Reverse Engineering?

I was just looking at my latest Keepsake Quilting and Connecting Threads
catalogs and was wondering how ya'll feel on the whole "reverse engineering"
thing?

Is it stealing? Since you're really looking over a pattern and figuring out
how to reproduce it without actually buying the pattern?

Or is it just being clever? Since usually you're not only paying for the
pattern, but the instructions as well ... and you're smart enough to figure
it out without help? I pretty much always figured that the directions were
far more important and more of an impetus to buy the pattern than just the
design itself ...

Just wondering ...

--
Connie
http://sewverycreative.blogspot.com

Legally, I think that would depend on how unique the design was. If it
is nothing more than a traditional block, the designer would have a hard
time proving copyright infringement. If it is truly a unique design, the
designer could have a case against you, especially if you reproduced it
in similar fabrics. Then again, I'm not an intellectual property
attorney, so take my opinion for what it is -- my opinion.

Julia in MN
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SewVeryCreative wrote:
I was just looking at my latest Keepsake Quilting and Connecting Threads
catalogs and was wondering how ya'll feel on the whole "reverse engineering"
thing?

Is it stealing? Since you're really looking over a pattern and figuring out
how to reproduce it without actually buying the pattern?

Or is it just being clever? Since usually you're not only paying for the
pattern, but the instructions as well ... and you're smart enough to figure
it out without help? I pretty much always figured that the directions were
far more important and more of an impetus to buy the pattern than just the
design itself ...

Just wondering ...

--
Connie
http://sewverycreative.blogspot.com

I wasn't asking in the sense of selling or representing the pattern as your
own ... I meant more along the lines of you see a pattern online, or at your
LQS (or even a quilt already made) and you like it and figure that you could
make it yourself ... for your own use or to make as a gift for someone else.

Intellectual-property-wise, it *would* in a sense be copyright infringement,
but typically only prosecutable if you tried to profit from it.

If you used it for a personal project (and didn't try to profit from it by
selling it or representing it as your own) the designer would have a hard
time proving that you didn't buy the pattern yourself and more than likely
wouldn't bother with it.

I'm not an intellectual property atty in any sense of the word, but I deal
with copyrights on a daily basis for my work.
--
Connie
http://sewverycreative.blogspot.com


"Julia in MN" wrote in message
...
Legally, I think that would depend on how unique the design was. If it
is nothing more than a traditional block, the designer would have a hard
time proving copyright infringement. If it is truly a unique design, the
designer could have a case against you, especially if you reproduced it
in similar fabrics. Then again, I'm not an intellectual property
attorney, so take my opinion for what it is -- my opinion.

Julia in MN
-----------
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http://webpages.charter.net/jaccola/
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SewVeryCreative wrote:
I was just looking at my latest Keepsake Quilting and Connecting Threads
catalogs and was wondering how ya'll feel on the whole "reverse
engineering"
thing?

Is it stealing? Since you're really looking over a pattern and figuring
out
how to reproduce it without actually buying the pattern?

Or is it just being clever? Since usually you're not only paying for the
pattern, but the instructions as well ... and you're smart enough to
figure
it out without help? I pretty much always figured that the directions
were
far more important and more of an impetus to buy the pattern than just
the
design itself ...

Just wondering ...

--
Connie
http://sewverycreative.blogspot.com

I 'borrow' ideas from quilts I see in catalogs, magazines, books, etc. But
I seldom follow the example very closely. I might get an idea of color
combinations from one, a unique setting from another and another stimulates
me to try something new with an old favorite block- like distorting a
pinwheel block in some way. I seldom use/buy patterns for quilts because I
want something different... or I take their idea and 'run with it' and 'make
it better' (that's in my opinion it's better) type of stuff.

Maybe I should stop talking. Somebody might decide to check up on me! VBG

Leslie, Missy & The Furbabies in MO.

