Yoohoo, Mommies!

"Karen C in California" wrote in message
...
lucretia borgia wrote:

leave the insult lie here for all us
seniors that you clearly feel we are pretty damn stupid in our dotage.



I never said "all seniors are stupid". I said that in my experience, the
majority of those I know and on my parents' block are not online and have
no interest in going online.

The statistics bear me out that 4/5 are not online. Kudos to those who
are, but that doesn't change the fact that if 22% of seniors are online,
78% are not, and that 78% is a pretty sizeable majority.

I'm sorry if you feel that the Times and the authors of that study think
that seniors who are not online are stupid. I personally think the issue
is not stupidity but lack of interest, or, in my mother's words "I don't
have time to waste playing on the computer" because she has too many other
things to do in real life.

My elderly friend who was given a computer and never used it was extremely
active, performing with local musical groups, attending classes,
volunteering with the library, putting out newsletters and publicity for
his musical groups ... he could get the newsletter out on his manual
typewriter without the learning curve required to do it on the computer,
which to him seemed more efficient, and therefore, no real reason to use
the computer. His elderly friends didn't e-mail, no grandkids to e-mail,
not the type to sit around and just surf the Net to fill empty hours,
because he didn't have any empty hours. Just why exactly do you think
someone who is out of the house from 10 AM to 10 PM every single day,
running from meeting to meeting, needs the internet in order to socialize?

--
Karen C - California
Editor/Proofreader www.IntlProofingConsortium.com


Okay--I give up. I admit defeat and I will throw in the towel. You win!!!

Here's my concession speech. More power to you and your boring family and
friends.

I'm quite sure if you try you'll find someone else to use as an example of
older people who know nothing except how to be barefoot and pregnant or
sitting on the couch with a beer and a football game on TV and are happy to
stay home and/or drive to a doctors office.


Your quotation saying: in my mother's words "I don't have time to waste
playing on the computer" because she has too
many other things to do in real life." is for me over the top and
definitely insulting. Because I (and most of my friends) choose to spend
our time learning and doing and accomplishing seems to be something your
mother either doesn't want to do or is incapable of doing and if she's
happy in her narrow world, good for her. I guess I came from a different
world where gardening and cooking and cleaning isn't enough.

So, there's no way to convince you my way is right or for you to convince me
that my way is wrong.

Incidentally, that article was dated 2004. It's now 4 years later and if
you have enough time on your hands to keep looking find me proper statistics
from 2008. I would love to see them.

Lucille

Lucille wrote:

There's also the fact that I can't imagine how spending time driving someone
to a doctors appointment can possibly take up that much time.


I can tell you there are plenty of times that I call Mom and she says
"we're on our way to the doctor, I'll call you when we get home" and
it's 3-4 hours before they get home. You know Long Island traffic ...
it takes them quite a while to get the 20-25 miles to the specialist,
then they have to wait for the doctor (who is sometimes caught in the
same traffic travelling between her hospital visits and her two offices,
and therefore is often running well behind), easily 3-4 hours out of
mom's day every time dad goes there, which is 1-2 times a week to that
doctor alone.

In my aunt's case, between her DH's appointments/therapy and her own
therapy sessions, it's at least two hours out of every single day, and
sometimes the whole day when they've got to drive down to the VA (25
miles in California traffic) and wait and wait and wait, first for the
doctor and then wait some more for the pharmacy.


activities that will keep them busy and active with more intellectual
pursuits and/or less housefrau activities

My parents happen to like gardening; unlike Sheena, they don't go out to
play bridge with friends, they stay home and play with their plants.
It's not a hausfrau task, it's a hobby. They've always done it; it's
not just something they took up to fill empty hours in retirement. It's
of more interest to them than surfing the net, which they see as an idle
activity.

If they want intellectual stimulation, they have a houseful of
newspapers, magazines, books, plus library cards. They also go to group
meetings and attend educational lectures/concerts, offer companionship
to widowed friends, etc.

