UK Hallmarking Gripe!

"Terry" wrote in message
...
"Chicmac" wrote in
:

As a newbie to jewellery, (Pre-newbie even since I have yet to make
something), there are several questions regarding UK hallmarking.

From the web it says all silver items 7.8 gm must be hallmarked if
they
are to be referred to as silver. But it is unclear about the
following.

1) Does this refer only to the silver in the item? i.e. doesn't
include
gems or other material?

2) Does it refer only to the silver in the alloy used?

3) When they say 'referred to', do they mean you can sell bigger
silver
items unhallmarked if they are not referred to as silver? Also does
'referred to' mean with 'silver' stamped on the item somewhere or
does
it cover printed descriptions of unhallmarked items?
That's not very clear. Let me give example.
Can you sell silver items larger than 7.8gm if they are not
hallmarked
and can you otherwise still describe them as being silver?

4) Can you make unhallmarked items for personal use larger than 7.8
gm?


It's only about selling it, and what you describe it as when you are
selling it.
If the piece is over 7.8 grams and it's not hallmarked, you are not
allowed
to sell it IF you describe it as "silver". You can still sell it
though,
you must not call it silver, you can call it "white metal".
Same for gold (e.g. in UK shops, sales people are not allowed to
describe
their two-tone gold and steel watches as such, even if they are 18
carat,
it has to be called "yellow metal")

Regards,

Terry.

Thanks.
I guess the fact I don't ever recall seeing the term 'white metal' means
that folk either make things 7.8 gm or get it hallmarked in practice.

BTW is this the main reason for 'hollow-wear'? I'd always assumed
before that it was simply to save silver.

regards
chic

"William Black" wrote in message
...

"Chicmac" wrote in message
...
As a newbie to jewellery, (Pre-newbie even since I have yet to make
something), there are several questions regarding UK hallmarking.

From the web it says all silver items 7.8 gm must be hallmarked if
they
are to be referred to as silver. But it is unclear about the
following.

1) Does this refer only to the silver in the item? i.e. doesn't
include
gems or other material?

As a rule you don't send finished stuff to be hallmarked, you set the
jems
after hallmarking. The weight is the weight of metal.


Duh.

2) Does it refer only to the silver in the alloy used?

The metal's weight. It is marked sterling.

Right so you cant get away with 8.4 gms for Sterling then.


3) When they say 'referred to', do they mean you can sell bigger
silver
items unhallmarked if they are not referred to as silver?

Technically something over the minimum weight that is not hallmarked
is
called 'white metal'.

Some hallmarks, such as those from Holland, are accepted in the UK,
some
others, such as Italian, are not.

Also does
'referred to' mean with 'silver' stamped on the item somewhere or
does
it cover printed descriptions of unhallmarked items?

Everything sold as 'silver' must be stamped. However you're allowed
to
stamp small items yourself, usually with a small stamp marked '.925'

Must it be 'stamped' or can it be incorporated into the master at sculpt
time?

That's not very clear. Let me give example.
Can you sell silver items larger than 7.8gm if they are not
hallmarked
and can you otherwise still describe them as being silver?

No

4) Can you make unhallmarked items for personal use larger than 7.8
gm?

Yes.

I agree with you Terry BTW, hallmarking is just another stealth tax
much
beloved by UK Grabberments.

Well the system is now about 400 years old and no serious problems
with the
system have yet been found.

It is the oldest consumer protection system in the world still
running.

I should add that the solution is either to make more things or to
send them
via Cookson's who have a reasonabley priced hallmarking service.


There used to be a Cookson's in Glasgow but they shut down, so I'd still
have postage. What is the hallmarking service? Is that where they
collect many items from various cllients to submit to the assay office
in one parcel, thereby sharing the minimum cost overhead?

If you send enough stuff you should get the price down to about 60p an
item.

