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Ebay Diamonds



 
 
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  #21  
Old June 23rd 08, 06:03 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
William Black
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 77
Default Ebay Diamonds


"Abrasha" wrote in message
...
William Black wrote:


deBeers doesn't operate directly in the USA because their normal business
practices would be considered illegal there...



They just opened a store last week across the street from me.

http://tinyurl.com/66f7wa


'deBeers International Jewelers' is not the de Beers diamond cartel.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.



Ads
  #22  
Old June 23rd 08, 06:03 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
William Black
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 77
Default Ebay Diamonds


"Peter W.. Rowe," wrote in message
...
On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 12:27:42 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry "William Black"
wrote:


I understand that their sucess was challenged until they managed to get
the
output of the Sierra Leonian mines under their control.


Sierra Leone is/was hardly the only diamond source operating outside of
the
DeBeers line of control. Venezuela, Canada, Australia, and many of the
Russian
sources sell, or have sold, outside of the DeBeers organization to one
degree or
another. DeBeers is no longer a total monopoly. But they do still
control the
majority of the sources, and that seems to be enough.


My understanding is that the huge Kimberly mine in Austrailia and most of
the Russian sources now sell through the de Beers cartel.

de Beers 'invented' eternity rings to sell the vast quantities of small
gemstone quality diamonds produced by the Kimberly.

It makes a great deal of sense to sell this way. It turns out that diamonds
are actually no more scarce than any other gemstone.

That's why I keep waiting for the 'other shoe to drop' with respect to
artificial diamonds.

As soon as they show up in any serious numbers the whole diamond business
may well come crashing down around our ears.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.





It is the 'unregistered sellers' that were causing them the problem.


Or any sellers working outside of their organization, as noted above.
But for
many diamond sellers, it doesn't make too much sense to work outside of
DeBeers,
since often they'll simply get the best prices through them...

Perhaps the greatest long term threat to DeBeers isn't the "out of
network"
sales of rough diamonds. It may well be the developing field of synthetic
diamonds. If available in enough quantitiy, at high enough quality, to
cause
serious competition with natural diamonds but at lower cost, the
implications
for DeBeers could be significant. Part of their response to this has been
the
aggressive work to promote DeBeers as a brand name for diamonds, rather
than
just a source, as well as a lot of research in developing methods of
accurately
detecting the synthetic diamonds. Much of the current crop of yellow
fancy
colors, and perhaps the other fancies also being made, ARE identifiable,
at
least by a good gem lab if not by the average gemologist. But the
colorless
high quality stones that may be coming down the line in the future could
be a
LOT more difficult to identify with certainty, and if we end up where a
diamond
can no longer be absolutely identified as natural versus synthetic, the
effect
on diamond prices could be dramatic, at least in the higher qualities
where this
is most likely to be an issue.

deBeers doesn't operate directly in the USA because their normal business
practices would be considered illegal there...


Not any longer. The Antitrust / monopoly issues the justice department
had with
DeBeers for many years were, so far as I know, settled via a rather large
class
action lawsuit earlier this year. virtually anyone who'd bought diamonds,
either wholesale or retail, in the U.S. during the past ten years or
something
like that, could, if they wished, file a claim to get some of the price
back.
For large dealers and sellers, it made sense to file claims. For most
individuals, the payment funds would have been sufficiently diluted as to
make
the end payout not much worth the paperwork. But whatever, the lawyers
made a
lot of money on the suit, as they always due, and since that settlement
agreement, DeBeers is no longer under that cloud of prosecution here in
the
U.S. Even the top executives, who for many years didn't travel to the
U.S. to
avoid arrest here, apparently are now again free to do so if they wish.
At
least, that's what the news stories said. I don't have all the details
handy.
But as Abrasha has pointed out, they are now opening offices and stores in
the
U.S.

Peter



  #23  
Old June 24th 08, 02:24 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
papa smurf
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2
Default Ebay Diamonds

On Jun 22, 5:35*pm, "Peter W.. Rowe,"
wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 12:27:42 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry "William Black"

wrote:

Oh yes. *Look up 'Interstate comerce in the USA' some time


I understand that their sucess was challenged until they managed to get the
output of the Sierra Leonian mines under their control.