Insulting them because they choose to spend their time differently than
you do? That's right up there with a co-worker who spent $1000+ a year
going to the movies insulting me because I "wasted" $200 a year at the
LNS because stitching was something she had no interest in doing.

The fact is, my parents only have 24 hours in a day, and already had
them filled with other obligations and interests before the internet
came along. They see no reason to go online; it's not worth dropping
some other hobby to make time for. Especially when they've already had
to spend less time on enjoyable things to add all the medical stuff to
their schedule.

It has nothing to do with anyone being stupid, just with some people
being to stubborn to accept that not everyone shares their interests,
and that just because one is old does not mean that one needs the
internet to fill their time. Not using a computer doesn't mean you're
stupid, only that you've got better things to do with your time.


--
Karen C - California
Editor/Proofreader www.IntlProofingConsortium.com

Finished 7/27/08 - MLI Christmas Visit

WIP: Oriental Kimono (Janlynn), MLI The Teacher (gift to
the library), Bethany Angel (Marbek)
Retrieved from UFO pile: Marbek's Snow Angel, MLI Farmers Market

CFSfacts -- where we give you the facts and dispel the myths
Myths, with research cites: http://www.aacfs.org/images/pdfs/myths.pdf
Newest research blog: http://journals.aol.com/kmc528/Lifeasweknowit/

lucretia borgia wrote:
On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 14:00:19 -0400, "Lucille" lzoltynospam@now at
comcast..net opined:

Your data intrigued me because it's so opposite what I know from my friends
and neighbors that looked a bit further and came up with this article from
The New York Times. It certainly tells another story, doesn't it.

http://tiny.cc/UQnvz

This is more what I know.

Lucille

Good link, it's sure more the way I know seniors, I particularly liked

"the ranks of Americans over 65 who use the Internet have jumped by 47
percent since 2000, making them the fastest-growing group to embrace
the online world. "

47% is a VERY convincing quantity.

How convincing depends on what quantity you are taking 47% of! 47% of a
small number still isn't very much! And if you look at the article,
you'll see that *after* that increase, the percentage of users in the
age group is about 22%! I didn't see any cite at to the source of those
figures (I didn't have time) but they are more or less in line with the
recent ones from Canada I posted.

Cheryl

lucretia borgia wrote:


I recently helped a Newf from St. John's who now lives here with her
daughter, set up the lap top her son sent her. She is undaunted and
has been a speedy learner, she is riding the wave lol


I know people (of all ages, but especially including the elderly) who
use computers and those who don't. Some who learn fast and some who are
a bit slower.

Cheryl

Lucille wrote:
Since you quoted your statistic and I think it's not 100% accurate, here's
another article that shows another senior use of computers.




Wasn't my statistic. You're the one who provided the NYT article that
absolutely backed up what I've been saying based on personal
observation, that 4/5 of my relatives and 4/5 of my parents neighbors
are not online, which is precisely in line with the statistic that you
provided, that 78% of seniors (i.e., roughly 4/5) are not online.

Sorry you don't like your own statistic now that you've realized that it
supports my argument that a minority of only 1-in-5 seniors are online,
and not, as you'd like it to say, that a tiny minority of holdouts are
not online.

--
Karen C - California
Editor/Proofreader www.IntlProofingConsortium.com

Finished 7/27/08 - MLI Christmas Visit

WIP: Oriental Kimono (Janlynn), MLI The Teacher (gift to
the library), Bethany Angel (Marbek)
Retrieved from UFO pile: Marbek's Snow Angel, MLI Farmers Market

CFSfacts -- where we give you the facts and dispel the myths
Myths, with research cites: http://www.aacfs.org/images/pdfs/myths.pdf
Newest research blog: http://journals.aol.com/kmc528/Lifeasweknowit/

lucretia borgia wrote:
On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 12:00:43 -0700, Karen C in California
opined:
Actually, it tells exactly the story I've experienced:
"Despite the increases, this age group still has a long way to go. Only
22 percent of Americans over 65 go online, the study shows, compared
with 75 percent of those ages 30 to 49."


