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  #21  
Old February 12th 07, 06:38 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Abrasha
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Posts: 298
Default Took a class

Peter W.. Rowe, wrote:
On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:47:45 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry Abrasha
wrote:

Frosty wrote:


Anyway it's an unbelievable substance that I put on my sawblades and
it helps me cut straighter and easier and I don't break sawblades
hardly at all (and I use 9/0 blades mostly.)
A total waste of money. Spit is the best lubricant. Just lick your saw
blades. Never fails. I've been doing it for more than 30 years.


And after the first few years, either you learn to lick the blade in the
downward direction, or the cuts stop hurting so much in any case.

personally, I prefer bur life over spit, especially on drill bits. Seems less
messy. Not that it works better, though...


On drill bits, I use Wintergreen oil.


one "tongue-in-cheek" problem with spit, of course, is that it might cause a
blade to rust.


Rust has never been a problem, since the blades do not stay wet long
enough. Thew spit evaporates due to the heat developed through
friction. That's how fast I saw. And when I file, it gets so hot,
sparks fly!

That might mean needing to change the blade more than once a
year or so, before the teeth are totally worn off.


Most of the time, my blades do indeed wear out and get dull, before they
break. It was very different when I was a beginner.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

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  #22  
Old February 12th 07, 07:17 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Peter W.. Rowe,
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Posts: 355
Default Took a class

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 21:38:20 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry Abrasha
wrote:


I agree with the traditional German "Style". I got the German kind when
I lived there. Don't use them anymore. They are very heavy in the
hand. When I cam to the US, I bought a Swiss made one, that was rather
bad, but I took it apart, and completely rebuilt it. Made a new handle
for it too. This frame is now so well balanced, I would be in mourning
if I ever lost it.



My favorite is actually a slightly ligher frame from the german ones. It's an
old french frame. Similar style to the germans, but lighter, oval cross section
steel, nicer handle. Who knows how old. Early 20th century perhaps... Was old
when I got it in the 70s. But I'm equally happy with the german frames, for
the most part. My biggest beef with them is that the screws to tighten the
blades are on the left side as you saw. Easier for a right hander to change
blades, but I annoyingly sometimes hit my thumb with the upper screw. So I
modified that frame to turn the screw around to the other side. Some frames
sold now allow that as a user choice.




There are sawblades, and then there are sawblades. Some very wide variations in
price. Some of the costliest are not really the best for beginners, since
they're often tempered to a harder state, making them better for harder metals,
or tough to cut metals like platinum, or steel. But for most beginners, a
medium quality level blade is just fine, and saves money, since you'll actually
break fewer of them. But I've not looked at the frei web site to be sure what
you got. So maybe you're fine....


(Tevel, at Allcraft, in New York, always seems to have specials on some
cool pliers at amazing prices, at every SNAG convention...) You can even find
servicable cheaper pliers at places like Harbor Freight.


Don't!


The ones from allcraft are usually the good german ones. The ones from harbor
freight are cheap junk chinese. But I like to have a few around, because from
time to time I need to modify a pair of pliers with custom grooves to hold
something odd, or for polishing something unusual, or reshaping the jaws in some
other odd way. Often this makes the pliers useless for normal routine tasks. So
it's nice to have the cheapies around for such modifications, since the result
is usually a tool worth keeping, just in case, but not one I'll need often. For
that, the cheapies work fine.


Small bits get dull
quickly, and when dull don't work as well and break easily. You'll get a lot
more life out of your bits if you learn to sharpen them. Needs a good
magnifier, and use a fine grit seperating disk in a flex shaft to sharpen them.


No! Use a sharpening stone, with the drill in a pin vise. You'll have
much better control.


To each his own. I find I have better control, and get a better point, my way.
I'd note that I'm talking about small drills, maybe size 55 and up. I can
resharpen a number 80 bit my way. I tend to break the damn things doing it on
flat stone. Clumsy, I guess... I use the very thin .010" flexible seperating
disks, which have a quite smooth side. they also break easily, but that's
another issue. I hold the bit in a pin vise as you do, or sometimes just still
in the #30 handpiece. Either way, the vise or the chuck can be used to see that
you've turned the bit 180 degrees from one face to the other. I use a ten power
eye loupe when sharpening these, so I can see just what I'm doing. If the
handpiece holding the seperating disk and the chuck or vise holding the drill
are held carefully in alignment, the angles are very easy to keep equal from
side to side, and this way, I can easily see just as I start to grind the bit,
that I'm right on the original angles of the bit. In short, this works very
well for me. But it's not for everyone, I agree. One thing it allows,
difficult with a sharpening stone, is that with the cutting edge of the
seperating disk (not the flat side that I use for the actual sharpening), I can
also split the point, or thin the web of the bit. This is useful once the bit
is getting down to the end of it's flutes, where the web is getting too thick.
Putting a split point on them makes it cut like a new bit again, and helps it to
not wander off target when starting the hole (something they can do when the web
is too wide, even with a properly center punched mark to start the hole. You
do, when sharpening this way, need to be careful not to overheat the bit if
you're sharpening carbon steel bits (like the drills/burs with 3/32 shanks). But
usually, the problem with overheating those occurs when actually drilling, and
the drill is getting dull, not when sharpening again.

cheers

Peter
  #23  
Old February 12th 07, 07:25 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Peter W.. Rowe,
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Posts: 355
Default Took a class

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 21:38:27 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry Abrasha
wrote:


On drill bits, I use Wintergreen oil.