Sierra Leone is/was hardly the only diamond source operating outside of the
DeBeers line of control. *Venezuela, Canada, Australia, and many of the Russian
sources sell, or have sold, outside of the DeBeers organization to one degree or
another. *DeBeers is no longer a total monopoly. *But they do still control the
majority of the sources, and that seems to be enough.



It is the 'unregistered sellers' that were causing them the problem.


Or any sellers working outside of their organization, as noted above. * But for
many diamond sellers, it doesn't make too much sense to work outside of DeBeers,
since often they'll simply get the best prices through them... *

Perhaps the greatest long term threat to DeBeers isn't the "out of network"
sales of rough diamonds. *It may well be the developing field of synthetic
diamonds. *If available in enough quantitiy, at high enough quality, to cause
serious competition with natural diamonds but at lower cost, the implications
for DeBeers could be significant. *Part of their response to this has been the
aggressive work to promote DeBeers as a brand name for diamonds, rather than
just a source, as well as a lot of research in developing methods of accurately
detecting the synthetic diamonds. * Much of the current crop of yellow fancy
colors, and perhaps the other fancies also being made, ARE identifiable, at
least by a good gem lab if not by the average gemologist. *But the colorless
high quality stones that may be coming down the line in the future could be a
LOT more difficult to identify with certainty, and if we end up where a diamond
can no longer be absolutely identified as natural versus synthetic, the effect
on diamond prices could be dramatic, at least in the higher qualities where this
is most likely to be an issue.

deBeers doesn't operate directly in the USA because their normal business
practices would be considered illegal there...


Not any longer. *The Antitrust / monopoly issues the justice department had with
DeBeers for many years were, so far as I know, settled via a rather large class
action lawsuit earlier this year. *virtually anyone who'd bought diamonds,
either wholesale or retail, in the U.S. during the past ten years or something
like that, could, if they wished, file a claim to get some of the price back.
For large dealers and sellers, it made sense to file claims. *For most
individuals, the payment funds would have been sufficiently diluted as to make
the end payout not much worth the paperwork. *But whatever, the lawyers made a
lot of money on the suit, as they always due, and since that settlement
agreement, *DeBeers is no longer under that cloud of prosecution here in the
U.S. *Even the top executives, who for many years didn't travel to the U.S. to
avoid arrest here, apparently are now again free to do so if they wish. *At
least, that's what the news stories said. *I don't have all the details handy.
But as Abrasha has pointed out, they are now opening offices and stores in the
U.S.

Peter


Ok... Wow... I wasn't expecting to start a whole debate over my
questions. haha... Peter... Thank you for your advice. I did manage
to read over everything you have written. However, I didn't see a
place where I can do a reply to everyone so I thought I would just
post something somewhere... I will admit, I have not read everyone's
response here yet, but I wanted to clarify a few things...

1. I'm in the US
2. I'm not a retailer
3. I'm a simple consumer looking to get a diamond for an engagement
ring.
4. I have no desire to send my diamond(s) across the boarder.
haha...

Ok so now that is out there. I have been shopping around. I know
what I like when I see it. I will list the diamond specs that I have
chosen below. When I compare prices, same diamond specs, from the net
to a store retailer it really makes a significant difference in price
(as I am sure you are all aware).

Color: DEF (Colorless)
Clarity: VS1 and up
Carrots: 1.5 - 2.0
Certified GIA
Cut: Excellent

I have seen diamonds, with the specs above, on-line retailing at 6-7k
less than what I see them in the stores.

I will definitely look into Blue Nile, and some of the other sites
listed. If anyone has any other reputable on-line store suggestions
this would be very helpful.

Thank you all for taking such an interest in my questions. I
appreciate the feed back.

  #24  
Old June 24th 08, 04:26 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Peter W.. Rowe,
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 355
Default Ebay Diamonds

On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 18:24:59 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry papa smurf
wrote:


Ok so now that is out there. I have been shopping around. I know
what I like when I see it. I will list the diamond specs that I have
chosen below. When I compare prices, same diamond specs, from the net
to a store retailer it really makes a significant difference in price
(as I am sure you are all aware).