Well let's just leave the subject as you not understanding that your
relatives are a minority and leave the insult lie here for all us
seniors that you clearly feel we are pretty damn stupid in our dotage.
Better wake up and smell the roses ! I see you still feel, even at
your oh so clever age, you need to stay with aohell because god knows
what fate would befall you if you handled the internet first hand. Bah
! I have no more to say now, you are wrong and I am going by first
hand experience.

You are going by anecdotal evidence. Both the US and the Canadian
statistics that were posted show clearly that a majority of over
65-year-olds in the respective countries do not use computers. That's
not to say that there are not groups of 65+ year olds for which the
computer use is much higher - but there must be enough groups in which
it is much lower to bring the overall usage down to the 20-30% range.

I also do not think it is insulting to state facts - or an accusation of
stupidity to note that some people don't use computers. People don't use
computers for a whole range of reasons.

Cheryl

Lucille wrote:

Here's my concession speech. More power to you and your boring family and
friends.


They're not boring. They're out and about and doing things, not sitting
home in front of a computer wishing for companionship. They've got real
people to talk to, they don't need to rely on internet friends.

Like with my elderly friend who never learned to use the computer he was
given, if you don't catch them before 10 AM, good luck, they could be
anywhere within 25 miles.

Pot calling the kettle black here (and I readily admit that), I note
that you have been on the computer arguing with me since 3 hours ago,
which means that you're home rather than out doing something active.
I'm on the computer arguing with you because I called Mom and she wasn't
home for me to talk to, and I'm also home sitting on my butt in front of
the computer. They don't have a doctor appointment today (that I know
of), so here's the map -- you head to points east (that mall and the
restaurant near it), I'll head to points west (the other mall and the
other restaurant), and let's see if we can figure out where they got off
to, other than sitting home like us "wasting time playing on the computer".


Your quotation saying: in my mother's words "I don't have time to waste
playing on the computer" because she has too
many other things to do in real life." is for me over the top and
definitely insulting.



Why? Because she goes out to concerts and lectures, instead of sitting
home? Because she chooses to play in the garden that's been her pride
and joy for 50 years instead of sitting in the living room stitching?

Now you're making a value judgment that the things she does IRL are less
interesting than the things you do because she doesn't do what you do.
I never said she spent the whole day doing housework; you assumed she's
only into "hausfrau activities" (your words). She prefers gardening to
playing bridge or stitching. It's a more active activity, and I'm glad
at her age she's healthy enough to do that much physical activity (more
than I can do).


--
Karen C - California
Editor/Proofreader www.IntlProofingConsortium.com

Finished 7/27/08 - MLI Christmas Visit

WIP: Oriental Kimono (Janlynn), MLI The Teacher (gift to
the library), Bethany Angel (Marbek)
Retrieved from UFO pile: Marbek's Snow Angel, MLI Farmers Market

CFSfacts -- where we give you the facts and dispel the myths
Myths, with research cites: http://www.aacfs.org/images/pdfs/myths.pdf
Newest research blog: http://journals.aol.com/kmc528/Lifeasweknowit/

"Karen C in California" wrote in message
...
Lucille wrote:

Here's my concession speech. More power to you and your boring family
and friends.


They're not boring. They're out and about and doing things, not sitting
home in front of a computer wishing for companionship. They've got real
people to talk to, they don't need to rely on internet friends.

Like with my elderly friend who never learned to use the computer he was
given, if you don't catch them before 10 AM, good luck, they could be
anywhere within 25 miles.

Pot calling the kettle black here (and I readily admit that), I note that
you have been on the computer arguing with me since 3 hours ago, which
means that you're home rather than out doing something active.

I'll tell you what Karen--you come here and blow the storm and tornadoes
we're prepared for away with your hot air and I'll go out and do something
active in the heat, humidity, wind and pouring rain we're having. I'm sure
the cops will love that I'm on the road when people need to get home and get
ready.

Please Karen, just go away.

