trademarking a makers mark

Sorry it has taken me so long to reply to your post. I had to wait until
the owner was free before I could go back again. He has agreed that if I
make some more jewelry without stamping it he will buy a few pieces(!!!!),
although he says that customers will pay more for stamped jewelry so he will
have to price the unstamped pieces a bit lower than if they were stamped.

The owner said it's true that I can put my full name and .925 on a hang tag,
as you suggested (or even put my full name and .925 stamped on my jewelry if
it will fit). But he said that once I've stamped my jewelry as .925 and
also stamped it with my mark, that mark must be trademarked to sell out of
state. He said that is because the trademark allows someone to track down
whoever made the piece if it is not really sterling.

I don't know if this information is right but he did say that he paid a lot
of money to an attorney who specializes in trademark rights, so I hope at
least for his sake his attorney is correct.

Thank you very much for your help!! I would not have this opportunity if
you had not suggested the hang tags. Also, I am going to try to sell my
stamped pieces at home. OH--the owner also said that is the way to
establish a trademark: Mark some pieces and sell them in your own state to
put the mark in use and then apply for a trademark and then sell out of
state.

This is my last night here and I am in a bit of a hurry so I have to go now.
I will try to find this group again when I get home. You all have been very
helpful. I would not have my first "real" sale without your help. Thx.



"Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in message
...
On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 08:04:06 -0800, in Tõ "New Grad"

wrote:

I am currently visiting a friend who has a contact in a very upscale
jewelry
boutique. The owner of the boutique sells a lot of handmade jewelry from
artisans around the country. He told me that he liked my work ("it's
unique"!!!), but if I want to sell to him, then I must obtain a trademark
for my makers mark. He said this is because I live in a different state
from where his boutique is located.

This thread got me thinking, and dong some web searching. I came up with
a few
interesting points.

The U.S. law regarding precious metal marking does not require you to mark
karat content
on gold or silver quality on silver, etc. If you choose not to mark it,
however, it
cannot then be represented as such. If you DO mark it, such as stamping
it sterling or
a karat mark, then U.S. law requires, if the articles are subject to
federal law, which
means interstate commerce, that the items ALSO be marked with either a
U.S. registered
trademark, OR the name of the maker. If the latter (your name), then you
don't need to
register your name for it to be legal. But the point is that it is
entirely legal to
sell the work in interstate commerce with no marks at all. Only if you
mark it with the
metal content, does it then also need a trademark or makers name.

Also note that the mark only needs to be permenant enough to reach the end
consumer at
the point of purchase. it is legal to mark a work on the packaging or on
a sales tag,
rather than stamping the item itself. And the method of marking is not
specified, other
than to say it must be legible and reasonably readable by the consumer. A
totally
microscopic marking, or one placed where a consumer cannot find it, does
not fit the
legal requirements. You can stamp it, of course, and because that's fast
and good
looking, is the commercial norm. But engraving it or scribing it, such as
signing your
name with a vibrograver, is also entirely legal. So is plain ballpoint
pen on a hang
tag, so long as the tag stays on it long enough for the end consumer to
get it.

I was unable to find further documentation as to just what constitutes
marking an item
with your name. I suspect your full last name may be enough, but don't
know for sure,
nor whether two or three initials is sufficient. That's of interest
since many
jewelers do exactly that, and have not registered their initials.

A tradmark does not have to be registered for it to be a legal tradmark,
but the
stamping law goes further, and DOES require registration for a trademark
to fit the
requirements on jewelry marking. This is partly of interest since
registering a
trademark seems to require that the trademark already be put in commercial
use in order
to file the registration paperwork. Until the application is actually
approved, and the
mark registered, a trademark is not yet considered "registered". ie, a
pending or filed
registration application is not enough.

I'd suggest continuing to mark your items as you now do, but for these
"interstate"
deals, print up some nice little hang tags that also state the metal
content as well as
your name. They would then satisfy, fully, the federal marking
requirements. If that
store does not believe this, send them this URL, which is one of several
places on the
FTC web site that mentions the option of marking with your actual name,
rather than a
trademark. It's a copy of a letter written by FTC attorneys in response
to someones
inquiry about marking their silver keychain or some such. The FTC site
mentions this
option in several other places, including the actual jewelry marking
guidelines.

http://www.ftc.gov/os/statutes/jewel...rs/neilson.pdf

The pertenant part of that letter states;

With respect to your question regarding registering the charm so you can
stamp it with
".925 Sterling," the National Gold and Silver Stamping Act provides, in
pertinent part, that an
article bearing a quality mark or stamp indicating that such article is
made in whole or in part of
gold or silver shall also contain the U.S. registered trademark or the
name of the responsible
party. 15 U.S.C. § 297 (b). Therefore, although you may obtain a
registered trademark to place
on your article, you may also stamp the article "Sterling" as long as the
name of the responsible
party appears next to the quality mark. If you are interested in
obtaining a trademark, you should
call the Trademark Office at (703) 308-9800.