Color: DEF (Colorless)
Clarity: VS1 and up
Carrots: 1.5 - 2.0
Certified GIA
Cut: Excellent

I have seen diamonds, with the specs above, on-line retailing at 6-7k
less than what I see them in the stores.


yup. Depends on the stores. In the old days, everyone sold diamonds for a
retail markup over wholesale that fell somewhere betwee 2 to 3 times the
wholesale cost. This is still the business model for much of the retail world
Everything from furnature to clothing to appliances, etc. Some things,
especially inexpensive items, get marked up a much higher percentage, so the
earnings per square foot of the retail space justify displaying the things. But
the internet has changed that, as I explained. Many retailers trying to be more
competative, have had to lower their margins (some raise the markup on the
mountings and everything other than the center diamond in order to still make
some profit on the sale), while others, especially the most visible, with the
most advertising and highest reputation (think Tiffany, Cartier, and many more),
have no reason to lower their profit margin. So comparing what you can find on
the internet diamond market with stores like that, you can often save as much as
half. For that savings, though, you loose the ability to sit with a sale
person, looking at multiple stones and having the fine nuances between them
explained. Your ability to make a choice is much more limited on the net,
simply because you're buying by the numbers and stats on a cert, rather than
based on the actual look of the stone, which often can be quite a bit more
subtle in variations and appeal, than the numbers themselves indicate.

A few comments on your chosen quality. Just my opinions as a longtime jeweler
and gemologist, and others may disagree. Well, Ok. Fair warning. Not just a
few comments. I get wordy when I do this, and this'll get long. But read it
please, carefully. there's 35 years of experience and training behind the
following tome... (grin)

Color: DEF (Colorless)


Color at DEF is wonderful. Color is something that affects the look of the
stone at any distance, so if you can see the stone at all, what you see is
affected by the color. But you pay for this, and pay quite a bit. Remember
that the color grades are placed as close together as the human eye can, with
training and ideal lighting, distinguish. Once a stone is mounted, while a
trained and experienced jeweler will see the difference between a D color stone
and a G color one, it's not actually all that great, and in most light, the
average consumer, even with stones side by side, would be hard pressed to see
much difference. And just because one stone is a slightly softer and warmer
tone (the lower color grade) doesn't mean it's any less beautiful. Dropping
down from a DEF to a G or H can save you thousands, and if you spend that on a
slightly larger size instead, you might find you prefer that difference. This
is the sort of decision where looking at several stones in the company of an
expert who is trying to earn his/her profit margin, not only can help you, but
can help justify that profit margin.

Clarity: VS1 and up


Clarity at VS1 and up. OK, that's nice. But why? Remember that clarity grades
of SI and better mean the inclusions in the stone are no longer visible to the
naked eye, at least in the face up position, which is what affects the look.
Inclusions get a bad rap. If highly included, a stone can indeed look poor, but
if you think of inclusions as the features mother nature left there, evidence of
the way the stone was formed, and distinguishing birthmarks that make a stone
completely unique from all other stones, then the appeal or lack of it of a
stone due to it's inclusions changes quite a bit. In some cases, inclusions can
be fascinating all by themselves. Some are just plain cracks and fissures,
sure. But others are individual different diamond crystals imbedded in the
stone, or crystals of other minerals (garnet, for example) in the diamond. These
can be quite fascinating, and hardly a cause to denegrate the desireability of a
given stone. Because diamond sellers (from DeBeers down to the jewelers and
everyone in between) wish to sell more costly diamonds, the whole rarity factor
gets a lot of air play. Very clean stones are indeed more rare than stones with
a few more inclusions. You pay a LOT for that rarity. But it's not something
you can actually see in normal use. You need a magnifier or microscope to see
the difference. Most consumers, shown a VS2 and a VVS2 (much cleaner) can't see
even the inclusions in the VS2 without help, and the difference between the
stones ends up having to be taken on faith. So the sales person says this high
clarity stone is a better stone and costs more. True. But better for whom? if
you're buying rarity, then indeed it's better for you. If, however, you're
buying an engagement diamond who's purpose is to adorn, and to symbolize a
relationship, and all the rest it's going to mean, then it's possible rarity or
the finances attached to that, are not very important, or shouldn't be. I'm
not saying you should buy a highly included stone. But take the time to look at
clarity options, and try to tune out the sales people who tell you a higher
clarity is always better. it's not. It's more costly, which is better for the
sales people. it's only better for you if you actually can appreciate it and
it means something to you other than some ephemeral perception of value.

