Mirjam - how are you?

"Joyce" wrote
Please tell me, how is the name "Japs" more insulting than "Brits"? I
don't mind being called a Brit, and I wouldn't have thought a Japanese
person would object to being called a Jap.

Joyce in RSA.

Japanese people in this country do object most strongly to being called
Japs. It has always been used in a derogatory sense. I assumed that Jim,
identifying with the British (in his earlier post about WWII, he talked
about "we"), can decide whether Brit is derogatory, although it is not a
term I would use.

Dawne

"Dawne Peterson" ) writes:
"F.James Cripwell" wrote

I am not sure the human race has moved on. Take the example of the UK in
WWII. Dresden. In Burma, Gen. Slim chose the most malaria infected parts
of the jungle to fight in, as the Brits has excellent anti-malaria
medicine, and the Japs didn't. (snip)J

I hope there was a spelling mistake in this message. The people of Japan
are called, in English, Japanese.

Dawne

No spelling mistake. In WWII, the Germans were the Bosch, the Italians
were the Eyeties, and the Japanese were the Japs. Jim.

"F.James Cripwell" wrote
I hope there was a spelling mistake in this message. The people of
Japan
are called, in English, Japanese.

Dawne

No spelling mistake. In WWII, the Germans were the Bosch, the Italians
were the Eyeties, and the Japanese were the Japs. Jim.

And that was.....how many years ago?? There were lots of belittling names
for people at various times in history (many of them were in my Dad's
vocabulary). Some of us try not to perpetuate them.

Dawne

On 1/4/09 2:52 PM, " wrote:

On Jan 4, 9:38*am, ellice wrote:
On 1/1/09 3:54 PM, " wrote:



On Jan 1, 8:51*am, ellice wrote:
On 12/31/08 6:37 PM, *"Pat P" wrote:

wrote in message
...


Lucretia

http://www.honestreporting.com/a/15seconds.asp

I haven`t seen you ever protest the Ongoing Rockets Shooting at
civilians , children , hospitals etc on our side of the border ,
http://www.honestreporting.com/a/15seconds.asp

Look at this and ask yourself How long YOU would have waited to stop
it ,
Please notice that the Egyptian Government and the Palestinian
President told the Hamas that they are to be balmaed because they were
warned warned and warned to stop sending rockets over Israel ,
mirjam

On the other hand, what shocks most of us is the totally OTT response by
Israel. *If two or three people in a town *anywhere in the world get
killed
the normal reaction isn`t to go and kill more than 300 indiscriminately!

All that`s going to do is produce even more terrorism and suicide bombings
all over the world (Like we had recently in Mumbai).

Pat

OTOH, most people in the world don't have such a huge set of groups set on
annihilating them. *I think that sadly, minimal responses have proven to be
insignificant in effectiveness.

And the overwhelming responses have somehow been more effective? *I
don't think so: they haven't stopped the attacks and they've ruined
Israel's reputation among many who would otherwise have been
supporters.

Elizabeth

It's a sad situation regardless. *If you respond in kind, it doesn't matter.
If you are peaceful, well, what did that get? *So, there isa school of
thought that supports the hefty response - not saying it's my idea
personally. *

And there's a school of thought that says that if a less powerful
opponent can get a more powerful opponent to respond with too much
force, the less powerful opponent wins: in terms of public opinion, in
terms of recruiting more fighters, in terms of moral superiority
(although that's kind of moot in warfare). "The guerrilla wins unless
he loses."

I never said that Israel shouldn't respond, I'm just not sure that OTT
responses have their desired effects on any level.

Elizabeth

I'm not sure about your definition for more powerful opponent - given the
relative sizes of population involved. The Muslim world is a huge
population, far greater than the Jewish one. Not at all implicating that
all Muslims follow the hard-core line of ridding the world of infidels.
But, this is an ages old conflict, and we sit on the outside looking in on
something horrid. I cannot say that I like the huge response, but I can
feel for the conundrum that faces Israel. No doubt the arguments are fierce
there as well.

