A crafts forum. CraftBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » CraftBanter forum » Craft related newsgroups » Jewelry
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Buying a prop-ox torch setup



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old March 11th 07, 04:02 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
mbstevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 165
Default Buying a prop-ox torch setup

On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 16:42:56 -0800, Frosty wrote:

FWIW, I have the little torch (Smith?) and use Oxy/ace.
I have one tip and it's been on there for about 15 years.


I find the graded sizes (and acetylene) most useful for fusion, but also
move to a very small size when brazing jump rings and such, even though it
could be done with a larger tip.

I have a bit of a larger torch for larger jobs and a HUGE combo
welding torch/cutting torch (changable tips) for large reduction.


I have a 40 year old Victor set. I let the local welding shop rebuild the
regulators, replaced a few torch gaskets, and it works like new. Welding
equipment is a lifetime investment.

For your reading pleasu
http://www.lawyersandsettlements.com...ane-explosions


Yes. Clean burning but dangerous. Even Hank Hill [1] was blown up once.
If I'm not right with that tank, it gets chained to an outdoor pole 80
feet away from the studio.

[1] This is an animated cartoon character who
sells propane.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_the_Hill



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Ads
  #12  
Old March 11th 07, 04:03 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
lemel_man
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 22
Default Buying a prop-ox torch setup

C0nnie wrote:
...snip...

Well I hit the mother lode today that corresponds with all of your
advice. Went to visit my fave goldsmith and he showed me his Meco
Midget and why he likes it (bigger output/ more versatile than Smith
Little).

Then went to the local welders supply and coincidentally the Smith rep
was there. I told him about the Midget and he showed me the Smith
Quickbraze. (see http://www.smithequipment.com/produc...z/quickbrz.htm
) What a nice lil gadget with kevlar covering the hoses.

Bigger than the Little torch, but still quite petite.

Comes with 4 tips, one is a dual flame, looks like a horseshoe, one is
the typical small aperture of jewelers, one is a rosette. One tip is
on a long copper tube extending it beyond or between something
awkward- this is for heating and ac guys.

Still, the setup meets and exceeds all my needs for years to come. I
plan to get it Monday. With the oxygen regulator H1940G-540 and a
single-stage propane regulator, it will total out to about $360.



This looks exactly like the MicroFlame torch set that I've been using
for about 20 years here in UK. The UK company is in a small town called
Diss, in Norfolk.

It came with a range of small straight tips, the 2 smallest of which
have drilled ruby nozzles, and a range of rosette tips that can be
screwed to the end of tube shaped rather like a question mark. A
twin-nozzle (the 'horseshoe' one) is available for soldering pipes on
refrigerators and the like, but I didn't get one.
The set came with a small, re-fillable, O2 bottle and can be used with
propane, butane or acetylene - I use propane. The major problem I found
was that of getting the O2 bottle refilled. Although I had a copy of a
letter from British Oxygen agreeing that they would refill at any of
their depots, I was always met with suspicion and hassle, and what
should have taken 10 minutes usually took about 90.

The torch works very well but I've now given up using the straight
nozzles in favour of a water torch (generates O2 and H from water), and
use the rosettes on the Q-tube for melting.

--
Regards, Gary Wooding
(To reply by email, change feet to foot in my address)

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

  #13  
Old March 12th 07, 07:15 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Frosty
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 155
Default Buying a prop-ox torch setup

On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 08:03:01 -0700 in rec.crafts.jewelry lemel_man
, intended to write something intelligible, but
instead wrote :

C0nnie wrote:
...snip...

Well I hit the mother lode today that corresponds with all of your
advice. Went to visit my fave goldsmith and he showed me his Meco
Midget and why he likes it (bigger output/ more versatile than Smith
Little).

Then went to the local welders supply and coincidentally the Smith rep
was there. I told him about the Midget and he showed me the Smith
Quickbraze. (see http://www.smithequipment.com/produc...z/quickbrz.htm
) What a nice lil gadget with kevlar covering the hoses.

Bigger than the Little torch, but still quite petite.

Comes with 4 tips, one is a dual flame, looks like a horseshoe, one is
the typical small aperture of jewelers, one is a rosette. One tip is
on a long copper tube extending it beyond or between something
awkward- this is for heating and ac guys.