Now are we still talking about Cookson's or the Assay office here?
Bit academic for me at the moment though since it is definitely toe in
the water stuff just now.


regards
chic

"Andy Parker" wrote in message
...
Thank you for taking the time to reply.


Strewth this has opened a whole can of worms!
I am in the samre position as you Terry except I don't do work for
other shops but the minimum charge per quality hurts. Interesting that
it varies by Assay Office though - room for some discussion there
perhaps.
I have noticed that the minimum charge has doubled over the last 6
years or so.
For one offs where it is feasible I have taken to using hallmarked
shanks (Cookson charge about 3 UKP extra) and adding to it, butchering
etc. but that isn't always possible, like the 18white engagement ring
I just cast but I am lucky in that retailing direct I can factor in
the cost of Assaying one item - I try and have some other pieces handy
to include so it saves on postage at least.

The Assay Ofiices are now, I think, completely autonomous and whilst
it feels like a tax I think they are just covering costs plus
investment etc.


If the minimum charge has doubled in 6 years (while inflation has been
very low) either they were making a huge loss or are now making a huge
profit. OTOH that would be right in line with Labour's stealth tax
policies elsewhere (e.g. fuel tax). I bet HMG are getting a cut
somewhere.

The hallmarked 'shanks'? Is that like little bar hallmarked that can be
inset into a larger item? If so doesn't that defeat the whole purpose?


Chic's questions:-
1) items submitted for Assay must be complete (pendants have bails,
broches have pins etc.) but NOT gems set or other non-metallic
components.


What about things like bracelet ornaments?, I guess they would be
allowed to be stamped 925 by the maker(if they are 7.8) even though the
final item weighs a lot more.
Also does this apply to pendants and chains, i.e the chain is a separate
item from the chain?

2) For silver 7.8g refers to the alloy, presumably sterling although
it is still possible to have Britannia silver (958.4) assayed.

3) This boils down to if you call it silver (stamped as such, labelled
or just say it is) and it's over the 7.8 limit it has to be hallmarked
or you break the law. This doesn't apply to private transactions, only
those in the course of a trade or business, but if you make more than

How are trade fairs regarded?. Someone mentioned that they might be the
solution.
Is it because they are regarded as private transactions?

a few in a year then it will be deemed to be a business.

What is a 'few'?

So to be clear
Can you sell silver items larger than 7.8gm if they are not
hallmarked
and can you otherwise still describe them as being silver?
No.
If it's over 7.8g and you sell it then it is 'white metal' - how good
does that sound?


About as good as 'Crystalline Carbon'.

If you don't sell it you can do anything you like at any weight.


Can a purchaser of unhallmarked silver themselves submit it to the assay
office?
It would make more logical sense if the seller issued something like an
assay token which could then be used by the customer to have it assessed
by them. That way he would know it wasn't a forgery. Present system
seems to be like buying a house based on the sellers survey only.

Despite all this, and the delay involved in sending items to the Assay
Office - I can't visit like some, I staunchly defend our system. It
gives an absolute gaurantee to the customer that the item is what it
purports to be and the recent climb down by the EU who tried to
rationalise our system out of existence was welcomed by me at least.

Well being a total newbie, I don't have any of the 'traditions' baggage,
so I guess I'm only looking at it in terms of:
Is it necessary?
Does it do what it claims?
Is it efficient?

Must confess I'm still struggling to see what it brings to the party
that the Trades Description Act doesn't. Also since it is up to the
seller to arrange, it can be forged.
As for efficiency, it would appear to be yet another rapidly increasing,
self perpetuating, bureacratic money mill.

The stamping of an article by the maker without an independant test
leaves the customer to decide how much they trust the maker, if they
have any idea who that is.

Yes, but exactly the same applies to everything else.

Without hallmarking we would be open to competition from every
fraudster and cheat going who could stamp a mark on any old crap. How
many customers are going to get a private assay done?

But fraudsters and cheats would just forge it anyway wouldn't they?