Ellice

On 1/4/09 6:12 PM, "lucille" wrote:

"Jangchub" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 4 Jan 2009 11:47:09 -0800 (PST), wrote:

Um, hello, Jim? You will side with Mirjam in what? Calling me an
anti-Semite? What did I ever do to you? Please note that the
paragraph you quote is a diatribe against me, asking why she should
discuss Israeli policy with me, when I was not discussing it with her
in the first place. If you want to agree with Mirjam about Israeli
policy, that's fine, but please note that the paragraph you're
agreeing with proclaims that only those who live there have the right
to comment on what the Israeli government does, so that leave you
right out as well.

Elizabeth

This seems to be the attitude of many Israelis. I befriended an
elderly woman whose husband died. She in her 70s, her name is Avi,
from Israel, but here for many years. Though she lived in America for
fifty years she still couldn't write or read much English. Her
computer keyboard was Hebrew.

Anyway, we got into a discussion one day and I told her my mother was
Jewish and she said, "No she is not, unless you are born in Israel you
are not a true Jew." Huh? Yes, that was her attitude.

Seriousness aside, the women in my family on the Russian side always
declared they were Jews, but only because they got their nails done,
ate bagels with a shmear with nova and ate matzos!

Then there were the Great, Great Aunties who lived through camps with
tattoos who were also told they weren't real Jews. Feh.
Victoria

http://gotbodhicitta-wangmo.blogspot.com/
Updated daily when able.




I worked for an American Zionist Organization for years, mostly with Israeli
Doctors and Educators, and I even went to Israel for 6 weeks to work at a
convention and not one Israeli citizen ever said anything so outrageous or
hateful. As a matter of fact my husband had relatives who are sabras and
they certainly never thought that way. I would also like to know who in
their right mind would tell someone who lived through the camps that they
weren't Jewish. You seem to know an awful lot of intolerant and strange
people.


I'm with you on this, Lucille. I have extended family who are Israeli
(SIL's SIL is a sabra) and they're lovely people. At the same time, I've
some colleagues and friends that are Israeli, - some here, some there. I
will say that I often find a sort of abruptness with them - they are very
forthright in conversation (especially work discussions). I've certainly
smoothed over some arguments, or comments - but I think that brusqueness is
a result of how life is/was. But, I've never, ever heard such nonsense as
saying that you are not Jewish if you don't live in Israel. Perhaps this
woman meant that it is a duty to go to Israel. Who knows.

Just as an aside, my mom was a bookkeeper for Jewish Federation when my
parents married, and until I was born. I remember her taking me to visit
colleagues in the city when I was a little girl.

Zionism, versus your religion. Of course, Israel has its issues with the
Orthodox rabbinic council dictating so much. And here, you will find
similar attitudes about Judaic birthright from various practitioners - be
they Orthodox, Conservative, Reformed, Reconstructionist, Chasadim, etc.

Very bizarre.

Ellice

On 1/4/09 6:29 PM, "Jangchub" wrote:

On Sun, 4 Jan 2009 18:12:30 -0500, "lucille"
wrote:

I worked for an American Zionist Organization for years, mostly with Israeli
Doctors and Educators, and I even went to Israel for 6 weeks to work at a
convention and not one Israeli citizen ever said anything so outrageous or
hateful. As a matter of fact my husband had relatives who are sabras and
they certainly never thought that way. I would also like to know who in
their right mind would tell someone who lived through the camps that they
weren't Jewish. You seem to know an awful lot of intolerant and strange
people.


No, I don't know an awful lot of intolerant people. I know a lot of
people and this woman said these things to me. She may have been out
of her mind for all I know. She said reformed Jews are not really
Jews, nor are any Jews not born in Israel. She was a whacked out,
very old for her age (which is why I called her elderly) woman.

Well, there are a lot of Orthodox and Conserva-dox who believe that Reformed
Judaism isn't really Judaism. My SIL's mother actually said that to my
parents when they were discussing wedding locations for my DB. It was an
amazing act of hypocrisy - for people who didn't regularly attend synagogue,
or act charitably towards people. But, she'd been raised in a strict
conservative background, and made a big deal of family names. FWIW - my DB
was married at the reception place, but the Friday night they had the
pre-wedding celebration at synagogue, and on Saturday morning - in a very
strict Conservative synagogue - the funniest part - the rabbi was a relative
of my parent's close, close friends, and my parents had known him since he
was a boy. Pretty funny as the snooty mother of the bride was trying to give
my parents grief all along.