"SewVeryCreative" wrote in message
...
I wasn't asking in the sense of selling or representing the pattern as your
own ... I meant more along the lines of you see a pattern online, or at
your
LQS (or even a quilt already made) and you like it and figure that you
could
make it yourself ... for your own use or to make as a gift for someone
else.

Intellectual-property-wise, it *would* in a sense be copyright
infringement,
but typically only prosecutable if you tried to profit from it.

If you used it for a personal project (and didn't try to profit from it by
selling it or representing it as your own) the designer would have a hard
time proving that you didn't buy the pattern yourself and more than likely
wouldn't bother with it.

I'm not an intellectual property atty in any sense of the word, but I deal
with copyrights on a daily basis for my work.
--
Connie
http://sewverycreative.blogspot.com


"Julia in MN" wrote in message
...
Legally, I think that would depend on how unique the design was. If it
is nothing more than a traditional block, the designer would have a hard
time proving copyright infringement. If it is truly a unique design, the
designer could have a case against you, especially if you reproduced it
in similar fabrics. Then again, I'm not an intellectual property
attorney, so take my opinion for what it is -- my opinion.

Julia in MN
-----------
This message has been scanned for viruses by Norton Anti-Virus
http://webpages.charter.net/jaccola/
-----------

SewVeryCreative wrote:
I was just looking at my latest Keepsake Quilting and Connecting
Threads
catalogs and was wondering how ya'll feel on the whole "reverse
engineering"
thing?

Is it stealing? Since you're really looking over a pattern and figuring
out
how to reproduce it without actually buying the pattern?

Or is it just being clever? Since usually you're not only paying for
the
pattern, but the instructions as well ... and you're smart enough to
figure
it out without help? I pretty much always figured that the directions
were
far more important and more of an impetus to buy the pattern than just
the
design itself ...

Just wondering ...

--
Connie
http://sewverycreative.blogspot.com

Taking someone else's design as inspiration and running with it in a whole
different direction is *not* copyright infringement. (That assumes some
distinctive changes to the design, of course, not just "she made hers in
blue and yellow and I used pink and white"....)

I'm not sure I've ever managed to actually follow a pattern as written
precisely. Some stuff (star quilts) I don't believe I changed enough to be
callable "different design", some I'm not sure anyone would recognize as
"gee, you started out looking at X pattern, didn't you?"

I've done the same thing with tile floors, for all that.....

--pig


On 1/24/08 17:48, in article , "Leslie &
The Furbabies in MO." wrote:

I 'borrow' ideas from quilts I see in catalogs, magazines, books, etc. But
I seldom follow the example very closely. I might get an idea of color
combinations from one, a unique setting from another and another stimulates
me to try something new with an old favorite block- like distorting a
pinwheel block in some way. I seldom use/buy patterns for quilts because I
want something different... or I take their idea and 'run with it' and 'make
it better' (that's in my opinion it's better) type of stuff.

Maybe I should stop talking. Somebody might decide to check up on me! VBG

It depends on the pattern....G
IF it is a traditional block, in an "ordinary" setting then you should
be okay. However, copyright does cover "derivative works", which means
if it an original design and you make it and someone says "that looks
like so-and-so's pattern" then you are violating copyright.
This is a very complex subject that lots of people don't want to discuss
at all. But, remember.. designers do not make a lot of money on any one
pattern. And if they can't sell the patterns they probably won't keep
coming up with new ones.

Pati, in Phx.... and aspiring pattern designer. (Got the pattern bags
this week..........)

SewVeryCreative wrote:
I was just looking at my latest Keepsake Quilting and Connecting Threads
catalogs and was wondering how ya'll feel on the whole "reverse engineering"
thing?

Is it stealing? Since you're really looking over a pattern and figuring out
how to reproduce it without actually buying the pattern?

Or is it just being clever? Since usually you're not only paying for the
pattern, but the instructions as well ... and you're smart enough to figure
it out without help? I pretty much always figured that the directions were
far more important and more of an impetus to buy the pattern than just the
design itself ...

Just wondering ...

