Took a class

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 07:01:21 GMT in rec.crafts.jewelry "Peter W..
Rowe," , pulled fingers out of his
butt and stuck 'em in his mouth and said gaaawwooommoossaaaraadaa:
On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 22:56:54 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry Frosty
wrote:
snip

This probably isn't the right thread to post this to, but it's as good
as any I guess.

there isn't another better place. Especially considering how often I freely let
Hanuman (that list's owner) post notices for it here, or how often I too refer
people to it...

There's a list called Orchid that you've simply GOT to join!
I've been a-jewelin' for 30 years and I learn stuff on there every
day. There are some really talented people and sometimes they even
post their URL's so you can see their stuff.

I met a guy on there who is trying to launch a business selling this
magical stuff I like to call Brown's Snake Oil (He calls it
BrownPolymer because either his name is Brown or he has it tested as
Brown University or both, but it's not brown but rather sorta tan...)
Anyway it's an unbelievable substance that I put on my sawblades and
it helps me cut straighter and easier and I don't break sawblades
hardly at all (and I use 9/0 blades mostly.)

Better than rio's burr life products?

Man, this stuff is unbelievable!
You know how when you're drilling a hole in gold with a little thin
drill bit & it's throwing up all those little snippets and chattering?
With Brown's it only throws up long, thin golden hairs.
And you only need to apply it once. No, I mean ONCE...ever.


(If any of you know where I can get a couple gross of 10/0 blades I'd
be most appreciative.)

Call Allcraft in New York. Tevel (the owner) was special ordering them from
Germany. Hercules blades, I think. Really fine, and really fragile, but when
you need em, they're way cool.

I'll check him out. Thanx!

Where'd you find 9/0 blades? The smallest I've seen commonly sold in the U.S.
are 8/0s...

I called Stuller and Andy the Tool Guy turned me on to this company
that was alleged to have 10/0's but only had a half a gross of 9/0's
so I bought 'em. But they were some left-over close-outs so it's OK
that I can't recall their name I s'pose. ;-)
I
The Orchid list is here http://www.ganoksin.com/invite.htm
The Snake Oil god is here

Frosty

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 10:23:21 GMT in rec.crafts.jewelry ted frater
, pulled fingers out of his butt and stuck 'em
in his mouth and said gsrmuuygfubcnnowuummm:
Frosty wrote:
So I took my first jewelry class last monday, had a really good time. I
snippy
I met a guy on there who is trying to launch a business selling this
magical stuff I like to call Brown's Snake Oil (He calls it
BrownPolymer because either his name is Brown or he has it tested as
Brown University or both, but it's not brown but rather sorta tan...)
Anyway it's an unbelievable substance that I put on my sawblades and
it helps me cut straighter and easier and I don't break sawblades
hardly at all (and I use 9/0 blades mostly.)
(If any of you know where I can get a couple gross of 10/0 blades I'd
be most appreciative.)
The Orchid list is here http://www.ganoksin.com/invite.htm
The Snake Oil god is here

Frosty


Hey!!, its Sunday morning and its coffee time as well. Its so wet
outside im sitting in my living room with the wood fire going well,
Time to have a think,
So snake oil you say? to lubricate thin saw blades a subject dear to my
heart.
We do a lot of sawing here, from jewellers piercing size to big band saw
size with lotsof different saws in between.
To lubricate metal cutting by hand iive allways used a petroleum wax
candle as it stays on the blade even if it gets warm.
you can use bees wax, or any other lubricating oil.
theres a thread cutting compound thats based on stearin ie soap,
tho ive not tried that on a jewellers hand saw. Its also usedin the
wire drawing industry, so it must be good.
Weve cut with our power hack saw, the sort that goes back and forth
like a donkey engine and weve used water to keep the blade cool, cutting
3in round bar.
So your snake oil could be just about like corn oil Just about any oil
would work well.
WD 40 is I belive mostly kerosene with a pretty smell. Expensive for
what it is. This works too but doesnt last long
Finally the previous writer paid nearly $300 for those small tools?
they saw them coming. Thed be a quarter of that from the tool suppliers
in the Birmingham jewellery quarter tool shops, and not the cheap
chinese copies.
what do other folks use to lube metal cutting saws?
Have a nice day.

Yeah, you can lop off great slabs of steel with an electric hack saw,
but if your cuts need to be precise or if you're engraving or bright
cutting, you don't want putrid globs of sheep-dip lube or corn-hole
oil all over a fine piece of platinum jewelry.
The nice thing about this polymer over conventional oils is that you
need only apply it ONE time, and it need only to coat the surface of
the cutting tool (know how think a surface is?)
So yeah, maybe if a person is thrashing about with crude, stone-age
tools, , any ol' oil would work just fine. Heck,
I'll betcha spit would work for you too.