Hope that helps.

Peter Rowe

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 00:44:42 -0800, in õ "New Grad"
wrote:

He has agreed that if I
make some more jewelry without stamping it he will buy a few pieces(!!!!),
although he says that customers will pay more for stamped jewelry so he will
have to price the unstamped pieces a bit lower than if they were stamped.

Don't allow his odd behavior in this matter to change how much you charge him for your
work. If he wishes to use a lower markup to sell the work cheaper, that's his choice,
but his argument is, to be blunt, suspiciously like a pile of steaming... well,... you
know.

In 35 years of making and selling jewelry, I don't think I've met more than a very few
customers that cared much about how a piece of jewelry is marked. Few even ask at all.
they may be interested in what the jewelry is made of, but the nature of a mark is not
often going to change what customers will pay. In fact, one can argue that the lack of
the registered trademark is due to the fact that the work is made by an individual
artist, as yet without the financial resources to go to the rather high cost of actually
registering a trademark. That should make your work more exclusive, perhaps even worthy
of being priced a bit higher. Stand up for yourself, girl. Don't let this jerk push
you around too much. (And you might consider printing out, and showing him, copies of
some of these replies, including this one.)


The owner said it's true that I can put my full name and .925 on a hang tag,
as you suggested (or even put my full name and .925 stamped on my jewelry if
it will fit). But he said that once I've stamped my jewelry as .925 and
also stamped it with my mark, that mark must be trademarked to sell out of
state. He said that is because the trademark allows someone to track down
whoever made the piece if it is not really sterling.

Here, he's wrong. That you've put a logo or trademark on your work does not then
exclude your ability to satisfy the legal requirements in another way, with the hang
tag. This is particularly defensible in that a trademark must already be in commercial
use before an application for federal registration can be applied for. It becomes a
"chicken and egg" question. If you mark the work with your name, either on the work or
with a hangtag, that then fully satisfies the legal requirement. The presence of some
other, possibliy personal or decorative stamp does not invalidate the fact that your
name marking still satisfies the legalities. There is no legal requirement at all, to
make it easy or possible for a future viewer of the trademark to research the piece.
It's nice to be able to do so, for appraisers especially, but this is NOT a legal
requirement. And there are a lot of pieces out there, with fully legal registered
trademarks, that you'll find are almost impossible to trace, if those trademarks are not
yet fully illustrated in published guides or online. As yet, not all are. The problem
is enough, and includes enough artists, that there is actually a book currently in
production (or perhaps already published) by arts apprasers, if I recall it correctly,
that specifically asked metals artists over the last few years, to submit examples of
their trademarks, whether registered or not, and the latter catagory includes a lot or
peoples marks. The idea was to allow appraisers of art jewelry to more accurately
determine that a given work was indeed not just a commercial product.


I don't know if this information is right but he did say that he paid a lot
of money to an attorney who specializes in trademark rights, so I hope at
least for his sake his attorney is correct.


His attorney knows the normal interpretations used in the business. This is a question
that he likely has not previously faced. Yet a simple reading of the stated regulation
says simply one or the other, which mentions nothing at all about requireing future
traceability. It's sole target audience is the initial retail buyer, to insure that
consumers are properly informed as to the nature of the materials. If this were not the
case, hang tags and temporary marks would not fit the bill in the first place. The fact
that your logo/trademark is not registered means it does not satisfy the legal
interstate trade requirements. But it in now way means that mark cannot be there in
addition to a legally acceptable marking of some other sort.

Thank you very much for your help!! I would not have this opportunity if
you had not suggested the hang tags. Also, I am going to try to sell my
stamped pieces at home. OH--the owner also said that is the way to
establish a trademark: Mark some pieces and sell them in your own state to
put the mark in use and then apply for a trademark and then sell out of
state.


He's got a decent idea there. I nevertheless think, though, that the guy is getting way
to hung up over fairly inconsequential, and very frequently ignored and bent, rules.
And I'm sure he must know this. So I ask myself why is he throwing these wrenches in
your path. it makes me wonder a lot, when he then claims he'll have to sell your work
for less. That sets off a very red flag for me. Makes me think his real reason for
arguing about stamps has more to do with squeezing you down to a lower price.
Experienced retail dealers are often in the habit of doing this with suppliers. it's
sad when they don't seem to understand that similarly squeezing some possibly half
starving artist who's just trying to get going, is really kinda sleezy behavior. And
that would make me want to be very very careful about what sorts of agreements I'd enter
into with him, regarding sales versus commission, or just when I'd get paid for a sale.
Watch your step with the fellow. He may be totally on the up and up, and just have too
strong an accountants or attorney's gene in his DNA. But he could also be rather bad
news if you let him take too much control. Remember that not only do you need him to
buy your work, but he needs you as well, though he'll never admit this to your face.
Without you and other suppliers, he's got nothing to sell. So don't be afraid to stick
up for yourself, and don't just agree to whatever he wishes to arrange regarding the
financial arrangements, if you're not fully comfortable with it. it might be a good
idea to contact some of his other suppliers to find out if he deals fairly with them.

