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#61
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If its a genuine tiffany item , then the slowest cold technique is going
to be the safest. Heat to melt the solder is just too risky. So long as you can differentiate between the original material and the added solder then youll be ok. Im not familiar with this vase but the principle of carefully scraping away the added solder is valid. an image would be of great help in advising you. Ian Johnson wrote: A little off topic... is there a way to remove soft solder? Years ago, I found a Tiffany bud vase in a junk bin @ an antique store. The vase was in terrible shape; it looked like a dog chewed on it & someone tried to "fix" it with soft solder. I've been using a flat graver to get the bulk of the solder off but was wondering if there's an easier approach. thanks, Ian www.skylinesilver.com "Peter W. Rowe" wrote in message ... On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 07:51:46 -0700, in ¤ô Jack Schmidling wrote: In spite of the flack, I have aquired a good deal of useful information here but I am really hung up on the criticism of soft solder. Jack, you're correct that soft solders can work in terms of a mechanically functional joint. but there are significant differences between jewelry soldering needs and electronics soldering needs. For one thing, in electronics, virtually all but the tiniest (surface mount) componants use the solder more for the electrical connection, having established a pretty decent mechanical connection first. Leads go through circuit board holes, and often get bent away from the holes a bit. even without the bend, the componants are mechanically held. In other cases, wires wrap around terminals, or otherwise are mechanically held prior to being soldered. Also, in most electronics soldering, there is a considerable excess of solder used. the solder usually forms a mound over the joint. Plus, is often flows into a complex shape, ie the hole in the circuit board, or around a wire, etc. This is mechanically quite different from jewelry soldering where often one has a thin, tight, capillary joint between only two small flat surfaces, and one desires no solder outside of that seam to show. The soft solders are stronger in the previous example, where the solder layer is substantially thicker. Indeed, jewelry findings made especially for soft soldering are usually made with a hollowed out pad that gets filled with a small puddle of the solder, and this is then applied to the work, so the joint, while it appears capillary to the eye, actually consists of a considerably thicker mass of the solder. But the main objections to soft soldering are aesthetic. The stuff just doesn't match silver or gold, and as you observe, makes a mess. once used, one can no longer use higher melting solders or repair methods, as at higher temps, even traces of soft solder quickly etch deep holes in the precious metals. We jewelers prefer to use methods, when we can, which give the best looking results, give the strongest joints, and are as versatile as possilbe in terms of letting ourselves, or the next repair jeweler, work on the piece if needed without running into a time bomb. Soft solder does indeed have a place in jewelry work, but it must be a carefully considered one, since it's use is often less attractive, adaquate but still less strong, and subsequently more limiting to later work, than the use of hard solders. Note that much of the above applies mostly to work in silver or gold. The moment you get into working on plated vessels, pewter, or some of the base metals, there can often be much better reasons to use soft solder. With pewter, it is in fact the fully correct solder to use unless you're actually welding the stuff without solder at all. With plated or costume quality work, often the work cannot withstand the temps of hard soldering without damage. In these cases, sometimes the best result will be obtained by preparing the items to be soldered by attaching a pad or footing, with hard solder, that can then provide a more solid joint with soft solder. Peter |
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#62
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Lamedeer wrote:
I don't wish to debate the matter since I have nothing to gain. I have extensive experience in both areas and I have said my piece. Hopefully, someone will gain. "... extensive experience ..."? I doubt it. Again you demonstrate very clearly, that you do not know what you are talking about. When I asked him (naturally) how he soldered things he said he always used a snippet of the gold he was soldering. That if the snippet was small enough it would melt first and make the join. The fact that the small piece would melt first, has absolutely no bearing on anything. It onluymeans that it was heated more than the seam. The metal around the joint has to reach the same (melting) temperature as the filler material in order for the filler material to fill (flow into) the joint. If it melts first, without the metal around the seam also melting and entering a eutectic state, it would not flow into the seam, because the seam is not hot enough yet. What you describe is "welding", not "soldering". In order for this to work, the surrounding metal of the joint also has to flow, in order for the filler material to enter the joint. With soldering this is not the case, the material to be joined stays solid, because the melting point of the solder is well below the melting point of the parts to be joint. In jewelry, welding is always done with the same material, as the material to be connected. Which has the same melting point as the materials to be joined. In soldering, a filler material with a lower melting point is always used. Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com |