I actually have many lovely people in my life. I also believe you
when you say what you did above. It was an example of an extremist I
was giving. I don't know extremist Israeli people who believe in this
violence. It was an example.
Victoria

Well, while no doubt you do know many lovely people, this post read as if
this were a typical attitude, rather than an aberration.

Ellice

On Jan 5, 1:52*pm, ellice wrote:
On 1/4/09 2:52 PM, " wrote:



On Jan 4, 9:38*am, ellice wrote:
On 1/1/09 3:54 PM, " wrote:

On Jan 1, 8:51*am, ellice wrote:
On 12/31/08 6:37 PM, *"Pat P" wrote:

wrote in message
...

Lucretia

http://www.honestreporting.com/a/15seconds.asp

I haven`t seen you ever protest the Ongoing Rockets Shooting at
civilians , children , hospitals etc on our side of the border ,
http://www.honestreporting.com/a/15seconds.asp

Look at this and ask yourself How long YOU would have waited to stop
it ,
Please notice that the Egyptian Government and the Palestinian
President told the Hamas that they are to be balmaed because they were
warned warned and warned to stop sending rockets over Israel ,
mirjam

On the other hand, what shocks most of us is the totally OTT response by
Israel. *If two or three people in a town *anywhere in the world get
killed
the normal reaction isn`t to go and kill more than 300 indiscriminately!

All that`s going to do is produce even more terrorism and suicide bombings
all over the world (Like we had recently in Mumbai).

Pat

OTOH, most people in the world don't have such a huge set of groups set on
annihilating them. *I think that sadly, minimal responses have proven to be
insignificant in effectiveness.

And the overwhelming responses have somehow been more effective? *I
don't think so: they haven't stopped the attacks and they've ruined
Israel's reputation among many who would otherwise have been
supporters.

Elizabeth

It's a sad situation regardless. *If you respond in kind, it doesn't matter.
If you are peaceful, well, what did that get? *So, there isa school of
thought that supports the hefty response - not saying it's my idea
personally. *

And there's a school of thought that says that if a less powerful
opponent can get a more powerful opponent to respond with too much
force, the less powerful opponent wins: in terms of public opinion, in
terms of recruiting more fighters, in terms of moral superiority
(although that's kind of moot in warfare). *"The guerrilla wins unless
he loses."

I never said that Israel shouldn't respond, I'm just not sure that OTT
responses have their desired effects on any level.

Elizabeth

I'm not sure about your definition for more powerful opponent - given the
relative sizes of population involved. *The Muslim world is a huge
population, far greater than the Jewish one. *Not at all implicating that
all Muslims follow the hard-core line of ridding the world of infidels.
But, this is an ages old conflict, and we sit on the outside looking in on
something horrid. *I cannot say that I like the huge response, but I can
feel for the conundrum that faces Israel. *No doubt the arguments are fierce
there as well.

Let's not be extreme, Ellice. Israel isn't fighting with the whole
Muslim world. It isn't even fighting with the whole Arab Muslim
world. At the moment, it is fighting a tiny fraction of that world.
That aside, my definition of more powerful opponent is "militarily
more powerful" which Israel in the region is by most measures
including wars won.

Several people have said that this is an ages old conflict, but that's
not actually correct. Active conflicts between Jews and
Arabsprimarily date to after World War I, when the United Kingdom
failed to live up to the promises they made to Arab nationalists to
get them to help topple the Ottoman Empire, while encouraging European
Jews to settle the same lands.

Elizabeth

On Jan 5, 2:08*pm, ellice wrote:

Well, while no doubt you do know many lovely people, this post read as if
this were a typical attitude, rather than an aberration.

Just another data point: it didn't strike me that way. But perhaps it
was just so extreme that I knew it couldn't be typical - you can't
spend time in New York and not be enough with Jewish people to know
better.