"Cheryl P." wrote in message
...
lucretia borgia wrote:
On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 12:00:43 -0700, Karen C in California
opined:
Actually, it tells exactly the story I've experienced:
"Despite the increases, this age group still has a long way to go. Only
22 percent of Americans over 65 go online, the study shows, compared
with 75 percent of those ages 30 to 49."


Well let's just leave the subject as you not understanding that your
relatives are a minority and leave the insult lie here for all us
seniors that you clearly feel we are pretty damn stupid in our dotage.
Better wake up and smell the roses ! I see you still feel, even at
your oh so clever age, you need to stay with aohell because god knows
what fate would befall you if you handled the internet first hand. Bah
! I have no more to say now, you are wrong and I am going by first
hand experience.

You are going by anecdotal evidence. Both the US and the Canadian
statistics that were posted show clearly that a majority of over
65-year-olds in the respective countries do not use computers. That's not
to say that there are not groups of 65+ year olds for which the computer
use is much higher - but there must be enough groups in which it is much
lower to bring the overall usage down to the 20-30% range.

I also do not think it is insulting to state facts - or an accusation of
stupidity to note that some people don't use computers. People don't use
computers for a whole range of reasons.

Cheryl


I have yet to see any statistical table that actually says something
specific. Show me!

And I don't want to see something like what I posted that's an abstract. I
want to see a properly done study, by a really good source. Perhaps one of
our universities would be interested in doing a proper study?

Cheryl P. wrote:

lucretia borgia wrote:


I recently helped a Newf from St. John's who now lives here with her
daughter, set up the lap top her son sent her. She is undaunted and
has been a speedy learner, she is riding the wave lol



I know people (of all ages, but especially including the elderly) who
use computers and those who don't. Some who learn fast and some who are
a bit slower.

Cheryl



And some who have interest in learning how to do something and some who
have no interest in it. That someone has no interest in doing something
doesn't mean they're stupid, just that they don't see the point in
surviving the learning curve for something that they don't picture
themselves needing to do in the future.

I can think back to when I was insulted BECAUSE I was spending time
learning to use a computer. What a geeky thing to waste time on. Now
the pendulum has swung, and it's those who are not using computers who
get insulted as being "too stupid" when, in fact, they are extremely
intelligent people who simply don't see the relevance to their own lives
because they are getting along just fine without it. I have yet to come
up with any convincing argument for WHY they need to spend time on the
computer; if Mom wants to know something, she looks it up in a book.
Instead of reading a two-paragraph Wikipedia, she'll read a 300-page
book and learn more about it than I know from my web-surfing.

I've never learned to do surgery, which doesn't mean that I'm "too
stupid to learn" -- I'm sure my embroidery skills and years of doing
jigsaw puzzles would make me a whiz at putting the pieces back together
-- it's just something that I'm not interested in spending 10 years in
school to learn how to do something that I have no desire to pursue as a
profession. Yeah, some day when I'm home alone and the meat cleaver
attacks my finger it might be nice to know how to stitch my own wound
shut, but it's not something that I "need" to know how to do on a daily
basis, so I haven't taken the time to study it.

Just because my parents and their friends do other things with their
lives instead of e-mailing their non-existent grandchildren doesn't make
them stupid ... just different from you.

And the statistics Lucille provided that only 22% of seniors are online
show exactly who is the minority -- the ladies here, not the people in
my parents' neighborhood. So, take your self-righteous "what I do
always puts me in the majority, and those who don't do what I do are
always in the minority", and listen to the statistics that prove who's
really the minority.


--
Karen C - California
Editor/Proofreader www.IntlProofingConsortium.com

Finished 7/27/08 - MLI Christmas Visit

WIP: Oriental Kimono (Janlynn), MLI The Teacher (gift to
the library), Bethany Angel (Marbek)
Retrieved from UFO pile: Marbek's Snow Angel, MLI Farmers Market

CFSfacts -- where we give you the facts and dispel the myths
Myths, with research cites: http://www.aacfs.org/images/pdfs/myths.pdf
Newest research blog: http://journals.aol.com/kmc528/Lifeasweknowit/