Still, the setup meets and exceeds all my needs for years to come. I
plan to get it Monday. With the oxygen regulator H1940G-540 and a
single-stage propane regulator, it will total out to about $360.



This looks exactly like the MicroFlame torch set that I've been using
for about 20 years here in UK. The UK company is in a small town called
Diss, in Norfolk.

It came with a range of small straight tips, the 2 smallest of which
have drilled ruby nozzles, and a range of rosette tips that can be
screwed to the end of tube shaped rather like a question mark. A
twin-nozzle (the 'horseshoe' one) is available for soldering pipes on
refrigerators and the like, but I didn't get one.



FWIW I'm also a certified HVAC technician and we don't use those
things. If anything we use either the red-handled ace/air torches or
the handheld mapgas things (though I don't use either 'cause I don't
do any HVAC work at all. Strictly jewelry.)

The set came with a small, re-fillable, O2 bottle and can be used with
propane, butane or acetylene - I use propane. The major problem I found
was that of getting the O2 bottle refilled. Although I had a copy of a
letter from British Oxygen agreeing that they would refill at any of
their depots, I was always met with suspicion and hassle, and what
should have taken 10 minutes usually took about 90.

The torch works very well but I've now given up using the straight
nozzles in favour of a water torch (generates O2 and H from water), and
use the rosettes on the Q-tube for melting.

--
Regards, Gary Wooding
(To reply by email, change feet to foot in my address)



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

  #14  
Old March 12th 07, 07:15 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
m3rma1d
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10
Default Buying a prop-ox torch setup

mbstevens wrote:

[1] This is an animated cartoon character who
sells propane.


"... and propane accessories."

!!!!!!!

Haha, sorry--you left out that last (and funniest) line of his catchphrase.
I had to tack it on, it just looked so weird being all unfinished & naked like that.

:-)


-- m3rma1d


--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

  #15  
Old March 17th 07, 06:56 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
C0nnie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9
Default Buying a prop-ox torch setup


Hello all,

Well I finally decided to get the Hoke for propane/ oxygen. Since I
have no torch at all now, a Hoke will be much better. The investment
is less than it would be with other torches. I also got the adapter
set.

I got flashback arrestors, and now I just need to get a tank of
propane, an oxygen cylinder (I think I'll get R size, 20 cu ft),
hoses, and regulators. I heard that oxygen pressure changes with
fullness of the tank. I was told that a special regulator for oxygen
that keeps underlying pressure to 20 psi and adjusts separately (sort
of like dual stage) is available from Smith. It's item # H1940-G-540
for $78.00.

I am within minutes of 4 welding supplies and 2 gas delivery services,
so availability is not a problem. I also have city gas but I don't
want the expense of running gas pipe.

I want to do granulation in Argentium and fine silver. I'll keep y'all
posted...





  #16  
Old April 18th 07, 07:00 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Carl
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 38
Default granulation

When C0nnie put fingers to keys it was 3/17/07 1:56 AM...

I want to do granulation in Argentium and fine silver. I'll keep y'all
posted...


What little I know of granulation says you need to be using an alloy and
that trying to do it with fine silver will be a problem. Do I need to
know more about granulation?

- C
  #17  
Old April 18th 07, 07:15 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Peter W.. Rowe,
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 355
Default granulation

On Tue, 17 Apr 2007 22:59:52 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry Carl
wrote:

When C0nnie put fingers to keys it was 3/17/07 1:56 AM...

I want to do granulation in Argentium and fine silver. I'll keep y'all
posted...


What little I know of granulation says you need to be using an alloy and
that trying to do it with fine silver will be a problem. Do I need to
know more about granulation?

- C


yes, you need to know a bit more. Fine silver, or fine gold, are the easiest to
granulate. Alloys are increasingly difficult as their melting points drop.