#63
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May be that folks need to look at something like this:
http://www.handyharmancanada.com/hbp..._soldering.htm because "technically" jewelry makers and silversmiths/goldsmiths don't make "solder" joins at all. http://www.handyharmancanada.com/The...Book/bbook.htm -- Don Thompson ~~~~~~~~ "Peter W. Rowe" wrote in message ... On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:38:51 -0700, in ôô "Lamedeer" wrote: Hello Peter, Your concepts regarding soft soldering are incorrect. If they were not there would be no space program. You might check out the NASA studies for more information. Company sponsored studies are usually self serving. perhaps in the exact details, I was incorrect, as in characterizing soft solders as similar to a glue. I DO know it's not quite like that. But in practice, it resembles a glue joint more than it does a gold soldered joint, in terms of the fact that dissimilar material is used to fill a gap between the parts being joined, and that most of the bond is simply the wetting action of that agent adhereing to the parts. Now, I DO know that with soft soldering, there is indeed some surface penetration of the tin/lead (etc) alloy into the bonded surfaces. So it's not qutie like a glue (unless one things of glues on somewhat porous materials). However, the depth of that penetration is shallower, and given the low hardness, tensile strength, shear strength, etc, of the soft solder material, that penetration makes little difference in the end strength of the bond, since a shearing force, or peeling the joint apart, can easily simply break the solder itself, even if it doesn't cause the solder to fully seperate from the bond as would a failed glue joint. In soft soldering, the narrow bond zone, coupled with the very large differences in strengths, hardness, ductirlity, etc, of the solder compared to the bonded parts will concentrate stresses within the bond zone much more, I think. In hard soldering, first off, the solders used generally are metals in the same family as those being joined. With melting points in the same general order of magnitude, or near enough to it, so that when the solder flows, considerable dissolving of the parent metal into the molten solder mass can occur, as well as dissipation of the solder alloys into the still solid parent metal. So the bond zone is a much more diffused and indistinct layer, especially with the harder grade solders. This makes the joints considerably harder to break. Of course, the "easier" the solder grade used, the less this applies. Some of the easy grades of platinum solder, for example, contain little, if any, actual platinum, being mostly palladium and silver and the like. Solder a platinum wire to a platinum object with, say, 1100 grade solder, and then try to peel it away, and you'll be surprised at how easily it can be done. In my view, that solder joint is performing much like a high temp version of tin/lead solder. Not enough surface penetration, and too dissimilar a solder composition, for good strength. Please understand that I'm not an engineer, nor academically trained in metalurgy. My training is in the arts and metalsmithing and jewelry and gemology, etc. So my terminology may not match that used by NASA in describing how solders perform. However, I've been making things in precious and non-ferrous metal since the late 60s, and electronics have been a modest side hobby/interest for much of that time too. So my familiarity with hard solders as used in jewelry, and with soft solders as used both in jewelry and as used in electronics assembly, goes back quite a while. I base my observations and statements simply on what i've observed to happen with the stuff. And the simplest characterization of those observations is that with a solder joint, the closer the composition of the solder matches that of the metals being joined, both in type of metal and in physical properties of the metals involved, the better the joint will be in terms of strength and appearance. Joints made with more highly dissimilar materials may still work, but will be more likely to present some sort of problem or objectionable characteristic, either aesthetic or physical. Soft solders are not automatically some sort of evil thing in jewelry. Indeed they're very useful at times. one can avoid annealing parts, heat damaging parts, or simply thje cost and bother of the cleanup that may be required after a higher temp solder joint. Used with joints that are properly designed for this type of solder, the results can be entirely satisfactory, and such materials are indeed widely used both in jewelry and holloware. The key is simply that the joint, whether done with hard solder or Tix solder, or even glue or a laser welder, needs to be properly designed for the type of bonding method being used. Peter |
#64