I vividly remember getting my punches and stamping my first piece -
still have it and am proud to be part of a system that is several
hundred years old.


I can understand that the tradition is respected and even that it can
add aesthetic value to the object, but won't the new EU system where you
only stamp it 925 etc, remove a lot of that anyway?

regards
chic

"vj" wrote in message
...
vj found this in rec.crafts.jewelry, from Terry
:

]The person I spoke to at Sheffield told me that the Assay Master decides
on
]the pricing, but didn't give me any other details.

now THAT is insane! at the very least, if the requirement is set by
law, and the office is run by the government, the prices should all be
the same!

I don't think that The Assay Office isn't part of the government Civil
Service set-up, it's part of the Crown and its employees are 'Crown
Servants'.

Like the Tower of London and HM Customs and Excise and MI-6 and Westminster
Abbey and various other bits of our arcane system that existed before the
idea of a separate government from the Crown...

--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe
Barbeques on fire by chalets past the headland
I've watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off Newborough
All this will pass like ice-cream on the beach
Time for tea

Ted Frater wrote in
:

Ive done this for 35 years and done everything I wanted as a metal
worker.as well as raised a family,
Hope this helps.
the buck stops with you so go for it.
Ted Frater


Hi Ted,
I didn't mean to give the impression that I'm new to jewellery work,
because as a coincidence, I also started 35 years ago!
In fact I registered my first maker's mark at Sheffield in 1969.
As a designer maker, together with my wife who also works with me, we've
managed to make a living at it, and still do.

In 1970, we opened a shop in Marbella, Spain, where we made jewellery,
metal sculpture, and leather belts with "sculptured" brass buckles.
In those days Marbella was one of the "in" places for the jet set.(we had
quite a few celebrities who became clients, various rock band members such
as Led Zepp or film stars Micheal Caine, Joan Collins, to name a few)
We made good money there and had a good time, but we wanted to move, so we
sold the shop at a good profit and came back to the UK.

In the UK we were probably busiest in the mid 1970's, doing various types
of jewellery including each week hundreds of wire rings, all going through
the Assay Office, even though many of the silver ones were under the weight
that required hallmarking.

I remember the Queen Elizabeth Silver Jubilee of 1977, everybody was
going crazy for the 1-ounce Ingots with the very large "spread" hallmarks
used as the main design feature.
The Assay Office made (and paid for) special oversized "composite" punches
incorporating the maker's mark together with the hallmarks. This was for
greater efficiency, as the volume of work was so big. It also insured that
all the marks were neatly in line with each other.

Since then I've also got a workshop here in France. We've done literally
hundreds of fairs, markets, street-selling, wholesale, retail, exhibitions,
you name it! Now though, I am only working on a part-time basis.

It's true that it is still possible to make money, but it's certainly not
what it used to be, partly because of the glut of very cheap stuff from
countries where labour costs are a tiny fraction of the UK's.

I think there must be a lot of young designer/makers who have problems
making enough to pay their own wages - I know some have to rely on finacial
help from their parents.

Regards,

Terry

Terry wrote:
Ted Frater wrote in
:

Ive done this for 35 years and done everything I wanted as a metal

worker.as well as raised a family,
Hope this helps.
the buck stops with you so go for it.
Ted Frater



Hi Ted,
I didn't mean to give the impression that I'm new to jewellery work,
because as a coincidence, I also started 35 years ago!
In fact I registered my first maker's mark at Sheffield in 1969.
As a designer maker, together with my wife who also works with me, we've
managed to make a living at it, and still do.

In 1970, we opened a shop in Marbella, Spain, where we made jewellery,
metal sculpture, and leather belts with "sculptured" brass buckles.
In those days Marbella was one of the "in" places for the jet set.(we had
quite a few celebrities who became clients, various rock band members such
as Led Zepp or film stars Micheal Caine, Joan Collins, to name a few)
We made good money there and had a good time, but we wanted to move, so we
sold the shop at a good profit and came back to the UK.

