(no subject)

On Nov 27, 9:58*pm, lucretia borgia
wrote:
On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 15:44:05 -0800 (PST),
opined:

On Nov 27, 1:45 pm, lucretia borgia
wrote:

Likely, plus the fiendish part was maybe she could have been saved if
he hadn't run off to save his own neck first and foremost, leaving her
to slowly drown in the vehicle.

Were you there?

Elizabeth

Yes.

Bull. Fresh medial coverage does NOT count as being there.

Elizabeth

On Nov 28, 7:14*am, "Fred" wrote:
"Jangchub" wrote in message

...



On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 17:33:39 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Nov 27, 8:26 pm, Jangchub wrote:

He didn't murder her, he was cheating on his wife and left the scene
and reported it hours later. *It doesn't make it better, but I think
the Kennedy's *have had their fair share of early deaths, particularly
John.

Actually, he didn't report it. *The fishermen who found the car did.
But there's all sorts of weirdness around that accident and I don't
think anyone (including Kennedy himself) is in a position to
conclusively say what happened that night.

Elizabeth

True, but my main point was the Kennedy's have had their fair share of
early deaths, two of which were assasinations. *I think I was just
short of being old enough to remember the situation with Mary Jo, but
my hubs is a Kennedy Conspiracy buff.

Victoria

I never liked the conspiracy angle. Get 5 or 6 Greek men together and ask
them who had J.F.K. killed and they will all tell you, "Onassis", who later
found out his prize was dead in bed. Actually the only two that more or less
gained were Hoover and Johnson and they didn't have to spend a dime. I found
it strange that Oswald who tried to shoot the govenor weeks earlier and
missed was credited with shooting J.F.K. who was a moving target and way
further away. Oswald was a lousy shot who couldn't hit the govenor from
fifty feet even though the govenor was sitting in his chair reading a
newspaper.

My thoughts - Oswald was paid to bring the rifle to the depository. The real
shooter meets Oswald on the third? floor. The real shooter wearing gloves
does what he was paid to do and hands the rifle back to Oswald and tells
Oswald to hide the rifle and to follow him. Oswald stashes the rifle and
attempts to follow the real shooter but runs into the cop who is on his way
up. This delays Oswald long enough that by the time he exits the back door
the real shooter is driving away in the station wagon leaving Oswald whose
finger prints are all over the rifle behind to face the music. The get-away
vehicle is gone and Oswald realizes he has been set up and panics. The rest
is history - sort of - I think that if Oswald had made it to the get-away
car the real shooter or driver would sooner or later have snuffed him out.. I
have often wondered if the same station wagon picked up the other guy that
was on the grassy knoll. Face it - Oswald was not a complete idiot. If he
planned everything himself he would surely have planned a better get-away..
The guys in the station wagon now have a problem because Oswald is still
alive and could talk so Ruby is called upon to take Oswald out. All makes
for interesting conversation - eh wot??

I'm confused, Fred. You say you never liked the conspiracy angle, but
you have a conspiracy yourself?

Elizabeth

On Nov 28, 6:04*am, lucretia borgia
wrote:
On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 22:14:49 -0600, Dianne Lewandowski
opined:

wrote:
I think that there's something very hypocritical about being so upset
about Mary Jo Kopechne because she had a name and photos and not being
more upset about thousands of Iraqi families bombed as "collateral
damage" during this war, simply because they don't have names and
photos.

Elizabeth

Thank you.
Dianne

Except Dianne, I never said I was not sympathetic to the Iraqis. *

I don't believe I was talking to you specifically. But almost 40
years later, people are still having a fit about Mary Jo Kopechne and
it seems like people don't get nearly as upset about the millions of
people killed since then. I have trouble with the disproportionality
of that. It bothers me, especially since she was clearly not the
poor, innocent thing that people like to make her out to be.

It bothers me that Kennedy was never tried by a jury of his peers and
is therefore to be considered innocent yet public opinion has no
problem condemning him in spite of the enormous good he's accomplished
in the 40 years since then.

Public opinion, in general, will at the same time allow Bush to get
away with the senseless murder of thousands or at least not condemn
him as roundly, because there are no names and photographs, no huge
media hype.

