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How was this made?



 
 
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  #21  
Old January 18th 07, 02:41 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
mbstevens
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Posts: 165
Default How was this made?

On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 17:11:23 +0000, Peter W.. Rowe, wrote:

Need I go on? I'm just getting started...


No, but on the other hand I have seen casts of poppy seed and superglue
granulation that would fool the eye on an image with no more resolution
than this one. Little roundy pattern bumps should be no problem at all.


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  #22  
Old January 18th 07, 02:41 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Dale Porter
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Default How was this made?

wrote in message
...

Abrasha wrote:

You see, cast iron is very brittle, and during battle a direct blow to
the tsuba would simply break it, and possibly cost the poor fellow his life!


No more than he deserved! The tsuba isn't a quillion, its function (if
anything) is to do with the grip of the hands, not for deflecting blows.



Indeed! Sure it has a small part to play in deflecting blows, but it is not it's
primary purpose by any stretch of the imagination.
And besides, a Samurai worth his salt would be able to block blows with his
sword, with or without a Tsuba.

Back to the artistry involved though, my Sensei once brought into the Dojo a
sword that was given to him by his Sensei (who was one
of the Emperors guards). It is about 500 years old, and had some stunning
craftmanship throughout (not to mention marks on the blade
itself from real life-and-death battles).

Cheers,
Dale



  #23  
Old January 18th 07, 06:59 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Marilee J. Layman
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Default How was this made?

On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 04:47:28 GMT, mbstevens
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 02:23:59 +0000, mbstevens wrote:
I suppose the reliefs could
have been pressed into undercut grooves, as the classical ones were, but
then they'd have to recut the top of the reliefs because of the hammering.


They could, actually, press down a slightly domed relief with
something soft to expand it inside an undercut. But I see the fit as a
little too perfect, and the metal around the relief has not even a hint
of being hammered to fit.

I did enlarge the image to 200%, and saw a slight fish pattern. This
argues for your theory, but I still have doubts. Anything can be cast.


I know someone who could reproduce that picture with the item made in
polyclay.
--
Marilee J. Layman
http://mjlayman.livejournal.com/

  #24  
Old January 18th 07, 06:59 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
mbstevens
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Posts: 165
Default How was this made?

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 01:14:55 +0000, Mick wrote:

It's hard to tell from the photo, but the background appears to be a
fine nanako (fish roe) pattern in concentric circles. Is it possible to
get detail that fine from a casting, or would that need to be added
after casting?


Given the new photographs, I think it would

Here are unsharp masked blowups of a couple of details from the new images.
The dragon tail and nose have the kinds of imperfections I would expect
to see in this kind of work.
http://www.mbstevens.com/test/dragontail.jpg

The worst imperfection on the other one is he
http://www.mbstevens.com/test/leaftip.jpg

The stamped pattern is more convincing in the blowups, but I still believe
the one with the bamboo shoots and leaves could be a casting worked
after casting with a stamp. The other guards you posted are more
convincing to me. Obviously no one can tell for sure without
photomicrographs, or having it in their hand with a magnifier.
Given the new photos, I certainly believe it is possible that it is the
real thing.


  #25  
Old January 18th 07, 06:59 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Abrasha
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Posts: 298
Default How was this made?

Andy Dingley wrote:
Abrasha wrote:

You see, cast iron is very brittle, and during battle a direct blow to
the tsuba would simply break it, and possibly cost the poor fellow his life!


No more than he deserved! The tsuba isn't a quillion, its function (if
anything) is to do with the grip of the hands, not for deflecting blows.




Oh yes it is.

The late John M. Yumoto, one of the foremost authorities regarding
Samurai swords, founder of the "Northern California Japanese Sword Club"
(see below) and author of the seminal book about Samurai swords: "The
Samurai Sword, A Handbook" Charles E. Tuttle Company, 1958, wrote on
page 83 of that book:

"2 Guard (Tsuba). The guard protects the palm of the hand when holding
the sword. ..."

John Yumoto was also a good friend of Robert E.Haynes, who was the
Samurai sword and "kodogu" expert working with the auction house of
Butterfield and Butterfield in San Francisco in the early 80's. He held
a number of "highly important" sword and kodogu auctions between 1981
and 1985 in San Francisco. I went to all of them and bought several
tsuba over the years.

In the first auction catalogue of November 1981 Dr. Kazutaro Torigoye
wrote: "The tsuba (sword guard), one of the earliest parts of the
Japanese sword, was originally almost purely utilitarian, being the
instrument that protected the fist from the opponent's blade, sliding
after a parry."

Kazutaro Torigoye and Robert Haynes coauthored "Tsuba, An Aesthetic Study"

The main parts on the Japanese sword mounting to prevent the hands from
slipping along the "tsuka" (hilt), were the various tapes made of silk,
leather or cotton, that were bound around the hilt in a variety of ways.
Before a battle or duel, the warrior would typically wet the bindings
to increase the security of his grip.

Underneath these bindings, the "menuki" (hilt ornaments) would also
serve as a possible additional prevention against the hands slipping.


Northern California Japanese Sword Club

The NCJSC is a non-profit organization dedicated to the study and
preservation of Japanese swords, related items and arts.