Remember, by the way, that diamonds, for all their hype, are not actually all
that rare a gemstone. They're mined on every continent on earth, by the
millions of carats per year. While not common, and certainly not common in the
much rarer larger gems and fine qualities, they are still common enough that
the internet has been able to turn them into a commodity with almost standard
market pricing. Just try to find that sort of price structure with any of the
truely rare gem materials.

While I'll now backtrack a bit and agree with you that a VS1 stone is a very
nice and pretty diamond, I'd advise being more flexible here. Some of the SI1
stones are also very pretty, for less money, and the savings then can go to a
diamond better in other respects, or a nicer mounting, or perhaps towards the
home or furnature you and your new bride might need.

As to BETTER than a VS1, I'd actually advise against going better than that.
Diamonds in an engagement ring are subject to substantial wear and tear. Despite
the common perceptions, diamond is NOT indestructable. In fact, if you look
carefully at almost any diamond that's been worn for a few years, you'll find
minor abrasions, tiny nicks and chips on the girdle, or other evidence that the
stone is not brand new. Most of these things are often tiny and very hard to
see, and you need a loupe or microscope to see them. But they all affect the
clarity grade. Things that small on the surface of the stone don't much affect
the grade of, say, a VS2 or lower. Some few of them might knock a VS1 down to a
VS2.

But in the VVS grades, it becomes almost a certainty that eventually, your
bride's VVS1 or VVS2 or better diamond will no longer be that grade, but a VS1
or lower unless you get it recut. The difference in appearance, durability, or
utility as diamond jewelry is none at all. The only difference with these high
clarity grades is that they are rarer, and cost a lot more. You get nothing but
the added cost and rarity for your money with them, and you'll have the
assurance that this distinction will most likely be lost in time. This is not
true with the more modest clarity grades (VS1 and lower), which have a fair
chance of retaining their quality over time unless they suffer really
significant damage somehow (which also can happen, but that's what insurance is
for). My recommendation would be for a clarity between SI1 and VS1. No
higher. And if SI1, you want to look at it with a microscope or loupe and see
if you actually like the stone. They can vary in appeal, which the cert won't
show.

Carrots: 1.5 - 2.0


"Carrots" are a tasty root vegetable. Carats are a gem weight. 5 of them to a
gram to be exact. (and just to complete the set, "karats" is a measure of gold
purity)

For many women, more of these puppies seems to be better. Go figure. (grin) It
may be worth considering a larger stone for a given price, by cutting some other
less visible quality aspect. Or perhaps not. But something to consider. Do
note that popular demand for given sizes is driven by the group mentality and
DeBeers marketing. 30 years ago, most engagement rings were under a half carat
in size, and brides were quite happy with that. Now it seems DeBeers has
convinced a lot of people they need to spend a whole boatload of money on the
diamond, and it HAS to be over a carat, or more than that if you really want to
keep up with the Joneses. OK. Fine. Just understand that this desire is
driven by one of the most persistant and successful advertisng/marketing
campaigns in history. In 1900, few people got married with much more than a
plain gold wedding band. THAT is the real tradition. The wealthy often did
more, as usual, but that was more the exception than the rule. Even among the
wealthy then, the idea of a diamond engagement ring was pretty unusual. The
difference between then and now is, as I said, marketing and the fact that the
public, like any good flock of sheep, has followed the DeBeers prodding into now
insisting that they want these things. It's real enough, of course, that even
when we know it's a contrived and manufactured desire without a true historical
root (other than the brief 20th century), we still want em, and the brides want
them, and will be disappointed if we don't play along. Fine. Just understand
what all your hard earned cash is actually paying for here.

Certified GIA


See prior discussion on coice of labs. I like GIA and prefer them or AGS as
well.

Cut: Excellent


This one gets into one of the great areas of vagueness in diamonds. Good
cutting affects, as does color, everything you see about the stone, at virtually
any distance. In some respects, it's one of the most important aspects of the
quality of a diamond or other gem, yet unlike the other "C", on the GIA scale at
least, it doesn't actually have a precise grade. That's unfortunate. The AGS
certs DO give cutting a grade you can use to compare one stone with another,
which is one reason I like their certs. But even then, really judging cut from
a piece of paper is difficult at best. The quality of cutting is the result of
a number of factors, from craftsmanship to optical performance of the gem.