Granulation is done by causing the surface skin of the granules to melt before
the granule itself, or the base plate, does. This is done in several ways. One
is to copper plate the granules. The usual method is to put the grains in an
iron cup/container, along with some well used (turned blue in color) pickle, or
just plain copper sulphate solution (about the same thing, used pickle that's
already at hand is of course cheaper) The resulting electrolytic action copper
plates the grains, which can then be placed on the desired surface, usually with
a mix of dilute orgainic glue, perhaps a trace of flux, and water. . Another
method is to glue unplated grains in place on the backing surface with a mix of
organic glue (hide glue, for example) often a trace of flux, and a mix of
powdered copper salts. When this is heated, to glue carbonizes, and causes the
copper salts to reduce to metallic copper, leaving traces of copper metal on the
grains and in the contact areas. With the plated grain method, the copper is
already there, so no reducing action is needed. Either way, then upon further
heating, when the eutectic temperature between copper and gold or silver
(whichever is being worked) is reached, the copper then forms a eutectic alloys
as a liquid on the surfaces of the grains, essentially becoming a faint thin
liquid layer of solder on the surface. It's so little that upon continued
heating, the copper quickly diffuses further into both the grains and the
substrate, leaving the grains now affixed in place.

A further method, better suited to lower karats (not too low, but say, 18K) can
be done by first heating the grains repeatedly in an oxidizing atmosphere. This
causes copper oxides to form on the surface, and copper near the surface of the
grains to diffuse towards the surface and concentrate there as the oxide. The
layer of metal just under the surface ends up copper depleted slightly. In any
case, you've got a higher percentage of copper at the surface, as oxide, than in
the alloy itself. These grains are then glued in place same as for other
methods, and heating lets for formed carbon (from the glue) reduce the copper
skin surface to copper, and from there the process is identical.

High karat alloys, or pure metals, are easier to granulate simply because the
difference between the temperature where bonding takes place, and that where the
substrate or granules actually melt on their own, is greater, allowing easier
working without melting accidents.

As to the original question, whether or not argentum silver granulates would
depend on whether a copper layer on it's surface lowers the metling point at the
interface between the two, and on whether the resulting eutectic bond formed if
they grains can be affixed this way, is strong enough. Some alloys can be
granulated, but the results are not satisfactory since the joints are so brittle
the grains fall off again too easily. I don't know if this is the case with
argentum, but I'd not expect it to be.

fine silver, though, is relatively easy to granulate.

Peter Rowe
  #18  
Old April 18th 07, 04:47 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Carl
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 38
Default granulation

When Peter W.. Rowe, put fingers to keys it was 4/18/07 2:15 AM...

... Do I need to
know more about granulation?


yes, you need to know a bit more. Fine silver, or fine gold, are the easiest to
granulate. Alloys are increasingly difficult as their melting points drop.

Granulation is done by causing the surface skin of the granules to melt before
the granule itself, or the base plate, does. This is done in several ways. One
is to copper plate the granules....


Ah yes, it comes back to me now. Sorry about the audible brain fart, I
had it inside out, but thanks for the information all in one place.
Another one for the file.

- C
  #19  
Old April 20th 07, 05:52 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
C0nnie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9
Default granulation

On Apr 18, 8:47 am, Carl wrote:
When Peter W.. Rowe, put fingers to keys it was 4/18/07 2:15 AM...

... Do I need to
know more about granulation?

yes, you need to know a bit more. Fine silver, or fine gold, are the easiest to
granulate. Alloys are increasingly difficult as their melting points drop.


Granulation is done by causing the surface skin of the granules to melt before
the granule itself, or the base plate, does. This is done in several ways. One
is to copper plate the granules....


Ah yes, it comes back to me now. Sorry about the audible brain fart, I
had it inside out, but thanks for the information all in one place.
Another one for the file.

- C


Hello Peter and Carl.

I was unaware of the copper part. I have bought and watched
(repeatedly) Ronda Coryell's DVD "The Art of Granulation" in which
there is no copper plating of the fine silver she uses. I have
imitated the technique and it has come out quite nicely.

Also had some flubs.

Anyway do you know of her technique? I found it quite worthwhile to
watch and take notes. I enjoy reading about all methods to accomplish
the same result. There are many considerations that may come up in the
future that might change my favorite one.

  #20  
Old April 20th 07, 06:10 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Peter W.. Rowe,
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 355
Default granulation

On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 21:52:11 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry C0nnie
wrote:


Hello Peter and Carl.