In the UK we were probably busiest in the mid 1970's, doing various types
of jewellery including each week hundreds of wire rings, all going through
the Assay Office, even though many of the silver ones were under the weight
that required hallmarking.

I remember the Queen Elizabeth Silver Jubilee of 1977, everybody was
going crazy for the 1-ounce Ingots with the very large "spread" hallmarks
used as the main design feature.
The Assay Office made (and paid for) special oversized "composite" punches
incorporating the maker's mark together with the hallmarks. This was for
greater efficiency, as the volume of work was so big. It also insured that
all the marks were neatly in line with each other.

Since then I've also got a workshop here in France. We've done literally
hundreds of fairs, markets, street-selling, wholesale, retail, exhibitions,
you name it! Now though, I am only working on a part-time basis.

It's true that it is still possible to make money, but it's certainly not
what it used to be, partly because of the glut of very cheap stuff from
countries where labour costs are a tiny fraction of the UK's.

I think there must be a lot of young designer/makers who have problems
making enough to pay their own wages - I know some have to rely on finacial
help from their parents.

Regards,

Terry




Yes, I did get the impression that you were new to this trade.
Apologies for this misunderstanding.
I just hate to see someone struggling just for tha lack of some knowhow,
wethwer its making techniques or the other essential , getting a fair
reward for ones efforts.
I registered my marks at the London assay office about the same time
1968/69, cant recall, and started out getting the local craft shops
interested in my work, regrettably they wanted it on sale or return ,
not cost effective even then, so a friend suggested I have a 3ft sq area
of his stall in the Portobello Rd in London in the summer of 1968. On my
1st day ! took £40.00, and have sold mainly retail ever since then.
London is a 240 mile return trip so to make it pay id sleep in the car
overnite and then do the Bayswater Rd Street art fair the next day.
there I had a 4ft by 4ft area of railings.
Did that every weekend rain or shine for 7 years.
Got somewhat tired of the driving so started a a Saturday market
locally at Lymington. that replaced the London venues and improved the
takings as well.
Early in the 1980's the larger dedicated craft fairs were growing and
I did my first big fair for 4 days.At Glastonbury.
This was a big improvement as I then had a working area where I actually
made stuff as well as sold . Needless to say I then had to have help.
then in 1984 I did the ist top end show Art In Action with a fully
integrated exhibition marquee I purpose built . this needed a 7.5 ton
truck plus living caravan to operate. As Id be away a week at a time 6
times a year. Making stock the rest of the time. I then started to make
larger pieces , mainly hollow ware , with dishes and salvers up to 2 ft
across in most metals. the silver ones weighed over 5 kgs. Well worth
hall marking. There I was seen by a craft organiser from Germany who
sponsored me to his show in 1990.
In 1987 I had the rare opportunity to buy up an old silversmiths
workshopthat was a complete jewelley drop stampers setup dating from
1851. The rest is history.
I made the drop stamp fully transportable so this was working throughout
Europe in the 1990's as well as in the Uk making commemorative medals
and plaques at events for events. This was the most rewarding in terms
of job satisfaction asc well as financial return.
The real buzz is getting comissions for projects , doing the die design
and pulling it all together.
Once the dies are made then one can proceed with the production. this
can sometimes run into the thousands any one design.
The main drop hammer is my Hazelwood and Dent Birmingham from 1880. A
very accurate machine . Its good enough to make proof coinage thereon.
Thouble is a £1.00 coin costs £2.00 to make. Not cost effective.
Best wishes to everyone.
Ted Frater Dorset UK.