--
Connie
http://sewverycreative.blogspot.com

Connie, you are sort of right..G Again, a tricky question. Technically
even if you only made it for yourself, or for a gift, you are violating
copyright. You don't have to sell something to violate copyright.
Unfortunately this is a touchy subject for many people. If you make a
copy, then give the original pattern away, but keep the copy you are
still violating copyright. and so on.
Would the designer "go after you" for making a quilt for personal
use/gifting? Probably not. But............

VBG
Pati, in Phx

SewVeryCreative wrote:
I wasn't asking in the sense of selling or representing the pattern as your
own ... I meant more along the lines of you see a pattern online, or at your
LQS (or even a quilt already made) and you like it and figure that you could
make it yourself ... for your own use or to make as a gift for someone else.

Intellectual-property-wise, it *would* in a sense be copyright infringement,
but typically only prosecutable if you tried to profit from it.

If you used it for a personal project (and didn't try to profit from it by
selling it or representing it as your own) the designer would have a hard
time proving that you didn't buy the pattern yourself and more than likely
wouldn't bother with it.

I'm not an intellectual property atty in any sense of the word, but I deal
with copyrights on a daily basis for my work.
--
Connie
http://sewverycreative.blogspot.com


"Julia in MN" wrote in message
...
Legally, I think that would depend on how unique the design was. If it
is nothing more than a traditional block, the designer would have a hard
time proving copyright infringement. If it is truly a unique design, the
designer could have a case against you, especially if you reproduced it
in similar fabrics. Then again, I'm not an intellectual property
attorney, so take my opinion for what it is -- my opinion.

Julia in MN
-----------
This message has been scanned for viruses by Norton Anti-Virus
http://webpages.charter.net/jaccola/
-----------

SewVeryCreative wrote:
I was just looking at my latest Keepsake Quilting and Connecting Threads
catalogs and was wondering how ya'll feel on the whole "reverse
engineering"
thing?

Is it stealing? Since you're really looking over a pattern and figuring
out
how to reproduce it without actually buying the pattern?

Or is it just being clever? Since usually you're not only paying for the
pattern, but the instructions as well ... and you're smart enough to
figure
it out without help? I pretty much always figured that the directions
were
far more important and more of an impetus to buy the pattern than just
the
design itself ...

Just wondering ...

--
Connie
http://sewverycreative.blogspot.com

hi Pati,
so if you make up your your own design and someone says
'that looks like so-and-so's pattern'....this is breach of copyright?
surely different people can have similar designs, enough so that what you design
can well look much like another persons designs or style.
i love the jacobean type designs. there are more than a few who make these into
patterns for sale.
i make up my own by mixing and matching various shapes, colours, patterns.
mine could well look a lot like some patterns for sale.
if that is so, it is pure coincidence.
i do lookthru books at images from the original era for inspiration.
i betcha the pattern sellers do the same thing.
maybe we're all in breach of Jacobs designs.
confuddled in the south pacific,
jeanne

"Pati C." wrote...
It depends on the pattern....G
IF it is a traditional block, in an "ordinary" setting then you should be
okay. However, copyright does cover "derivative works", which means if it an
original design and you make it and someone says "that looks like so-and-so's
pattern" then you are violating copyright.
This is a very complex subject that lots of people don't want to discuss at
all. But, remember.. designers do not make a lot of money on any one pattern.
And if they can't sell the patterns they probably won't keep coming up with
new ones.

Pati, in Phx.... and aspiring pattern designer. (Got the pattern bags this
week..........)

On Jan 24, 2:01*pm, "SewVeryCreative"
wrote:
I was just looking at my latest Keepsake Quilting and Connecting Threads
catalogs and was wondering how ya'll feel on the whole "reverse engineering"
thing?

Is it stealing? Since you're really looking over a pattern and figuring out
how to reproduce it without actually buying the pattern?