I used to. gravers too. But I think I've become sensative to it. Gives me a
nasty headache. Too bad. smells nice.


one "tongue-in-cheek" problem with spit, of course, is that it might cause a
blade to rust.


Rust has never been a problem, since the blades do not stay wet long
enough. Thew spit evaporates due to the heat developed through
friction. That's how fast I saw. And when I file, it gets so hot,
sparks fly!


SMOKIN!!!

That might mean needing to change the blade more than once a
year or so, before the teeth are totally worn off.


Most of the time, my blades do indeed wear out and get dull, before they
break. It was very different when I was a beginner.


Yeah, I know. Sometimes I'll be working on a job, usually some ring where the
blade needs to thread through a hole on one side of the ring in order to
properly have access to the hole on the other side where I'm actually sawing,
where I'll just end up breaking several blades in quick succession. Leads to
some colorful language. But more often, the blades get tossed when for whatever
reason, they're not cutting well any more. Often, some hard thing, a stone, a
bit of uneven metal hardness, or whatever, has dulled one side of the blade more
than the other, so it cuts to one side, not straight. Annoying, and worth
tossing the blade for.

It also took me some time, years ago, to learn that not only are hercules blades
harder, but the white label are tempered for steel, for tool and die makers, not
jewelers. They're quite brittle. Back then, I thought larger blade sizes might
last longer, so I was using coarser blades. Damn things would shatter like
glass if you looked at em crossways. finer blades, and swithing to another
blade brand fixed the situation.

By the way, your comment on blade sizes. 1//0 and 2/0 blades are indeed useful
when working with thicker silver (3/0s on sixteen guage silver is slower, and
who cares about the metal lost) or cutting sprues, etc. But you're right, most
of the time, 3/0s are the best all around size.

Peter
  #24  
Old February 12th 07, 08:55 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
MatthewK
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Posts: 17
Default Took a class

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 05:38:23 +0000, Abrasha wrote:

The items I ordered are not due until the 14th, would it be unreasonable
of me to eat the shipping costs and start over?

matthew
ohio

  #25  
Old February 12th 07, 08:55 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Abrasha
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Posts: 298
Default Took a class

Peter W.. Rowe, wrote:


To each his own. I find I have better control, and get a better point, my way.
I'd note that I'm talking about small drills, maybe size 55 and up. I can
resharpen a number 80 bit my way.


I don't believe you can resharpen a #80 drill bit, in any way. I
routinely resharpen #63 drill bits, but #80, I don't believe a word of it!

I tend to break the damn things doing it on
flat stone. Clumsy, I guess... I use the very thin .010" flexible seperating
disks, which have a quite smooth side. they also break easily, but that's
another issue. I hold the bit in a pin vise as you do, or sometimes just still
in the #30 handpiece. Either way, the vise or the chuck can be used to see that
you've turned the bit 180 degrees from one face to the other. I use a ten power
eye loupe when sharpening these, so I can see just what I'm doing. If the
handpiece holding the seperating disk and the chuck or vise holding the drill
are held carefully in alignment, the angles are very easy to keep equal from
side to side, and this way, I can easily see just as I start to grind the bit,
that I'm right on the original angles of the bit. In short, this works very
well for me. But it's not for everyone, I agree. One thing it allows,
difficult with a sharpening stone, is that with the cutting edge of the
seperating disk (not the flat side that I use for the actual sharpening), I can
also split the point, or thin the web of the bit.


I want to see you do that on a #80 bit. Not a snowball's chance in Hell!

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

  #26  
Old February 12th 07, 09:14 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Peter W.. Rowe,
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 355
Default Took a class

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 23:55:46 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry Abrasha
wrote:

Peter W.. Rowe, wrote:


To each his own. I find I have better control, and get a better point, my way.
I'd note that I'm talking about small drills, maybe size 55 and up. I can
resharpen a number 80 bit my way.


I don't believe you can resharpen a #80 drill bit, in any way. I
routinely resharpen #63 drill bits, but #80, I don't believe a word of it!


Send me a mailing address. I'll be happy to send you a resharpened bit. Not
sure it's number 80 exacty, but close enough to it. Might be 78 or 79,
denpending on what itsy bit I first grab that's broken to resharpen for ya.
Principal and practice is the same in any case. You did notice I said I sharpen
them under a 10x loupe, didn't you? Makes quite a difference.. I don't
actually use 80s that often, since my number 30 handpiece won't actually grip
them that small, requiring too much trouble then to hold onto them (have to wrap
the shanks in a coil of binding wire. works better than the little drill chucks
sold for the purpose. but still a pain in the ass.)


I want to see you do that on a #80 bit. Not a snowball's chance in Hell!