Ted Frater wrote in
:

Yes, I did get the impression that you were new to this trade.
Apologies for this misunderstanding.
I just hate to see someone struggling just for tha lack of some
knowhow, wethwer its making techniques or the other essential ,
getting a fair reward for ones efforts.
I registered my marks at the London assay office about the same time
1968/69, cant recall, and started out getting the local craft shops
interested in my work, regrettably they wanted it on sale or return ,
not cost effective even then, so a friend suggested I have a 3ft sq
area of his stall in the Portobello Rd in London in the summer of
1968. On my 1st day ! took £40.00, and have sold mainly retail ever
since then. London is a 240 mile return trip so to make it pay id
sleep in the car overnite and then do the Bayswater Rd Street art fair
the next day. there I had a 4ft by 4ft area of railings.
Did that every weekend rain or shine for 7 years.
Got somewhat tired of the driving so started a a Saturday market
locally at Lymington. that replaced the London venues and improved the
takings as well.
Early in the 1980's the larger dedicated craft fairs were growing
and
I did my first big fair for 4 days.At Glastonbury.
This was a big improvement as I then had a working area where I
actually made stuff as well as sold . Needless to say I then had to
have help. then in 1984 I did the ist top end show Art In Action with
a fully integrated exhibition marquee I purpose built . this needed a
7.5 ton truck plus living caravan to operate. As Id be away a week at
a time 6 times a year. Making stock the rest of the time. I then
started to make larger pieces , mainly hollow ware , with dishes and
salvers up to 2 ft across in most metals. the silver ones weighed
over 5 kgs. Well worth hall marking. There I was seen by a craft
organiser from Germany who sponsored me to his show in 1990.
In 1987 I had the rare opportunity to buy up an old silversmiths
workshopthat was a complete jewelley drop stampers setup dating from
1851. The rest is history.
I made the drop stamp fully transportable so this was working
throughout Europe in the 1990's as well as in the Uk making
commemorative medals and plaques at events for events. This was the
most rewarding in terms of job satisfaction asc well as financial
return. The real buzz is getting comissions for projects , doing the
die design and pulling it all together.
Once the dies are made then one can proceed with the production. this
can sometimes run into the thousands any one design.

Hi Ted,
Thanks for posting these very interesting details. It's always good to hear
from people like you who probably not only enjoy what they are doing, but
also have a "feel" for the processes involved.

I love those manufacturing processes such as drop-hammer forging, coining,
press work and so on.
It's probably something to do with me being brought up in an industrial
area (near Sheffield). I have memories as a child in bed at night, I could
hear the rather ghostly bump sound of a distant steam-hammer. They were
working the night shift, forging steel ingots.
Never did get a drop-hammer, but several fly-presses, and I also have a
small inertia-wheel press. I like to make my own forming and embossing
tools and blanking dies, e.g. for cutting out small motifs from sheet
metal, and I much prefer these sort of processes to casting.

The main drop hammer is my Hazelwood and Dent Birmingham from 1880. A
very accurate machine . Its good enough to make proof coinage thereon.
Thouble is a £1.00 coin costs £2.00 to make. Not cost effective.
Best wishes to everyone.
Ted Frater Dorset UK.

Amusingly, there is a law here in France which says you have to inform the
authorities if you possess a press capable of pressing 5 tons or more!
Must be something to do with making coins! although they'd have to be very
small coins for only 5 tons!

Regards,

Terry

greens can be used with many vegetables;
green beans work especially well. Meat is not necessary every day, don?t
be afraid to alter any dish to vegetarian tastes.

1 premature baby, born dead
Large bunch of mustard greens
2 white onions, 1 cup chopped celery
Vegetable oil (or hog fat)
Salt, pepper, garlic, etc.

Lightly brown onions, celery, garlic and meat in large heavy pot.
Add a little water and the greens (which should be thoroughly cleaned and washed).
Smother slowly for at least 2 hours, adding small amounts of water
when it starts to stick.
Stir frequently.
When ready - serve with rice, grilled smoked sausage, green salad, and iced tea.
Coffee and apple pie then brandy.



Maternity Ward Pot Luck Dinner

If you can?t get anything fresh from the hospital, nursery, or morgue;
you can at least get rid of all the leftovers in your refrigerator.