The basics of cut grading go like this:

If the largest possible round brilliant cut diamond is fashioned from the rough
stone, the result will have a larger than desireable table facet, shallower than
desired crown facets, and a somewhat deeper than desire pavilion. It will
maximize both weight and width for that crystal (which is what determines the
cost per carat for that given color and clarity.) The result is that a stone
cut to the ideal proportions, with the right angles and table size, etc etc,
will be slightly smaller in diameter, and weigh a bit less. Same end cost for
the stone, but because it weighs less, the cost per carat is then higher. That's
the simple economics of the proportions. Add in the factors of higher levels of
craftsmanship costing a bit more, and you get why better cutting makes a stone
more expensive.

your choices are these. You can buy a stone with poorer cutting, sometimes
called a spread stone, and what you get will be, and look, larger. Some people
prefer that, and for them this increase in diameter is more important than the
fact that doing this makes the stone less optically efficient, and makes it not
as good looking. For these folks, big is everything. The better cut stone
will be brighter looking, with more of a sense of "movement" or scintillation
and sparkle as the light changes, the viewer or the stone moves, or the like.
For my money and preference, at least, I want the cutting to be as good as
possible. As a craftsperson, I find it uncomfortable that someone might take a
material for which the price, percieved value, and marketplace is pretty much
manufactured, and then not at least give it the best possible look for the
material. I know that in the real world, that's not a position everyone will
agree with. But I'm a craftsman. Good cutting is for me a matter of ethics on
the part of the cutter, even if it's hard to really defend that view. Ethics
has little to do with it, and craftsmanship usually doesn't either. it's
economics, in the end. But my preference for good cutting remains. Personally,
I'd pretty much insist on a stone that has proportions close enough to the
theoretical ideals as to be able to be called an "ideal cut" These stones will
maximize total light reflection to the viewer and the other various optical
properties that we like to see in a diamond. So I'd not only ask for an
"excellent" cut description, I'd want an "ideal cut", at the least.

At the least? yeah, there's more. In recent years (mostly the last decade or
so), cutters have become even more rigorous in just how well they can do their
job. At the tiniest level, totally exact fact placement isn't something that
affects the overall optics of the stone. But getting every last facet
absolutely perfectly placed, well past the precision that used to be considered
the norm, is now possible, and gives us stones sometimes called "super cuts".
Many of these are brand name products, such as the "hearts and arrows" cuts, so
named for the very regular patterns in the reflections that can be seen in them
under specialized lightly. At normal viewing distances, the usual ideal cut
diamond does not look any different from the super cuts. But if your bride (or
you) take a really close look at the super cuts, perhaps with a loupe, the high
precision becomes notable, and a thing to perhaps marvel at, since it's still,
in the end, hand craftsmanship. These cuts aren't the product of some soulless
computer driven manufacturing line. They're the work of extremely fine diamond
cutting craftspeople, working to standards and possibilities that didn't exist
20 years ago. For me, at least, that's something to sit up and take notice of.
They do cost more, of course. But I think it's something worth considering.
There are several variants of the super cuts. Some are the standard 58 facet
round brilliant executed with extreme precision. (like the Hearts and Arrows
brand). Others play with the cut geometry itself, usually adding additional
facets to increase the complexity and uniqueness of the stones.

I work day to day with a lot of diamonds. I tend, like anyone, to take notice
of the nicer ones. The ideal cuts that cross my path get a nod of approval.
"That's a nice stone". Some respect, some appreciation of the fine workmanship,
and then I get on with it, set the stone, or do whatever else needs doing, and
go to the next job. But the super cuts that go past just being high precision,
perhaps with interesting new cutting patterns, or more complexity, now THOSE
catch my real attention. At least for a bit longer. Those are the ones I
might show to someone else in the shop to share the appreciation of a unique and
interesting gem. This is a distinction perhaps worth noticing. As I said
earlier, in the jewelry industry we treat diamonds as a commodity these days.
They're common enough that every jeweler has many of them, and any goldsmith
works with many of them daily. For us jaded types to stop and take notice now
and then requires a gem that steps beyond the ordinary. Really fine color and
clarity and cutting and size can all do it, of course. But for me, at least,
the really fine cutting is the most likely to get my nod of appreciation. Take
that for whatever it's worth. Maybe just me. But I know others who share that
view. Costs more, of course. Like anything. But personally, I think they're
worth it, once you've decided that a diamond, any diamond, is worth paying such
prices for.