Hope that helps.

Peter Rowe

New Grad wrote:
Sorry it has taken me so long to reply to your post.....
[snip]


This guy whose messing you around is really covering his back side to
put it mildly.
What Peter Rowe has said is quite right.
now I design, make, and market my own products direct to my customers,
have done so for 30 plus years.
I mark my work with my makers mark, the date year, my name and town if
the piece warrants it. ie has enough room. IF your proud of what youve
done mark your work as YOU think fit and to hell with what the trade
buyers want. They will have to take it as it is or leave it.
Now I suggest you organise yourself to take part in a craft fair near
you. there you will meet the customers who will pay you a retail price.
they will love to see that youve marked your work. Its a selling point
that speaks for itself. All professional jewellers do this. Obviously if
your famous one day you wont need to mark your work but your early
marked work will be much sought after.
Keep us posted how you get on.

"Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in message
...

In 35 years of making and selling jewelry, I don't think I've met more
than a very few
customers that cared much about how a piece of jewelry is marked.

Now there's a man who hasn't done much trade in the UK.

It's threads like this that make me realise how lucky we are to have the
hallmarking system we have here.

--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe
Barbeques on fire by chalets past the headland
I've watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off Newborough
All this will pass like ice-cream on the beach
Time for tea

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 13:19:49 -0800, in ?? William Black wrote:

In 35 years of making and selling jewelry, I don't think I've met more
than a very few
customers that cared much about how a piece of jewelry is marked.

Now there's a man who hasn't done much trade in the UK.

It's threads like this that make me realise how lucky we are to have the
hallmarking system we have here.

True, enough, William. I've done little to no trade in the U.K. However, please don't
interpret my posting to mean that people in the U.S. don't care. They do. It's just
not often expressed by people pulling out a loupe and trying to read the stamps.
Instead, they ask the jeweler, and generally trust the jeweler they're buying from, to
be honest with them, not just in metals content, but in other quality concerns as well.

Obviously this has it's flaws, as in any barrel of apples, there may be a few bad ones,
and that applies to jewelers too. But the vast majority of manufacturers and retails
I've met, care about the quality they sell, and about being fair with customers,
delivering quality as promised and expected. There are, of course, occasional cases of
jewelry being sold underkarated. But it's not common or rampant, and usually ends up
being discovered in the end, I think. Retailers and manufacturers generally seem to
prefer to stay in business, and firms that flaunt our laws find it harder to do so, as
buyers then stay away. More of a problem than underkarating of the metal, I think,
are such things as rampant copying of other peoples designs ignoring copyrights, and you
guys are no more immune to that than we are, I think.

The hallmarking laws are not without their flaws too. Added costs, especially for young
designers first starting out, are higher than in the U.S. And there are some types of
work which are more difficult to deal with, such as Mokume, mixed metals work, or things
using both precious and non-precious metals (like titanium) in the same work, which may
have trouble being properly marked according to U.K. laws. In general, your system is
better than ours, agreed. But if the U.S. public, or government, percieved a
significant need to copy you, we might well long ago have done so. That it was never
done suggests that some folks here might feel your system to be somewhat of an
"overkill" situation...

But then we're also the fine free nation that thinks It's just dandy and fine to allow
just about anyone to purchase, own, and sometimes even conceal and carry around with
them, firearms up to and including high power military grade assault weapons. Way more
than any decent sportperson should need for a bit of hunting. They manage to
consistantly misread and misinterpret the 2nd ammendment so as to think it intended to
allow them to go around fully armed to the teeth, ready to blow away anyone or anything
that should annoy or threaten them. And even if the above were the true intent of the
original writers of that ammendment, these bright and intellegent folks also seem to
think it's the same world we now live in as it was in those frontier days 225 years ago.

So yeah, maybe I'll just have to be quiet and agree with you after all on the
hallmarking thing.... (grin)

Peter

New Grad wrote:
Sorry it has taken me so long to reply to your post. I had to wait until
the owner was free before I could go back again. He has agreed that if I
make some more jewelry without stamping it he will buy a few pieces(!!!!),
although he says that customers will pay more for stamped jewelry so he will
have to price the unstamped pieces a bit lower than if they were stamped.