Or is it just being clever? Since usually you're not only paying for the
pattern, but the instructions as well ... and you're smart enough to figure
it out without help? I pretty much always figured that the directions were
far more important and more of an impetus to buy the pattern than just the
design itself ...

Just wondering ...

--
Connie http://sewverycreative.blogspot.com

Definitely not stealing! Stealing is going to a store and sneaking
out with the pattern under your coat. Imho, if you can look at a
pattern and figure out how to do it, then that's perfectly
legitimate.

Best regards,
Michelle in NV

True ... but it wouldn't be prosecutable in a real sense of the word ... the
designer would have to be able to *prove* that I didn't have the right to
use that design (meaning, they would have to be able to prove that I didn't
legally purchase their pattern). And few judges would censure the average
person for not keeping a reciept to a purchase as "small" as a pattern. I
know I don't have half the reciepts for the quilty items I've bought over
the years - much less the original packaging!

I went through that, albeit secondhand, a few years back when I created
illustrations for CorelDraw to use as the free clipart they give with their
software. So many copies of the program were being illegally passed around
so I knew that at least half the time that I saw "my" illustrations used in
a presentation or on a web site, that they were illegally obtained -- since,
of course, if you had an illegal copy of the app, you had all the free
clipart that went with it.

Even if I had been in the position where I could sue (which, of course, I
couldn't since I "sold" the copyright to the images to CorelDraw), it
wouldn't have been feasible when I wouldn't be able to prove that the people
using my illustrations got them via illegal software.

I wonder how many pattern designers actually copyright their designs? I'd
like to become a "real" pattern designer ... and that's just something I
wonder about ...

--
Connie
http://sewverycreative.blogspot.com


"Pati C." wrote in message
...
Connie, you are sort of right..G Again, a tricky question. Technically
even if you only made it for yourself, or for a gift, you are violating
copyright. You don't have to sell something to violate copyright.
Unfortunately this is a touchy subject for many people. If you make a
copy, then give the original pattern away, but keep the copy you are
still violating copyright. and so on.
Would the designer "go after you" for making a quilt for personal
use/gifting? Probably not. But............

VBG
Pati, in Phx

SewVeryCreative wrote:
I wasn't asking in the sense of selling or representing the pattern as
your
own ... I meant more along the lines of you see a pattern online, or at
your
LQS (or even a quilt already made) and you like it and figure that you
could
make it yourself ... for your own use or to make as a gift for someone
else.

Intellectual-property-wise, it *would* in a sense be copyright
infringement,
but typically only prosecutable if you tried to profit from it.

If you used it for a personal project (and didn't try to profit from it
by
selling it or representing it as your own) the designer would have a
hard
time proving that you didn't buy the pattern yourself and more than
likely
wouldn't bother with it.

I'm not an intellectual property atty in any sense of the word, but I
deal
with copyrights on a daily basis for my work.
--
Connie
http://sewverycreative.blogspot.com


"Julia in MN" wrote in message
...
Legally, I think that would depend on how unique the design was. If it
is nothing more than a traditional block, the designer would have a
hard
time proving copyright infringement. If it is truly a unique design,
the
designer could have a case against you, especially if you reproduced it
in similar fabrics. Then again, I'm not an intellectual property
attorney, so take my opinion for what it is -- my opinion.

Julia in MN
-----------
This message has been scanned for viruses by Norton Anti-Virus
http://webpages.charter.net/jaccola/
-----------

SewVeryCreative wrote:
I was just looking at my latest Keepsake Quilting and Connecting
Threads
catalogs and was wondering how ya'll feel on the whole "reverse
engineering"
thing?

Is it stealing? Since you're really looking over a pattern and
figuring
out
how to reproduce it without actually buying the pattern?

Or is it just being clever? Since usually you're not only paying for
the
pattern, but the instructions as well ... and you're smart enough to
figure
it out without help? I pretty much always figured that the directions
were
far more important and more of an impetus to buy the pattern than just
the
design itself ...

Just wondering ...

--
Connie
http://sewverycreative.blogspot.com