I will definitely look into Blue Nile, and some of the other sites
listed. If anyone has any other reputable on-line store suggestions
this would be very helpful.


Do check out the other site I mentioned. I've not dealt with them in a number
of years, and it's founder Ray Elsey sadly died earlier this year. But the last
time I helped someone get stones from him, perhaps six years ago, I found his
pricing to be substantially lower than most other internet sellers. Possible
simply because he didn't own the inventory. Back then, his diamond lists were
imported directly from the computer files of the importing and cutting firms he
was getting them from. So he could sell for a surprisingly low markup,
sometimes as little as 10 percent. I have, of course, no idea if this is still
the case. That low a margin makes it hard for even an internet business to stay
afloat (and we won't talk about what sites like that do to the rest of us in
this business...) and times have changed a lot since then. But I'll bet they
still give you a very good price. Knowledgeable people who're interested in
doing right by their customers.

Blue Nile, well, I also know them. Or at least the folks in their workshop.
Nice people (all goldsmiths, are by definition, wonderful people, of course,
unless they **** me off and I say otherwise... (grin)) They've built a large
and active business in relatively few years. Offer good value, again hard for
many "brick and morter" stores to compete with. I doubt they are quite as low
as tradeshop.com, but I can't really say for sure.

One oddity of the diamond trade, though. pay attention to the cert details,
like registration numbers. If looking at stones with certs, you may find that
several sellers will be trying to sell you the same stone, since all are doing
the same thing, communicating with the wholesaler who happens to have that
stone. With larger rare stones, you see this from time to time, and it makes it
especially easy to see who's giving you the best price. 2 carat is large
enough you might run into that situation...

And one final note. Please don't totally blow your whole budget on the
diamond. Save some for a good, well made, well designed mounting. Great
furnature in a well decorated living room isn't so enjoyable if the roof leaks
and the heating doesn't work. The setting has a lot to do with how long your
bride will be wearing the ring with enjoyment. And don't assume that always
more costly is always better. You can get mountings that are so totally
encrusted with tiny diamonds everywhere that there's not much metal left holding
the ring together. Flashy, but fragile. Others with some of this effect may be
done much better, equally flashy, and still be honoring the engineering and
metalurgy that makes a ring last a long time.

Hope all tht helps.

Peter Rowe


  #25  
Old June 24th 08, 05:32 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Abrasha
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 298
Default Ebay Diamonds

papa smurf wrote:


Color: DEF (Colorless)
Clarity: VS1 and up
Carrots: 1.5 - 2.0
Certified GIA
Cut: Excellent


That's an enormous range. Prices will range from $20,000 for a 1.51 ct
F-VS1 to $74,000 for a 1.90 D - IF. All with GIA certs, and excellent cut.

You better narrow it down a bit. With all due respect, it is my
experience, that buyers who can spend 70 grand on a diamond do not hang
out in newsgroups. Nor would they call themselves "papa smurf".

Oh, BTW, I can better any deal you can find online. You just give me
the specs, (and please not as loosely defined as you gave) and I'll
email you a cert plus price.

Show me the money, and I'll show you the diamond.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
  #26  
Old June 24th 08, 05:32 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Heinrich Butschal[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 21
Default Ebay Diamonds

Peter W.. Rowe, schrieb:
On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 18:24:59 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry papa smurf
wrote:
=20
=20
Ok so now that is out there. I have been shopping around. I know
what I like when I see it. I will list the diamond specs that I have=


chosen below. When I compare prices, same diamond specs, from the ne=

t
to a store retailer it really makes a significant difference in price=


(as I am sure you are all aware).