The NCJSC was founded by John M. Yumoto (among others) in the early
1960's, and incorporated as a nonprofit educational organization in
June of 1976. Though based in California's San Francisco Bay Area, our
membership spans the United States, and the world. Each August we host
the annual San Francisco Token-Kai, recognized as one of the finest
"Japanese Sword Shows" in the United States. The NCJSC publishes a
monthly newsletter "To-Ron", which is mailed to our membership
approximately one week before our monthly meetings.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

  #26  
Old January 18th 07, 06:59 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Abrasha
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Posts: 298
Default How was this made?

mbstevens wrote:
On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 17:11:23 +0000, Peter W.. Rowe, wrote:

Need I go on? I'm just getting started...


No, but on the other hand I have seen casts of poppy seed and superglue
granulation that would fool the eye on an image with no more resolution
than this one. Little roundy pattern bumps should be no problem at all.



We're now talking about "casts of poppy seed and superglue granulation",
and "little roundy pattern bumps".

I rest my case.

Goto san turns in his grave.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

  #27  
Old January 18th 07, 06:59 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Abrasha
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Posts: 298
Default How was this made?

mbstevens wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 04:30:56 +0000, Peter W.. Rowe, wrote:

In short, go with Abrasha's fine description.


One possibility that I didn't think of in my other post to you was that
occasionally the reliefs were attached with pins. This is also a
possibility, although the tiny leaf tips and such seem to be very flat to
the background. I'm still going with a contemporary casting.


Hmmm,

You conveniently added the word "contemporary" now. Curious where you
suddenly got that idea.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

  #28  
Old January 18th 07, 06:59 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Abrasha
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Posts: 298
Default How was this made?

Mick wrote:


Here is a close-up view of the tsuba in my original post:
http://micknewton.smugmug.com/photos/123764979-O.jpg

And, here are a few more that appear to have been made using similar
techniques:

http://micknewton.smugmug.com/photos/123541201-O.jpg

http://micknewton.smugmug.com/photos/123764988-O.jpg


That tsuba can also be seen he
http://www.nihonto.com/tsuba5.html


http://micknewton.smugmug.com/photos/123764990-O.jpg

This one is a little different. It's a simpler piece, consisting of a
nanako background with two small mon (family crests) in gold:
http://micknewton.smugmug.com/photos/123541196-O.jpg



All of these tsuba show the so called "shakudo-nanako".

The last picture is of a tsuba that is not unlike tsuba of the famous
Goto school.

"Goto Yujo (1453-1512), worked for the Ashikaga Shogun Yoshimasa making
mounts in the classical "tachi" style, which consisted of black fishroe
ground (shakudo-nanako) with raised gilt borders (somewhat visible in
the photo) and decoration such as badges (mon) (clearly visible in the
photo). This fashion remained the only correct mounting for swords worn
in court ceremonial down to 1868, when the wearing of swords at court
was abolished by the Emperor Meiji.

The Goto later developed other styles, generally retaining the shakudo
nanako ground, which included gambolling lions (shishi), dragons, and
waves of clouds, peonies or chrysanthemums and richly encrusted scenes
in gold, silver and other varieties of copper alloys.

Their style of ornament may have inspired other schools or set a fashion
for whgich there was a great demand, for certainly many copies are to be
met with, some very fine but most rather mediocre."

From: "Japanes Arma and Armor, Crown Publishers Inc., New York 1969.
Library of Congress Catalogue Card Number 79-79521.


--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com


PS.

This is the last thing I am going to say about tsuba. In your original
post you asked how this could have been made "Was it cast, carved,
or..?" I answered the question as well as I could. Yet, you seem more
interested in opinions of a number of people who clearly (in my opinion
of course ) do not know what they are talking about.

My credentials?

I have made a study of Japanese arms and armor over a period of about 35
years. I own about 40 books about the subject, and have read many more.
I have traveled to Japan in 1986 and visited several collections. I
travelled twice to Venice, Italy where the largest collection of
Japanese arms and armor outside Japan is housed, in the Museo Orientale.
I have seen thousands of tsubas, handled hundreds, from the finest
examples to the crappiest of reproductions.

I am by no means an expert about the subject. Yet I categorically
state, that the opinions of mbstevens, ted frater, dale porter and
dingbat (a fitting handle) as to how the tsuba in question was made, are
all wrong!

Your tsuba, as far as I can tell from the photo, without having the
advantage of examining it up close in the hand, is made of iron plate,
and manipulated entirely by hand, with inlay of gold and shakudo. (And
yes stevens my pal, it's called inlay, even though it is over the steel.

  #29  
Old January 18th 07, 11:39 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
mbstevens
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Posts: 165
Default How was this made?

On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 05:59:22 +0000, mbstevens wrote:
... and leaves could be a casting worked
after casting with a stamp.


That should be

...and leaves could be chasing with a stamp worked after casting.

  #30  
Old January 18th 07, 11:39 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
mbstevens
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Posts: 165
Default How was this made?

On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 05:59:33 +0000, Abrasha wrote:

We're now talking about "casts of poppy seed and superglue granulation",
and "little roundy pattern bumps".


We're talking, at this point in the thread, about the originally posted
low resolution image of an object and more particularly the pattern on the
object's background. Try to keep up.

(Now newer, higher resolution images have been posted, and the upper part
of the thread is again active. I hope you don't plan to claim that my
earlier arguments should have been based on the new images. Try to be
aware of the time line, which won't always follow the architecture of the
thread. If you get confused, ask me. I'm here to help.)

I rest my case.


Which is huffing, name dropping, appeals to your own authority,
and very little attention to the actual images before everyone's eyes that
can actually be argued about. I do notice that the deadly Pforzheim
attack is missing this go-round; thank you very, very much.






 




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