1 - 2 lbs. cubed meat (human flesh, chicken, turkey, beef...)
1 -2 lbs. coarsely chopped vegetables
(carrots, potatoes, turnips, cauliflower, cabbage...)
Bell pepper
onions
garlic
ginger
salt pepper, etc.
Olive oil
butter

Brown the meat and some chopped onions, peppers, and garilic in olive oil,
place in baking dish, layer with vegetables seasoning and butter.
Bake at 325° for 30 - 45 minutes.
Serve with hot dinner rolls, fruit salad and sparkling water.



Bébé Buffet 1

Show off with whole roasted children replete with apples in mouths -
and babies? heads stuffed with wild rice. Or keep it simple with a
hearty main course such as stew, lasagna, or meat loaf.

Some suggestions

Pre-mie pot pies, beef stew, leg of lamb, stuffed chicken, roast pork spiral ham,
Cranberry pineapple salad, sweet potatoes in butter, vegetable platter, tossed salad with tomato and avocado, parsley new potatoes, spinich cucumber salad, fruit salad
Bran muffin

to cook
it to perfection!

1 high quality limb, rack, or roast
Potatoes, carrot
Oil
celery
onions
green onions
parsley
garlic
salt, pepper, etc
2 cups beef stock

Marinate meat (optional, not necessary with better cuts).
Season liberally and lace with garlic cloves by making incisions,
and placing whole cloves deep into the meat.
Grease a baking pan, and fill with a thick bed of onions,
celery, green onions, and parsley.
Place roast on top with fat side up.
Place uncovered in 500° oven for 20 minutes, reduce oven to 325°.
Bake till medium rare (150°) and let roast rest.
Pour stock over onions and drippings, carve the meat and
place the slices in the au jus.



Bisque à l?Enfant

Honor the memory of Grandma with this dish by utilizing her good
silver soup tureen and her great grandchildren (crawfish, crab or
lobster will work just as well, however this dish is classically
made with crawfish).

Stuffed infant heads, stuffed crawfish heads, stuffed crab or lobster shells;
make patties if shell or head is not available
(such as with packaged crawfish, crab, or headless baby).
Flour
oil
onions
bell peppers
garlic salt, pepper, etc.
3 cups chicken stock
2 sticks butter
3 tablespoons oil

First stuff the heads, or make the patties (see index)
th

1 tiny human, cut into pieces
2 cups flour
Onion, garlic
Salt
pepper
garlic powder
cayenne pepper
hot sauce, etc.
Oil for frying

Mix milk, eggs, hot sauce in a bowl, add chopped onion and garlic.
Season the meat liberally, and marinate for several hours.
Place seasoned flour in a paper or plastic shopping bag,
drop pieces in a few a time, shake to coat thoroughly,
then deep fry in hot oil (350°) for about 15 minutes.
Drain and place on paper towels.



Miscarriage with Mustard Greens

Why waste it? Otherwise, and in general, use ham or salt pork to season greens.
The technique of smothering greens can be used with many vegetables;
green beans work especially well. Meat is not necessary every day, don?t
be afraid to alter any dish to vegetarian tastes.

1 premature baby, born dead
Large bunch of mustard greens
2 white onions, 1 cup chopped celery
Vegetable oil (or hog fat)
Salt, pepper, garlic, etc.

Lightly brown onions, celery, garlic and meat in large heavy pot.
Add a little water and the greens (which should be thoroughly cleaned and washed).
Smother slowly for at least 2 hours, adding small amounts of water
when it starts to stick.
Stir frequently.
When ready - serve with rice, grilled smoked sausage, green salad, and iced tea.
Coffee and apple pie then brandy.



Maternity Ward Pot Luck Dinner

If you can?t get anything fresh from the hospital, nursery, or morgue;
you can at least get rid of all the leftovers in your refrigerator.

1 - 2 lbs. cubed meat (human flesh, chicken, turkey, beef...)
1 -2 lbs. coa