Color: DEF (Colorless)
Clarity: VS1 and up
Carrots: 1.5 - 2.0
Certified GIA
Cut: Excellent

=2E...
=20
And one final note. Please don't totally blow your whole budget on th=

e
diamond. Save some for a good, well made, well designed mounting. Gre=

at
furnature in a well decorated living room isn't so enjoyable if the roo=

f leaks
and the heating doesn't work. The setting has a lot to do with how lon=

g your
bride will be wearing the ring with enjoyment. And don't assume that =

always
more costly is always better. You can get mountings that are so totall=

y
encrusted with tiny diamonds everywhere that there's not much metal lef=

t holding
the ring together. Flashy, but fragile. Others with some of this effe=

ct may be
done much better, equally flashy, and still be honoring the engineering=

and
metalurgy that makes a ring last a long time.
=20
Hope all tht helps.
=20
Peter Rowe



He should know that with this criteria he won=B4t find a diamond below 15=
=2E000,-=20
US Dollars.


Mit freundlichem Gru=DF,
Heinrich Butschal
--=20
Schmuck Gutachter und Schmuckverkauf http://www.butschal.de
Schmuck nach Ma=DF anfertigen http://www.meister-atelier.de
Firmengeschenke und Ehrennadeln http://www.goldschmiede-meister.com
Schmuckmanufaktur http://www.schmuckfabrik.de
Schmuck gut verkaufen und g=FCnstig kaufen http://www.schmuck-boerse.com
  #27  
Old June 24th 08, 05:34 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Heinrich Butschal[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 21
Default Ebay Diamonds

Peter W.. Rowe, schrieb:
On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 18:24:59 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry papa smurf
wrote:


Ok so now that is out there. I have been shopping around. I know
what I like when I see it. I will list the diamond specs that I have
chosen below. When I compare prices, same diamond specs, from the net
to a store retailer it really makes a significant difference in price
(as I am sure you are all aware).

Color: DEF (Colorless)
Clarity: VS1 and up
Carrots: 1.5 - 2.0
Certified GIA
Cut: Excellent

.....

And one final note. Please don't totally blow your whole budget on the
diamond. Save some for a good, well made, well designed mounting. Great
furnature in a well decorated living room isn't so enjoyable if the roof leaks
and the heating doesn't work. The setting has a lot to do with how long your
bride will be wearing the ring with enjoyment. And don't assume that always
more costly is always better. You can get mountings that are so totally
encrusted with tiny diamonds everywhere that there's not much metal left holding
the ring together. Flashy, but fragile. Others with some of this effect may be
done much better, equally flashy, and still be honoring the engineering and
metalurgy that makes a ring last a long time.

Hope all tht helps.

Peter Rowe



He should know that with this criteria he won´t find a diamond below 15.000,-
US Dollars.


Mit freundlichem Gruß,
Heinrich Butschal
--
Schmuck Gutachter und Schmuckverkauf http://www.butschal.de
Schmuck nach Maß anfertigen http://www.meister-atelier.de
Firmengeschenke und Ehrennadeln http://www.goldschmiede-meister.com
Schmuckmanufaktur http://www.schmuckfabrik.de
Schmuck gut verkaufen und günstig kaufen http://www.schmuck-boerse.com
  #28  
Old June 28th 08, 08:19 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Graver
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 14
Default Ebay Diamonds

On Jun 24, 12:32=A0pm, Abrasha wrote:
papa smurf wrote:

Color: DEF (Colorless)
Clarity: VS1 and up
Carrots: 1.5 - 2.0
Certified GIA
Cut: Excellent


That's an enormous range. =A0Prices will range from $20,000 for a 1.51 ct
F-VS1 to $74,000 for a 1.90 D - IF. =A0All with GIA certs, and excellent =

cut.

You better narrow it down a bit. =A0With all due respect, it is my
experience, that buyers who can spend 70 grand on a diamond do not hang
out in newsgroups. =A0Nor would they call themselves "papa smurf".

Oh, BTW, I can better any deal you can find online. =A0You just give me
the specs, (and please not as loosely defined as you gave) and I'll
email you a cert plus price.

Show me the money, and I'll show you the diamond.