You have a nice day too Tom.

Peter W.. Rowe, wrote:


(If any of you know where I can get a couple gross of 10/0 blades I'd
be most appreciative.)

Call Allcraft in New York. Tevel (the owner) was special ordering them from
Germany. Hercules blades, I think. Really fine, and really fragile, but when
you need em, they're way cool.

Where'd you find 9/0 blades? The smallest I've seen commonly sold in the U.S.
are 8/0s...


The thinnest I've ever seen, period, are 8/0. What in the world do you
need 10/0 for?

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:33:12 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry MatthewK
wrote:



Do you know about the steel differences of
the european made files compared to the american ones? I've heard from
people in the knifemaking comunity that the new american files aren't as
good for making knifes as the old ones. I've heard the new nicholsons have
a harder layer of steel at the teeth. Almost case hardened.

I can't tell you much about the actual steel. Only that as a general rule, with
jewelry grade files, meaing finer cuts and files that work well on precious
metals, as opposed to steel, it seems to me the european files sold to jewelers
work better, leaving a smoother more uniform finish. With coarser files, like
the standard Mill cuts, the american, chinese, and other cheaper ones seem to
work well enough, for less money. If you're working with tough metals, like
platinum, (or perhaps some types of steels or titanium, etc, you might find the
yellow tang german files to be superior, and longer lasting. But they cost a
good deal more too, so the economics can be questioned.


I'm wondering if the european manufactured ones would be better for
knives and such. Need something to do with a worn out file. I pretty
much feel files are "disposable". That's also what I've been told by "old"
guys.

There may be differences, but if you're only just learning things about knife
making, I wouldn't sweat it too much. use what you have. Most good knives are
not made from old files, but rather, more sophisticated alloys, like the various
400 serious stainless steels, or better grades of tool steels suited to knives.
If you're just starting out, I rather suspect your technical skills are not
finely enough honed yet to be able to really take much advantage of subtle
differences that might exist between the steels used in european files versus
american ones, if there even are any.


I should of checked my purchases out better. But still don't feel too bad.
A lot of the reason I purchased everything from one suplier off the bat
was time/convience. I just didn't think of looking through machining type
resources. I also should of ordered catalogs a month ago. Took my first
class and wanted stuff now......


I didn't mean to suggest you should feel bad at all. Otto Frei is a fine dealer
in my book, and I've bought a lot from them over the years. It's just wise to
be aware of the differences between what they carry and what they charge, versus
what other dealers carry and charge. These toys are costly enough, and we all
tend to get addicted enough, that getting the most bang for the buck in our tool
buying becomes quite necessary.

Peter

MatthewK wrote:
So I took my first jewelry class last monday, had a really good time.

Congratulations!

I
can see why one would spend 3 months on learning to saw.

You're way ahead of the game, if you really get why we spend 3 months
just sawing. Good for you.

That little
jewelers saw has opened up a whole new world to me. I ordered some basic
tools from Otto Frei, 2 saw frames 4 dozen blades in a few sizes.

Order a gross at a time. All you really need are 3/0 (most if not all
general sawing work), 6/0 and 8/0. More sizes is foolish.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

Frosty wrote:


Anyway it's an unbelievable substance that I put on my sawblades and
it helps me cut straighter and easier and I don't break sawblades
hardly at all (and I use 9/0 blades mostly.)

A total waste of money. Spit is the best lubricant. Just lick your saw
blades. Never fails. I've been doing it for more than 30 years.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

ted frater wrote:

what do other folks use to lube metal cutting saws?
Have a nice day.


Spit.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:47:45 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry Abrasha
wrote:

Frosty wrote:


Anyway it's an unbelievable substance that I put on my sawblades and
it helps me cut straighter and easier and I don't break sawblades
hardly at all (and I use 9/0 blades mostly.)

A total waste of money. Spit is the best lubricant. Just lick your saw
blades. Never fails. I've been doing it for more than 30 years.

And after the first few years, either you learn to lick the blade in the
downward direction, or the cuts stop hurting so much in any case.

personally, I prefer bur life over spit, especially on drill bits. Seems less
messy. Not that it works better, though...

one "tongue-in-cheek" problem with spit, of course, is that it might cause a
blade to rust. That might mean needing to change the blade more than once a
year or so, before the teeth are totally worn off. :-)

Peter

MatthewK wrote:
On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 10:23:21 +0000, ted frater wrote:



1 Grobet Swiss Made Adjustable Sawframe-2-3/4" (70mm) Deep

Sounds like a decent choice for general all purpose saw work.