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"Don T" May be that folks need to look at something like this: http://www.handyharmancanada.com/hbp..._soldering.htm Great link! This would have saved about 90% of the bandwidth expended in this discussion. because "technically" jewelry makers and silversmiths/goldsmiths don't make "solder" joins at all. As the word "brazing" is derived from brass, the vocabulary of the subject is a real mess. Just so happens, I got some Handy Flux, silver solder and Tix solder and flux and have been futzing around with both. Haven't gotten very far with the silver solder but this link provides the methodology which I could only guess at... like flux first? turns clear when hot? Good stuff. But I thought I read somewhere else that heating the flux destroys it..... js -- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.netfirms.com/weekly.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Gems, Sausage, http://schmidling.netfirms.com |
#65
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On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:39:33 -0700, in ôô Jack Schmidling wrote:
http://www.handyharmancanada.com/hbp..._soldering.htm Great link! This would have saved about 90% of the bandwidth expended in this discussion. True. good info. And backtrack a bit to the root site, http://www.handyharmancanada.com , for even more good stuff. I'd note at least one difference between their description of soldering, and how many jewelers do it. Their site says bring the solder to the already heated joint. That assumes, in their description, solder in the form of strip or wire, and the procedure is indeed often done this way, especially with larger work in silver. In goldwork, or smaller silver work, we often use a "solder pick", which can be a sharpened bit of iron rod, or even better, tungsten or the like (doesn't melt or contaminate the solder. I use TIG welding electrodes...) that can be used to pick up a small bit of solder which you've just melted into a ball with the torch flame (after putting just a bit of flux on it, perhaps). now the pick can be used to place that precise amount of solder on the joint when the joint reaches the right temp. More precise than bringing a whole solder wire to the joint, which can sometimes give you too much solder. And in gold or platinum work, it's also very common practice, and perhaps even better practice in some cases, to use small clipped pieces of solder called paillons (a french word). These are placed on the joint prior to fully heating it. The flux holds it in place, and one tries to take care to heat the joint area, not just that solder chip. This method can give the most precise control over placement and amount of solder used. As the word "brazing" is derived from brass, the vocabulary of the subject is a real mess. True enouigh, at least from the perspective of the non jewelers. We in the jewelry business are used enough to the term that we don't generally get confused about what we're talking about. It is, perhaps, an illustration of that old principal whereby each profession tends to invent it's own version of the language with which to talk to itself... Just so happens, I got some Handy Flux, silver solder and Tix solder and flux and have been futzing around with both. Haven't gotten very far with the silver solder but this link provides the methodology which I could only guess at... like flux first? turns clear when hot? Good stuff. Always flux first. The flux excludes oxygen from the joint, as well as dissolving any existing oxides. Without it, solder doesn't flow well, if at all, at least not when soldering in air with a torch. Be aware that handy flux used for "hard soldering", and Tix flux used with tix solder or "soft solders" are totally different materials. They are NOT interchangeable. Handy flux won't help with soft soldering, nor will TIX flux help with hard soldering/brazing. But I thought I read somewhere else that heating the flux destroys it..... overheating it beyond it's normal working range destroys it. And overly prolonged heating will eventually destroy it too, since all the time it's hot, it's working to dissolve oxides, removing them from the metal. It will eventually become depleted/burned out, even if there don't seem to be visible oxides for it to remove. So you don't have 'forever" in which to work on a joint before the flux burns out. how fast that happens depends on the type of metal being soldered, the temps used, and how much flux you've got on the piece. Also not that Handy Flux is a very active flux in part because it contains active fluoride compounds. While that means it works very well, it also means it's important that you have good ventillation when you use it. The fumes given off when it's hot are not at all healthy. If this is a problem with your soldering area, then obtain one of the fluoride free fluxes that are available through any good jewelry tools supplier. Dandix is one, Griffin fluxes are another. And many jewelers use a "so-called" self pickling liquid flux called Batterns, or one like it. These types don't burn out as quickly, but are also not quite as active, needing you to be more sure before hand, that the metal is good and clean. Batterns has the advantage, on gold especially, that you seem to get less fire scale adjacent to the joint than with Handy flux. Not sure why... Peter |
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