--
Abrashahttp://www.abrasha.com


OK!
Now that the intelligence issue has been reviewed, pick up your local
news paper and go to the classified section. You'll be able to find
some great buys on diamonds as this economy continues to get worse.
You'll find that most people will meet you at a jeweler of your choice
to have the stone verified, If not then you need not go any further
with any transaction. It's like the housing market, it's sad people
are losing their homes, but others are finding the best deals in
twenty years.

Good shopping,
Mark
  #29  
Old June 28th 08, 08:37 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Peter W.. Rowe,
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 355
Default Ebay Diamonds

On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 12:19:12 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry Graver
wrote:


OK!
Now that the intelligence issue has been reviewed, pick up your local
news paper and go to the classified section. You'll be able to find
some great buys on diamonds as this economy continues to get worse.
You'll find that most people will meet you at a jeweler of your choice
to have the stone verified, If not then you need not go any further
with any transaction. It's like the housing market, it's sad people
are losing their homes, but others are finding the best deals in
twenty years.

Good shopping,
Mark


Well, while shopping the classified ads is always an option (and that perhaps is
not much different from shopping ebay or Craigslist, where this thread started),
your suggestion, taken just as written, is a good way to get not exactly what
you think your getting.

One factor is that many people have an idea of the value of their diamonds based
on the insurance appraisal they may have gotten when they bought the thing. Or
in otherwords, they usually think of their diamond as being worth it's full,
undiscounted, retail value, and then they're willing to come down from there.
This is especially true if they've had the stone for a while, perhaps purchased
before internet shopping because such an important impact on the market. In
general, those value expectations many people have about their own diamonds are
often somewhat inflated, and their hopes for what they can get for the things is
also somewhat higher than the reality.

The second factor in your suggestion that raises a red flag is "the jeweler of
your choice to have the stone verified" thing.

OK. That's like asking your local new car salesman if the used car you're
trying to buy right next to his dealership is worth what your paying. For one
thing, unless you're prepared to pay this jeweler a proper fee for evaluating
the stone, he or she is unlikely to give it any real attention, so the
verification process might end with "yeah it's a diamond". If that. Diamond
grading is an exact and highly precise set of decisions that need some skill and
training to do accurately. Mistakes of one grade or two can mean thousands of
dollars, especially in the size range our original poster is talking about. And
the kicker is simply this? Most of those "jewelers of your choice" are likely
to be well experienced in selling jewelery, but will not normally be trained
gemologists or diamond graders. If you walk into the average shopping mall
jewelry store, your chances of being able to find someone who actually has ANY
reat training or knowledge of diamond grading can be slim indeed, and even at
the more extensive and well staffed shops, those folks who do have that
training, if there are any, won't be the sales clerks you're likely to be
talking to. Jewelers make jewelry and sell jewelery. Many of them know quite
a bit about gemstones. But only a few are really properly trained to do precise
diamond grading, and "verifying" your diamond can easily fall into that catagory
of skill.

You'd be better off, rather than meeing at the "jeweler of your choice", instead
meeting at the office (which might be a jewelry store, even so) of a properly
credentialed and trained gem and jewelry appraiser. Then expect to pay a
proper fee for the service of examining the stone and determining what it's
grades are. Even if you have an existing and proper certificate for the stone,
so making sure the diamond is the same one as listed on the cert, can require
more than just a quick look. The only times it's a pretty simple task is for
that smaller percentage of certified stones where a registration or
identification number has been laser engraved on the girdle, but even then, it
can take more than a simple loupe to find and read that engraving. And even
then, one must take the time to be sure the stone is still in the condition
described on the cert and hasn't been damaged in any way. Again, often not the
sort of thing within the skills of every jeweler.

You wouldn't ask for a good medical opinion of the fellow working behind the
photo counter at the local pharmacy. His store may sell the medicine to make
you better, but he's not the guy to do the diagnosis. In fact, if you're vision
is giving you trouble, you don't want to see the doctor in the gastroenterology
department either. You want the opthalmologist. Same thing here. If you want
accurate information, skill, and opinions, you've got to find the experts who
have the training to give it to you. You need a trained gemologist, not a
jeweler.

Peter
  #30  
Old July 16th 08, 02:45 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
gruhn
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11
Default Ebay Diamonds

If You will buy cheap the risk is higher that You will get a banana.

Is "banana" a regular term in the industry? Just curious.
 




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