You're right. I don't try to split the points on bits that small. Even the
super thin seperating disks are too clumsy/thick for those. But I can do it
routinely to a 60. The split points aren't as neat looking as those factory
split on a larger bit, but they work well enough, to the same effect. Send me
that mailing address, I'll send you a sample of that too, if you like.

And just to be clear, for me, at least, this is easy. At work, we've got, on
the other side of the workroom, a small cabinet where new drill bits are stored
by the dozen. When I dull or break a bit, I resharpen it simply because it's
quicker and easier to do that, than it is to haul my lazy ass out of my chair
and walk across the room to get a new one.

Usually, the bit is in my #30 handpiece when it breaks or dulls. I pull that
handpiece off the flex shaft, push on my usual quick release handpiece, put in
the seperating disk that's usually sitting on the bench top anyway, drop the
loupe that's usually parked on my forehead anyway over my eye, and retip the
drill. Under the loupe, I can quickly line up the drill so a remaining bit of a
ground face reflects light from the bench light. Holding that angle, I can
touch the side of the sep disk to the tip, adjusting if needed the angle I'm
holding the spinning handpiece so the angle it grinds matches the old one. If
there isn't any original face, I just estimate, which usually works well enough.
Grind to a bit past the point where the center of the drill is reached. Spin
the chuck holding the drill 180 degrees and repeat till the second face is
roughly in the middle. Change the angle slightly to relieve the back of that
face, a second grind on each face if I want, and it's done. A good deal slower
if I want to thin the web, since then I've got to dress the edge of the
seperating disk till it's spinning really true, not always the case. But still
not that hard to do under a good 10x loupe. To just sharpen the bit, I'd say it
takes less than a minute from the moment when I decide the bit is dull, to when
I'm back to drilling with it again. (unless the damn seperating disk is hiding
from me or something...)

Peter
  #27  
Old February 12th 07, 09:43 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Abrasha
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Posts: 298
Default Took a class

MatthewK wrote:
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 05:38:23 +0000, Abrasha wrote:

The items I ordered are not due until the 14th, would it be unreasonable
of me to eat the shipping costs and start over?

matthew
ohio


Just don't tell John Frei, that Abrasha gave you that idea. He'll never
take me out on the Bay in his sail boat again.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

  #28  
Old February 12th 07, 09:48 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Peter W.. Rowe,
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Posts: 355
Default Took a class

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 00:43:29 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry Abrasha
wrote:

MatthewK wrote:
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 05:38:23 +0000, Abrasha wrote:

The items I ordered are not due until the 14th, would it be unreasonable
of me to eat the shipping costs and start over?

matthew
ohio


Just don't tell John Frei, that Abrasha gave you that idea. He'll never
take me out on the Bay in his sail boat again.



or me either, or I'll never get another discount from him again :-)
And hey, I'm jealous of the boot thing. What I get for not living in the bay
area, I guess. Dang.

Seriously, though, I rather think if you eat the shipping costs, you'll have
lost any price advantage you might have gotten from other dealers. You DO have
fine tools. If you paid a few dollars more for em, don't worry too much about
it at this point. As I said, Otto Frei is a fine dealer, and good folks to
cultivate a working relationship with, especially should you ever need customer
service, or service support on tools (they service tools and equipment too, you
know, more than most dealers will)

Peter
  #29  
Old February 12th 07, 04:11 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Frosty
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Posts: 155
Default Took a class

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 02:34:29 GMT in rec.crafts.jewelry Abrasha
, pulled fingers out of his butt and stuck 'em in
his mouth and said gsrmuumfmdmurmmscommwuummm:

Peter W.. Rowe, wrote:


(If any of you know where I can get a couple gross of 10/0 blades I'd
be most appreciative.)


Call Allcraft in New York. Tevel (the owner) was special ordering them from
Germany. Hercules blades, I think. Really fine, and really fragile, but when
you need em, they're way cool.

Where'd you find 9/0 blades? The smallest I've seen commonly sold in the U.S.
are 8/0s...


The thinnest I've ever seen, period, are 8/0. What in the world do you
need 10/0 for?


I don't like that big chunk of metal removed when I want to separate
one thing from another. It's just a personal preference. More a want
than a need.
BTW, if I'm simply cutting out a shape from a sheet I use 4/0.

Frosty
--

Anulos qui animum ostendunt omnes gestemus!

  #30  
Old February 12th 07, 04:11 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Frosty
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Posts: 155
Default Took a class

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 02:47:55 GMT in rec.crafts.jewelry Abrasha
, pulled fingers out of his butt and stuck 'em in
his mouth and said gsrmuumfmdmurmmscommwuummm:
Frosty wrote:


Anyway it's an unbelievable substance that I put on my sawblades and
it helps me cut straighter and easier and I don't break sawblades
hardly at all (and I use 9/0 blades mostly.)


A total waste of money. Spit is the best lubricant. Just lick your saw
blades. Never fails. I've been doing it for more than 30 years.


Email me a mailing address and I'll send you a free sample. You'll
forever after reserve your tongue for more conventional displays.


 




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