1 German Adjustable Sawframe-4" (100mm) Deep

Waste of money, unless you plan to do a lot of large stuff. And even if
you do, you can get away with many, if not most, of your deep cuts with
your regular saw frame.

1 Otto Frei 2/0 Sawblades By The Dozen-12 Pieces $
4 Otto Frei 4/0 Sawblades By The Dozen-12 Pieces
4 Otto Frei 1/0 Sawblades By The Dozen-12 Pieces

1/0 and 2/0 saw blades are useless, too thick. If you work mainly in
gold, you'll waste a lot of money using these. And buying just 12 saw
blades is even more useless for a beginner. You'll go through them in
just a few days. Buy only 3/0 (general all purpose blade), 6/0 and 8/0.
And buy the 3/0 by the gross. Buy at least 6 dozen of the other two
sizes. You'll break saw blades all the time. That is normal.

4 Files-Tell Needle-Set Of 6 14CM Cut 2 Medium

Buying a set of needle files is not a good idea, because there are most
likely files in the set you'll never use. Buy good quality needle
files, Grobet made in Switzerland are the best.

1 Files-Half-Round 5 Inch Cut 2 Medium
1 Files-Hand 6 Inch Cut 2 Medium

Hand files in medium are like buying nail files. And half round is
shape you will not use a lot. For the few times, that you will need a
half round, you're better off using a "Mizzy" wheel. Faster, and
cheaper. Medium cut hand files are useless, they take forever to cut
through metal. Buy the coarsest hand file you can find. I use a 12" 0
cut for my rough cuts. Goes through gold and silver in seconds. That
sucker weighs about a pound. I'll post a picture of it on my site in
the next day or so. All my hand files are 0 cut. Anything finer is no
good for a hand file.

1 Mandrel-Ring-Graduated
High Speed Steel Twist Drill Kit 20 Pcs

You probably paid way too much. And again, buying a set with probably 1
each in certain sizes is not very helpful. Only buy the sizes you are
going to need all the time. Buy things like this at MSC (mscdirect.com)


1 Otto Frei 5-1/8" Mirror Polished Plier Kit Of 4-1 Each Chain, Flat, Round

What's the fourth one? Mirror Polished? What the hell does that mean?
I hope you bought box joints and not lap joints.


1 Mandrel-Bracelet-Round 380mm Long 40mm To 90mm Diameter (15" Long 1-1/2"

Unless you plan to make a lot of bracelets, a waste of money. I don't
know if you have access to a lathe. If you do, you can make your own in
a couple of hours.

1 BENCH PIN AND ANVIL COMBO

That's like buying a sofa bed, which are usually bad sofas, AND bad
beds. Besides, if you don't have a bench, where are you going to mount
the bench pin? If it is the so called screw on type, it's even worse,
because they are not very stable. You need a pin, that will mount very
rigidly to your bench, possibly like this:
http://www.abrasha.com/process/mr4/mr4-19.htm or
http://www.abrasha.com/process/mr4/mr4-21.htm or
http://www.abrasha.com/process/mr4/mr4-25.htm

and instead of an "anvil combo", get yourself a "bench block"
http://www.abrasha.com/process/mr4/mr4-37.htm



My total game to 285.00

Do you still think I got hosed?

I don't think you got hosed for what you bought, but I do think that you
bought a bunch of the wrong things. You should have asked here first
for recommendations, and possibly also at the orchid site. From the
responses that you would have gotten, you would have been able to put
together a better beginners kit.

I got the mandrels cause I'm already
beating on metal.......didn't need the bench pin/anvil but it seemed
convienent.

I don';t understand how it's convenient, if you don't have a bench to
mount it on.

Until I decide exactly what types of benches I want. Already
have some coarse files,scribes, punches. All my fine drill bits are gone
and I'm sick of using cheap pliers. Maybe I should of bought those
individually.

Yes.

You should buy a good flex shaft, with a decent hand piece. And a
soldering torch is a must.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

Peter W.. Rowe, wrote:


Saw frames. Stick with the german made traditional ones. Period.
The grobet swiss frame feels wonderful in the hand and is light weight, but
frankly, just doesn't work as well. Their funny little set screw thingys don't
have enough surface area at their front ends to really hold a saw blade well. OK
for the larger blades, but you'll have trouble holding those 4/0 or other finer
blades with it. That's annoying. And threading a blade end into that little
hole is a lot slower than clamping a blade between the clamp plates of a german
frame. Personally, though it may not be worth the money to do it, I'd send the
grobet frame back. And are you sure you need two frames anyway? Unless you're
sawing to the center of larger pieces of metal, a 2.5 or 3 inch frame might be
all you ever need. If you do more, just get used to the 4 inch. Not quite as
delicate to use, but will work, if you're trying to watch your budget.