I was unaware of the copper part. I have bought and watched
(repeatedly) Ronda Coryell's DVD "The Art of Granulation" in which
there is no copper plating of the fine silver she uses. I have
imitated the technique and it has come out quite nicely.

Also had some flubs.

Anyway do you know of her technique? I found it quite worthwhile to
watch and take notes. I enjoy reading about all methods to accomplish
the same result. There are many considerations that may come up in the
future that might change my favorite one.


Hi Connie,

I'm not specifically aware of Ronda's method or DVD. But it's true enough that
copper plating isn't the only means to granulate.

Any technique which will allow the surface of the grains to become liquid long
enough to form a slight bond with whatever surface they touch (other grains, or
the substrate surface) will allow granulation to be done. Copper plating, or
the use of copper salts mixed with the glue, or the raising of copper oxides to
the surface of the grains by repeated heatings, is just one way.

When Littledale published his efforts to reinvent/rediscover the methods by
which ancient granulation was done, in the 30s, I think, his discovered method
was the use of metallic salts added to the glue mix to affix the grains. Copper
salts were the main one he used with the most success, and this is how that
variation of the method has most frequently been taught, but Littledale also
discussed the fact that salts of any metal which would be reduced by heating in
the presence of carbon to a metal, and which would then form a eutectic alloy
with the silver or gold being bonded, could be used. One could theoretically
use a mix of salts which would, upon reduction, give a mix approximating almost
any solder recipe you could wish. The main key is that the method results in an
exceedingly small amount of "solder" at the surfaces, so that delicate
granulation results rather than flooding of the grains with too much solder,
which is what almost invariably happens when actual solder is used.

Using the copper plating method to coat the grains is simply a shortcut over the
use of metal salts, and it's ease of use is the main reason it's been widely
taught. But as I said, it's not the only way.

John Paul Miller, for example, did not plate his grains. Instead, he heated
them in air to raise an oxide layer on the surface. That leaves a copper
enriched surface, and a copper depleted area just under the surface. That
depelted layer is then slightly harder to melt, so the grains are less likely to
melt when granulated, if heating is very closely controlled.

And Elizabeth Treskow is said to have done considerable granulation with pure
gold, using just saliva to adhere the grains. Here theory was that the slight
amount of organic material therein, would carbonize, as does glue mixes used by
other workers, and with pure gold or silver, that carbon would lead to the
formation of small amounts of gold or silver carbide alloying with the surface,
slightly lowering it's melting point over that of the metal itself, allowing
granulation to be done that way. At least that's what i've been told. i've not
seen this published directly by her. But I've seen the "carbide" theory of how
granulation can be done promoted by other writers too.

In truth, there are no doubt multiple methods of doing this. Some methods will
work better for some people than for others. it remains a mystery just how
ancient granulation was actually done, since even with modern work, the
formation of teltale surface alloys that might show exactly how the work is done
simply doesn't happen well, and with old work, diffusion over time of copper or
other metals into a surface mean there's no evidence anymore to show. One can
deduce simply by the ease with which one can accidentally get an excess of
copper on a surface, either by working with old pickle or similar acid
chemistry, along with copper or bronze utensils, or by the probable coesixtance
within a workshop area of other sources of copper, including copper salts, which
might easily have lead to accidental discoveries of a soldering method by
ancient workers.

But even if we knew for certain how ancient granulation was done, it still
doesn't negate the fact that with modern knowledge of metalurgy, and the modern
armament of tools and heating methods and chemistry with which we can work,
there will be considerable options we can explore in doing this.

Still, I'm curious. Can you explain how Ronda does it?

thanks.

Peter Rowe
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
debating pros and cons of harris 19-6 Torch Handle, wt040018 gloor light torch handle, and smith little torch bizHB Jewelry 2 July 16th 06 05:45 AM
Help with loom setup please FtForger Beads 2 June 1st 06 12:04 PM
Beveling Setup for Sale Commander Barkfeather Glass 2 September 13th 04 11:25 PM
Bead Photography Setup - What do you think? Tinkster Beads 16 August 28th 04 07:17 PM
'Home' setup for glaze spraying? (UK) Jake Loddington Pottery 1 March 2nd 04 12:43 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:14 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 CraftBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.