Elizabeth

"ellice" wrote in message
...
On 1/4/09 6:12 PM, "lucille" wrote:

"Jangchub" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 4 Jan 2009 11:47:09 -0800 (PST), wrote:

Um, hello, Jim? You will side with Mirjam in what? Calling me an
anti-Semite? What did I ever do to you? Please note that the
paragraph you quote is a diatribe against me, asking why she should
discuss Israeli policy with me, when I was not discussing it with her
in the first place. If you want to agree with Mirjam about Israeli
policy, that's fine, but please note that the paragraph you're
agreeing with proclaims that only those who live there have the right
to comment on what the Israeli government does, so that leave you
right out as well.

Elizabeth

This seems to be the attitude of many Israelis. I befriended an
elderly woman whose husband died. She in her 70s, her name is Avi,
from Israel, but here for many years. Though she lived in America for
fifty years she still couldn't write or read much English. Her
computer keyboard was Hebrew.

Anyway, we got into a discussion one day and I told her my mother was
Jewish and she said, "No she is not, unless you are born in Israel you
are not a true Jew." Huh? Yes, that was her attitude.

Seriousness aside, the women in my family on the Russian side always
declared they were Jews, but only because they got their nails done,
ate bagels with a shmear with nova and ate matzos!

Then there were the Great, Great Aunties who lived through camps with
tattoos who were also told they weren't real Jews. Feh.
Victoria

http://gotbodhicitta-wangmo.blogspot.com/
Updated daily when able.




I worked for an American Zionist Organization for years, mostly with
Israeli
Doctors and Educators, and I even went to Israel for 6 weeks to work at a
convention and not one Israeli citizen ever said anything so outrageous
or
hateful. As a matter of fact my husband had relatives who are sabras
and
they certainly never thought that way. I would also like to know who in
their right mind would tell someone who lived through the camps that they
weren't Jewish. You seem to know an awful lot of intolerant and strange
people.


I'm with you on this, Lucille. I have extended family who are Israeli
(SIL's SIL is a sabra) and they're lovely people. At the same time, I've
some colleagues and friends that are Israeli, - some here, some there. I
will say that I often find a sort of abruptness with them - they are very
forthright in conversation (especially work discussions). I've certainly
smoothed over some arguments, or comments - but I think that brusqueness
is
a result of how life is/was. But, I've never, ever heard such nonsense as
saying that you are not Jewish if you don't live in Israel. Perhaps this
woman meant that it is a duty to go to Israel. Who knows.

Just as an aside, my mom was a bookkeeper for Jewish Federation when my
parents married, and until I was born. I remember her taking me to visit
colleagues in the city when I was a little girl.

Zionism, versus your religion. Of course, Israel has its issues with the
Orthodox rabbinic council dictating so much. And here, you will find
similar attitudes about Judaic birthright from various practitioners - be
they Orthodox, Conservative, Reformed, Reconstructionist, Chasadim, etc.

Very bizarre.

Ellice

I don't disagree with you and what you're saying. I was responding to the
outrageous story by someone who should know better then to repeat such
nonsense.

I know I'm going to get a lot of people annoyed but I must say that because
I had a lot of experience with a genetic disease that affects only Jewish
people and according to a genetic study done by Johns Hopkins University
this genetic defect may be traced back all the way to the original twelve
tribes, I believe that Jewish may be a race and not just a religion.

It's very difficult to prove anything because records for Jewish people who
never had a permanent home until Israel became a state, are nearly
impossible to trace back more then a couple of generations.

Lucille

) writes:
(snip)
Several people have said that this is an ages old conflict, but that's
not actually correct. Active conflicts between Jews and
Arabsprimarily date to after World War I, when the United Kingdom
failed to live up to the promises they made to Arab nationalists to
get them to help topple the Ottoman Empire, while encouraging European
Jews to settle the same lands.

Elizabeth

If you are talking actual fighting you have a point. But one of the main
issues between the Israelis and the Palistinians is who owns the real
estate. That argument goes back over 2000 years.