I agree with the traditional German "Style". I got the German kind when
I lived there. Don't use them anymore. They are very heavy in the
hand. When I cam to the US, I bought a Swiss made one, that was rather
bad, but I took it apart, and completely rebuilt it. Made a new handle
for it too. This frame is now so well balanced, I would be in mourning
if I ever lost it.


Remember, if you're cutting longer strips off the side of a sheet, you can grip
a blade with pliers right next to each end where it's clamped, and twist it (the
toothless ends of the blades are softer), so then the blade cuts somewhat
sideways, allowing you to cut long strips off the side of a sheet with the frame
off to the side, rather than inline with the cut.

That's exactly what I do.


There are sawblades, and then there are sawblades. Some very wide variations in
price. Some of the costliest are not really the best for beginners, since
they're often tempered to a harder state, making them better for harder metals,
or tough to cut metals like platinum, or steel. But for most beginners, a
medium quality level blade is just fine, and saves money, since you'll actually
break fewer of them. But I've not looked at the frei web site to be sure what
you got. So maybe you're fine....

Pliers too, come in a wide range of qualities. You can spend 30 or 40 dollars
per pair, or you can spend 5 dollars per pair. While the costly ones are often
indeed very nice and will last decades, you often don't need quite that quality.
it's amazing how much work you can do with the cheap stainless pakistani pliers
for a couple bucks each. My favorite are in general the standard german pliers,
which generally are NOT polished. If you shop around, you can get them for
under 15 dollars each, and sometimes, the smaller ones as cheap as about 8
bucks.

Those are the ones I have. I have used them for well over 30 years now.

(Tevel, at Allcraft, in New York, always seems to have specials on some
cool pliers at amazing prices, at every SNAG convention...) You can even find
servicable cheaper pliers at places like Harbor Freight.

Don't!

They'll be lap joint,
not box joint, which won't last as long and are a bit less precise for very fine
detailed work, but if you need you can spend a bit of time cleaning up the jaws
a bit more and end up with nicely workable tools for a couple bucks each.
However, I'll agree with you that using nice pliers is nicer. Really cheap ones
don't work as well, at least when you buy them. If you learn to modify them and
clean them up, many can be made much better. But starting with a good tight box
joint plier that's well made to start, is not a bad choice at all.

The above modificatnion advice applies less or at least differently to cutters
and nippers, though. Pliers can have somewhat softer steel in the jaws and
still be fine. It's handy at times, in fact, to be able to modify a plier jaw
slightly for a task at hand, an argument in favor of having a small supply on
hand of the really cheap pliers, for those jobs where you need to customize a
plier jaw and don't want to ruin an expensive pair of lindstroms.

Lindstroms are always a waste of money. I say always, because using a
pair of pliers or cutters is never the last operation you do on a piece
of metal. You will always need to modify the metal or clean it up
afterwards, no matter how expensive a pair of pliers you have used.

but cutters
need good steel, tempered correctly, to work at all well. There are many decent
ones though, even at your local hardware store. As with the pliers, you can
dress up the jaws to improve their accuracy if you need.

Agreed.

Many of my precise
flush cutting nippers tarted life as plain styles, which I ground down and
trimmed a bit to make the cutting jaws more to my liking.

I did the same.

Doing that is easy,
and can save you half the cost of the tool.

Good files are a joy, and make a big difference in what you can do with them, IF
you know how to file well. Almost any german or swiss made file will be fine,
though, and I've seen some surprisingly good files for ridiculously low prices
from Poland and elsewhere in eastern europe. The chinese made files are OK only
in the coarse machinist styles for larger work, but certainly are cheap.

Drill bits sold via jewelers supply houses are often a bit costly. Check harbor
freight's prices, or the prices at machine tools suppliers like Enco or MSC.
there's a set on sale now at Harbor Freight for a numbered set, size 1 to 60,
for under thirty dollars, I think. Decent drills. And I've found a few sellers
on ebay now and then selling small jewelers sized drills by the dozen for very
cheap. Chinese or russian made. Not sure which. They seem to work just fine
so far, though with the smallest sizes (half millimeter) I break a few more of
them than I would with better quality. But like I said, they were VERY cheap.
Learn to resharpen small bits. Not hard to do, with care. Small bits get dull
quickly, and when dull don't work as well and break easily. You'll get a lot
more life out of your bits if you learn to sharpen them. Needs a good
magnifier, and use a fine grit seperating disk in a flex shaft to sharpen them.

No! Use a sharpening stone, with the drill in a pin vise. You'll have
much better control.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com