception of pricing, I can

think

of no deep dark knowledge, hidden from the public.



Herin lies I think , the answer.
Any hard won knowhow isnt for free, and I dont think ever will be.
The enquirer has to be seen to be making a real effort first before
being admitted to the mysteries of the craft. ( As described in
medieval
apprenticship indentures)
I am bound by this tradition out of respect for all the smiths that
have
gone before me, and whose knowhow Ive learned in the same way as they

did.

What do you all think?


I know of no "mysteries of the craft," and don't feel bound by any
tradition. I do, however, expect a certain amount of curtesy from

somebody that

want's to benefit from a pool of experience that I have worked long and

hard to

obtain. Seems like a cheap price to me.

Hi All,
I suppose as usual Im thinking from my own standpoint.
where you say you know of no knowledge thats not easily available, I
guess your right when it applies to the work of a jeweller. Yes just
about everything you need to know is out there.
however much as I appreciate the work of jewellers in the true sense
of the word, My work has mainly been involved in wrought work on a
larger
scale
.
In this field I certainly have techniques that are not generally
available to the metal smith and in certain circumstances have never
been used before.
I do consider these techniques to be valuable in the commercial sense
and only my closest relatives know of them. For example one of my
product uses titanium 1/4in thick is cold forged into bowls and
dishes. How its done is commercially very valuable.and therefore not
disclosed in any way to the buyer. Or anyone else for that matter.
Also In another product line ive made over many years how I achieve the
results is not known. This involved the fusion of stainless steel in a
particular way to solve a bracelet design problem. Strangely a design
for the "Dark ages" period I was interpreting .
As of now theres no one to follow on with my workshop and techniques,
tho my son just 21 knows just about everything ive done.
Thank you everyone for some very enlightening comments.
Lets keep on metal working.
Regards Ted Frater




Hi GA,
Well, the past has caught up with me!
thanks for your comments, as I was the individual that wrote that little
piece, that turned out to be somewhat controvertial.
no I have no quarrel with you over the sharing of knowledge on a
general level, for example helping say Africans to find and use water in
a clean way, or helping other aspiring metal smiths to get started.
what I was really referring to was the giving away of technical
knowledge that is commercially valuable, that took a long time (= money)
to develop .
If this became freely available say to an opportunist big jewellery
manufacturer who would mass produce and market through his own outlets,
the original developer without any intelectual rights to his idea would
certainly not be rewarded for his time and ingenuity..
That unfortunately is the real world we live in where money ie profit
becomes the prime mover in big organisations. they know that the little
man hasnt a chance of achieving justice against the big man.
It is this category of knowlege that the right to know does not apply.
hope this helps
Ted Frater
Dorset UK,