Run out of his store as fast as you can, and take your work with you. That man
is full of ****! He just wants to use some lame excuse to cheat you out of a
fair price for your work.

Do not work with this man. You are fresh out of school, and you do not yet know
about dealing with people like this. You are wise to have come here for advice.
Now follow the advice some of us have given you.

The owner said it's true that I can put my full name and .925 on a hang tag,
as you suggested (or even put my full name and .925 stamped on my jewelry if
it will fit). But he said that once I've stamped my jewelry as .925 and
also stamped it with my mark, that mark must be trademarked to sell out of
state.

Absolutely not true!

He said that is because the trademark allows someone to track down
whoever made the piece if it is not really sterling.

Since you will have representation, no matter where you sell, you can be tracked
down through your representatives (read galleries), if you try to cheat the public

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

"Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in message
...

So yeah, maybe I'll just have to be quiet and agree with you after all on
the
hallmarking thing.... (grin)

Guns not withstanding (I lost my pistols when they were banned here) do you
think some US makers would benefit from sending stuff to be hallmarked here?

It's not that expensive, I think costs can go down to about 65p (about $1,
this week) an item if you send several things.

--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe
Barbeques on fire by chalets past the headland
I've watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off Newborough
All this will pass like ice-cream on the beach
Time for tea

On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 21:07:35 -0800, in ?? William Black wrote:

do you
think some US makers would benefit from sending stuff to be hallmarked here?

It's not that expensive, I think costs can go down to about 65p (about $1,
this week) an item if you send several things.

I think this is a fine example of the power of consumer advertising and eduction. In
the UK, people have several hundred years of being taught repeatedly of the importance
of the hallmark and that they should look for it, despite the fact that few of them have
ever found any problem with the karat content of anything they've bought in any
reputable shop (a circular situation, of course, since hallmarking itself prevents the
problems).

Here in the U.S., we've no such long history, and people have not been told over and
over every time the subject of karat content comes up, to look for or inquire about a
hallmark So they don't look, don't know it's an issue elsewhere, and similarly, also
seldom have any problem with good purchased in good stores, because the people who DO
know the issues, the jewelers generally have the integrety and pride in their product to
be sure things are the karat they are supposed to be. Neither they, nor the
manufacturers they buy from, would common wish to risk their reputation and perhaps
their whole business, by cheating.

Similar result, different legal means to acheive it.

It IS true, of course, that here in the U.S. buyers who frequent less than reputable
shops, or street vendors, or who knows what, have less to go on for assurance. But if
you're buying big heavy gold chains from some guy on the bus who's got them under his
coat, who'll sell it to you for fifteen bucks, shows you the big prominant 14K mark on
the tag, and claims the thing would be worth hundreds in a jewelry store, well, you get
what you pay for, and I'd dare say the hallmark in England could be just as easily faked
as the karat stamp can be here, if someone truely intends to cheat you. your penalties
are higher than ours, but such people aren't planning to get caught. (And don't laugh.
I've seen exactly this scenario. The hawker had no idea I was a jeweler, and I strung
him along for a while for fun... His twenty dollar Rolex watches, also claimed to be
genuine, were even poorer imitations, but no doubt, some poor saps bought the things)

The bottom line is that here in the U.S., there is little percieved need for hallmarking
among consumers or retailers. Sending work to be hallmarked would make sense only for
manufacturers wishing to sell in other countries, where there might be a greater
awareness of the U.K. hallmark. Here, I don't think it would provide any particular
advantage for most retailers. There may be exceptions, but in general, I doubt it will
ever be a common thing.

Peter

vj found this in rec.crafts.jewelry, from "Peter W.. Rowe,"
:

]The bottom line is that here in the U.S., there is little percieved need for
hallmarking
]among consumers or retailers.

that may well be true.
but NOTHING leaves my hands any longer without my mark on it.
AND either STERLING or .925, etc.


--
@vicki [SnuggleWench]
(Books) http://www.booksnbytes.com
(Jewelry) http://www.vickijean.com
(Metalsmithing) http://www.snugglewench.com
[it's a Callahan's thing]
yahooID: vjean95967
-----------
"Results! Why, man, I have gotten a lot of results.
I know several things that don't work." -- Thomas Edison

It is not surprising the English hallmarking system is very inset in the
English psyche. The origin dates back to 1300 under Edward 1 when he used
the Leopard's head as a mark and this developed over many centuries into the
hallmarking system they have today. The system is also useful for (other
than keeping people honest) one of identification. Who made the piece and
when and where it was hallmarked. People do make the mistake sometimes of
taking the date letter as the year of manufacture when in fact it is the
year it was hallmarked, something quite different.
It is going to be interesting to see how the hallmarking system changes or
even survives as the UK moves into the European Community.
Chris