Elizabeth

On Nov 28, 12:05*pm, lucretia borgia
wrote:
On Fri, 28 Nov 2008 08:31:07 -0800 (PST),
opined:



Actually, he didn't report it. *The fishermen who found the car did..
But there's all sorts of weirdness around that accident and I don't
think anyone (including Kennedy himself) is in a position to
conclusively say what happened that night.
Elizabeth

He was clearly driving, they left together. *Car in water, panic, runs
to find the Kennedy fixer. *She drowns. *

Um, none of that is actually clear. *It's all based on his testimony
from the next day and we don't know which of it is actually true. *He
could have been framed and participated in his own framing for all any
of us know.

I think he did report it, accompanied with his lawyer, the next
morning.



And as long as we're doling out responsibility, if the deputy who saw
the car back out of the drive and go speeding down the road to the
right had given chase or even bothered to investigate at all, he would
have seen the car in the water. *Why didn't he do his job? *Did he get
demoted or fined for dereliction of duty?

Didn't he go from one jurisdiction to another when he reached that
bridge ?



Nor was Kopechne a "girl." *She was a 29 year old professional who had
already been up to her ears in Washington politics. *People other than
Kennedy had plenty of reason to want her dead.

Elizabeth

Unfortunately, she is very dead which certainly was helpful to
Kennedy.

Sure, but that doesn't mean he purposely murdered her.

Elizabeth

wrote in message
...
On Nov 28, 12:05 pm, lucretia borgia
wrote:
On Fri, 28 Nov 2008 08:31:07 -0800 (PST),
opined:



Actually, he didn't report it. The fishermen who found the car did.
But there's all sorts of weirdness around that accident and I don't
think anyone (including Kennedy himself) is in a position to
conclusively say what happened that night.
Elizabeth

He was clearly driving, they left together. Car in water, panic, runs
to find the Kennedy fixer. She drowns.

Um, none of that is actually clear. It's all based on his testimony
from the next day and we don't know which of it is actually true. He
could have been framed and participated in his own framing for all any
of us know.

I think he did report it, accompanied with his lawyer, the next
morning.



And as long as we're doling out responsibility, if the deputy who saw
the car back out of the drive and go speeding down the road to the
right had given chase or even bothered to investigate at all, he would
have seen the car in the water. Why didn't he do his job? Did he get
demoted or fined for dereliction of duty?

Didn't he go from one jurisdiction to another when he reached that
bridge ?



Nor was Kopechne a "girl." She was a 29 year old professional who had
already been up to her ears in Washington politics. People other than
Kennedy had plenty of reason to want her dead.

Elizabeth

Unfortunately, she is very dead which certainly was helpful to
Kennedy.

Sure, but that doesn't mean he purposely murdered her.

Elizabeth


I have always thought that he was most probably too drunk to have a clue
what really happened. Why he was allowed to get in the car in the first
place is a mystery. IIRC it was his driver's car and he took the keys.

I do believe he caused a terrible tragedy and I believe he wasn't punished
the way someone else from another less influential and rich family might
have been, but I still think that 40 years later is time to forget. Not
forgive, just go on to the next.

There was an incident some years ago with Skagel (I'm not sure that's
spelled correctly) a cousin of his who allegedly murdered a teenage girl
with a gun. I don't remember the details but they can be looked up. He
did go to trial and was convicted but his rich and influential family had
the conviction overturned. He was retried a few years ago but never spent a
day in jail and lives here in South Florida doing absolutely nothing of
redeeming value. Him I still feel disgusted by.

Lucille

"lucretia borgia" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 28 Nov 2008 12:36:42 -0500, "Lucille" lzoltynospam@now at
comcast..net opined:



I have always thought that he was most probably too drunk to have a clue
what really happened. Why he was allowed to get in the car in the first
place is a mystery. IIRC it was his driver's car and he took the keys.

I do believe he caused a terrible tragedy and I believe he wasn't punished
the way someone else from another less influential and rich family might
have been, but I still think that 40 years later is time to forget. Not
forgive, just go on to the next.

There was an incident some years ago with Skagel (I'm not sure that's
spelled correctly) a cousin of his who allegedly murdered a teenage girl
with a gun. I don't remember the details but they can be looked up. He
did go to trial and was convicted but his rich and influential family had
the conviction overturned. He was retried a few years ago but never spent
a
day in jail and lives here in South Florida doing absolutely nothing of
redeeming value. Him I still feel disgusted by.

