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So, here's the (hopefully) next topic of debate



 
 
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  #31  
Old January 27th 06, 10:29 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
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Default So, here's the (hopefully) next topic of debate

Martha Hughes wrote:
Well, when I'm paying the professional several hundreds of dollars for the
valuable time so that they can teach me a technique I expect to be ableto
ask them a questions, no matter how stupid or simplistic they feel it is.
I don't expect to get something for nothing but if you're going to be a
teacher of a craft stupid questions (no matter how many times you've been
asked and answered in the past) are part and parcel of the teaching
profession.

Being a newbie, myself, I am quite adept of finding my own answers,
researching for the solutions to my own problems, and I'm not scared to
make mistakes (my best learning devices) and basically taking care of
myself. However, I will go to my instructors when I've exhausted my
skills and abilities and ask them to help me out. That's what they are
being paid for - If I can't ask them questions (no matter how trite or
stupid they might think they are) the why am I paying them several of
thousands of dollars to have access to expertise? My time as an jewelry
artist might not be as valuable as theirs - but I can sure bet you my time
in my profession is just as valuable (seeing how part of it goes to paying
them their salary).

I don't ask for free advice. However, I'm willing to pay for it.




So you want to know where did the seasoned veterans get their answers?
the answer is
the same place and way as newbies have to get them today.

Also I dont see the problem of ignorance as something to be erradicated.
I dont owe the world a living nor does the world owe me one
If anythig has been done before then the knowhow is out there for the
finding. Looking at this in detail,
1. they went to jewellry school wherever that might be,
or2.
they did a PROPER search for the knowhow they wanted to find out about
or3,
they served a proper apprenticeship with a master,
the thouble with most folks to day, is there not taught how to think,
or to put it bluntly
the dont know how to ask the right questions.

Jewellery is just one skill set like many other.
yiou can read it up till you look like a jeweller, but
till you have practiced the skills and mastered the techniques by
trial as well as error, you wont get anywhere.

whats so annoying to us veterans is the newbe that is too lazy to do
the simplest of his her own research and expects us to tell them how to
do the simplest of tasks that 5 mins of research in a book will give the
answer.
Its presumtious of the newbe to expect someone whos time is worth many
times more than the newbe.s to deal with trivial requests.
were professionals, like others,whose time can be worth many hundres of
dollars an hour.
would you expect your lawyer, accountaht, doctor dentist or other
professional to give his time to someone thats thinks the world owes
them the knowhow?
No,
ive written this before here a no of times.
If you can show that youve made an effort to find out and due to
whatever circumstances you havnt, then most of us will be happy to
point you in the right direction.
and to comment on the original posting in this thread,
So bored?
What you write shows how and what you think.








Hi Martha,
Thanks for making a case for the thinking newbe.
It makes a pleasant change to hear it.
Theres not many about.
the point I was trying to make at least,
what I thought I said was,
The working professional(designer, or working master ) whose time is
valuable being in business for himself being expected to answer stupid
questions that the student should have looked up himself.
I was not writing about the professional jewelry teacher,
who chooses to sell for the want of a better word his knowhow.
By doing so, he, by implication accepts the risk of being asked the same
questions over and over.
Apart from the 1st 4 months of my jewelery making career,
ive allways designed, made and marketed my own products.
Ive never taught nor thought to do so.
the only person Ive taught all I know is my son, who from the earliest
time he could walk, came into the workshop and started to ask questions,
what do I do?
put him out? and get on with what ever I was making?
or answer him and show him what I was doing?
I chose the latter course as I reassoned he might just want to do it
too, or if he was bright with his head, hed have 2 strings to his bow
instead of 1.
When he was (in the equivalent to your high school) at public school he
had several project in the cdt class. We would discuss these and I
deliberately made him think out the solutions to the design problems he
had to solve.I had no intention to give the answer to him.
Its proved a success,as now he is able to tackle any problem scenario
and find the most practical solution in his current employment.
He is brilliant at computers and software, went on to take this at
university, and found it wast what he wanted to do. Dropped out and is
now working with a designer and builder of underwater sonar systems.
Much happier at that.
.Apologies if I gave the wrong impression.
I couldnt agree more with you,
in your clearly outlined scenario.
Ted Frater.Dorset UK.
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  #32  
Old January 28th 06, 03:05 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
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Default So, here's the (hopefully) next topic of debate



Hi Martha,
Thanks for making a case for the thinking newbe.
It makes a pleasant change to hear it.
Theres not many about.
the point I was trying to make at least,
what I thought I said was,
The working professional(designer, or working master ) whose time is
valuable being in business for himself being expected to answer stupid
questions that the student should have looked up himself.
I was not writing about the professional jewelry teacher,
who chooses to sell for the want of a better word his knowhow.
By doing so, he, by implication accepts the risk of being asked the same
questions over and over.
Apart from the 1st 4 months of my jewelery making career,
ive allways designed, made and marketed my own products.
Ive never taught nor thought to do so.
the only person Ive taught all I know is my son, who from the earliest
time he could walk, came into the workshop and started to ask questions,
what do I do?
put him out? and get on with what ever I was making?
or answer him and show him what I was doing?
I chose the latter course as I reassoned he might just want to do it
too, or if he was bright with his head, hed have 2 strings to his bow
instead of 1.
When he was (in the equivalent to your high school) at public school he
had several project in the cdt class. We would discuss these and I
deliberately made him think out the solutions to the design problems he
had to solve.I had no intention to give the answer to him.
Its proved a success,as now he is able to tackle any problem scenario
and find the most practical solution in his current employment.
He is brilliant at computers and software, went on to take this at
university, and found it wast what he wanted to do. Dropped out and is
now working with a designer and builder of underwater sonar systems.
Much happier at that.
.Apologies if I gave the wrong impression.
I couldnt agree more with you,
in your clearly outlined scenario.
Ted Frater.Dorset UK.


Hello Ted:

Thank you for your word - the explained the point of view where you
were coming from. When I found this group I sort of had in mind that it
would be one of those places I could find answers to my questions, exchange
ideas, maybe find a mentor - just living up to being a clever newbie.
I have learned a few things but not because I asked any questions
- and probably won't ask any in the futures - at least not in this
forum. Because a beginner I am going to ask the question that has been
asked and answered millions times before by those who came before me.
Hwoever, it will be the first time that I asked the questions - and if I'm
paying attention - it will be the last time. I will just sit at the
feet to the masters and learn by listening - and paying attention (that
being said with all respect and with not a hint of sarcasm).

One thought I would like to introduce in this string we've been sharing is
the flip side - the meddling veteran who likes to give you unsolicited
advice/instruction/correction - you name it - and then ridicules for
not listening to them. They are in every faceted of your life - you just
can't avoid them. They remind me of a meddling middle-aged family memberwho
just can't keep out of your business and get's all insulted because you didn't
do exactly want they wanted you to do. I know they mean well but sometimes you
just want to discover things on your own and don't want to be told what to do.
It's all part of the learning process.

I usually listen to what they have to say - use what I can and ignore therest.
Sometimes, you do get some pearls of wisdom from them - sometimes you
don't. And I, will of course, accept responsibility for all my failures
and revel in my glories.



 




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