Lucille

Whatever Ethel's maiden name was, that's the name you (and I) are
looking for, they are a family of lawyers I believe. It happened on
Halloween.

The name is Skakel and yes, that's the jerk I'm talking about.

Then don't forget the William Smith episode - can't be all this smoke
and no fire. Huge wealth and power corrupts.

As to William Smith, I have no idea what happened to him so it's apparent he
isn't doing anything to make the world a better place either.
..

"lucretia borgia" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 28 Nov 2008 12:36:42 -0500, "Lucille" lzoltynospam@now at
comcast..net opined:



I have always thought that he was most probably too drunk to have a clue
what really happened. Why he was allowed to get in the car in the first
place is a mystery. IIRC it was his driver's car and he took the keys.

I do believe he caused a terrible tragedy and I believe he wasn't punished
the way someone else from another less influential and rich family might
have been, but I still think that 40 years later is time to forget. Not
forgive, just go on to the next.

There was an incident some years ago with Skagel (I'm not sure that's
spelled correctly) a cousin of his who allegedly murdered a teenage girl
with a gun. I don't remember the details but they can be looked up. He
did go to trial and was convicted but his rich and influential family had
the conviction overturned. He was retried a few years ago but never spent
a
day in jail and lives here in South Florida doing absolutely nothing of
redeeming value. Him I still feel disgusted by.

Lucille

Whatever Ethel's maiden name was, that's the name you (and I) are
looking for, they are a family of lawyers I believe. It happened on
Halloween.

Then don't forget the William Smith episode - can't be all this smoke
and no fire. Huge wealth and power corrupts.



I googled William Smith to see what he has been doing for the last few
years. He's a doctor and apparently he's doing rehab with victims of
landmines so he's at least trying to do something good.

"lucretia borgia" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 28 Nov 2008 14:23:18 -0500, "Lucille" lzoltynospam@now at
comcast..net opined:


I googled William Smith to see what he has been doing for the last few
years. He's a doctor and apparently he's doing rehab with victims of
landmines so he's at least trying to do something good.


Sheesh, sometimes my memory still works. Yes, that is good works,
not that he caused a death.


Gee--I would have known you meant that without the disclaimer! RD&H

"lucretia borgia" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 28 Nov 2008 13:40:08 -0600, Jangchub
opined:


Do you have any idea how fast a car goes into the water? Even if he
immediately called for help she'd have died. People die all the time
here in TX where we have flash floods with just about every hard rain.
People insist on driving over one inch of water to their death. Water
drags you down toot sweet. I'm not saying Ted was an angel, but he
certainly didn't preclude her safety by leaving. It takes seconds,
not minutes to drown.
Victoria



You are comparing apples to oranges. A car swept by flood waters is
entirely different to one going off the road into water and gently
settling down into same.



I think you're correct. Every few months we have a news story about a car
driving into a canal here in FL. It's very easy when your speeding along
I-95, where the speed limit is 75, to go off the road and into the water.
A lot of the time there is actually enough time to get out of the car and
swim to the surface. They even sell a little gizmo to put in the car that
supposedly will break the window even under the pressure of the water.

L

On 11/28/08 3:25 PM, in article , "Lucille"
lzoltynospam@now at comcast..net wrote:


"lucretia borgia" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 28 Nov 2008 13:40:08 -0600, Jangchub
opined:


Do you have any idea how fast a car goes into the water? Even if he
immediately called for help she'd have died. People die all the time
here in TX where we have flash floods with just about every hard rain.
People insist on driving over one inch of water to their death. Water
drags you down toot sweet. I'm not saying Ted was an angel, but he
certainly didn't preclude her safety by leaving. It takes seconds,
not minutes to drown.
Victoria



You are comparing apples to oranges. A car swept by flood waters is
entirely different to one going off the road into water and gently
settling down into same.



I think you're correct. Every few months we have a news story about a car
driving into a canal here in FL. It's very easy when your speeding along
I-95, where the speed limit is 75, to go off the road and into the water.
A lot of the time there is actually enough time to get out of the car and
swim to the surface. They even sell a little gizmo to put in the car that
supposedly will break the window even under the pressure of the water.

L



We sell lots of those "life hammers" at work.


Cheryl