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#11
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Kate Dicey wrote:
..=2E. So what? The one you want isn't available except by paying for it. Cough up or do without. Well, it's not for me, so I'm more than glad to do without it. ..=2E. Not it isn't: it's theft if you take something that isn't yours. Theft is theft, hmm. "Hugo began to think about Les Mis=C3=A9rables as early as 1829. He observed the specific incident that triggers the novel's action on the streets of Paris in 1845. On a sunny but cold day, he saw an impoverished man being arrested for stealing a loaf of bread." http://www.lesmis.com/inspiration/author/aboutnovel.htm That's a very black and white perspective, I'd say there are shades of grey to everything, even the claim that everything has shades of grey. No, I don't equate a pdf file to a loaf of bread. The claim that "theft is theft," is, well, a bit much, though. Also, IANAL, but I'm not so sure that copyright infringement is theft, legally. Could be wrong. Scanning the manual is the service. And you don't believe in paying for a service? I pay for service all the time. I, personally, would share the pdf manual, if I had it, and not shed a tear for the lost income for the company/entrepeneur whose business model includes scanning in out of date manuals, nor their employees, which might include someone I know. I'm not sure if your position comes from empathy for those people, or what. For such a strong stance, I'm assuming that. ..=2E. As long as we old machine looneys can keep our dinosaurs going, they have a diminishing chance of selling us a brand new machine! They do it as a service to old friends. Also, most sewing machine manuals are a lot more complex than fax manuals! Yes. But cars are even more complex, and there are free manuals for cars for free download. I think complexity is an arbitrary distinction, I'm sure there are some very simple manuals to download and some complex ones. I'm all for you looneys. In many ways it's good for the environment, humankind, and it's a good hobbey. I just think that this has really nothing to do with theft and more to do with inconvenience. ..=2E. Maybe it makes no business sense to them? Exactly. That doesn't equate copying an old manual to stealing a top secret formula, though. Intellectual property laws vary from country to country. No manufacturer is in business to make sewing machines, fax machines, whatever... They are in business to make money. If something doesn't make money directly, they may do it as a service to further brand loyalty or for good will. They do not HAVE to do it at all. Fax manuals were probably prepared on a computer, and it costs them no time to scan them: the file is available at the click of a button. Old sewing machine manuals were type-set and printed, with no computer involved. It takes time to scan them, prepare them as a PDF file, and get them on a web site for downloading (I know, I've done it). There may be insufficient call for the particular machine machine manual for it to be worth the bother to them. Sure, I agree with those facts. For newer machines, there IS the copyright issue. In addition, why should they make replacement manuals available at all? What do you mean by "there IS the copyright issue?" Fax machines got out of date far quicker than sewing machines. What about cars? Cars have manuals for download and they last a long time. And it's a different business with different cultural mores. Get over it. I don't see that this business is different from any other. As you said, if there was profit in then Brother would give it away. Since there's no profit, of course there's a charge for the service. Even herbal tea companies make money. Ben and Jerry's icecream "sold out" long ago to those evil "corporate" types. It's an example of copyright run a bit amok, not moral dilemna. -Thufir |
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#13
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Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply wrote:
.... My HS journalism teacher used to tell us all the time: "If white is good and black is bad, We all are either grey or plaid." -- William Kepner, circa 1970 Alright, fair enough. .... It's just that some thefts are not as serious as others. In a sense, yes. No doubt it does violate the law, you say it's theft, to copy this manual. "On the other hand, I will freely give email copies of the Singer 66 manual I scanned for a friend to other enthusiasts I know. If I had to send out a hard copy to a stranger, I'd need to be reimbursed for my time, the paper, and the postage," so Kate Dicey doesn't see this as some sort of moral or legal issue, but one of practicality. The intent of this copyright has nothing to do with consumers but with competitors. A seachange in how copyrights work is on the horizon. Of course, there's the piracy issue. There's also open source software, which is often referred to as "copyleft" material. The very existence of a service such as this, scanning in copyrighted material and then e-mailing the file, seems anachronistic given the technology today. Framing this within the technicalities of theft strikes me as overblown. I'm of the belief that the users right to the manual trumps this concern over theft. It's not that Brother and the company which scans in these documents don't have rights but that the individuals rights trump the corporate in this situation. If the manual was something that Brother invested alot into, perhaps to get money from printing them or to increase the value of the sewing machine, then I might see a moral element here. It's about *why* the manual is copyrighted, not that it is. -Thufir |
#15
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Kate Dicey wrote:
.... Not at all: the 66 manual is WELL out of copyright, I didn't know that. and already freely available on the net. SINGER give it away! I scanned mine to preserve a copy (it's almost 100 years old and rather yelloed and tatty) and provide one for a friens WHO HAD A COPY in less good condition than mine and no access to a scanner or the internet at the time. Like anyone, I do things for friends that stangers have to pay for. .... So if you are stupid enough to lose the manual, you 'deserve' a new one free? Try running that under the noses of the machine makers and see how well it trots... .... It's not that the user is entitled to having the company provide the manual, or any support, years later and after the machine has been re-sold; I don't think anyone would put that forward. Where we part ways is probably over the intent of the copyright law. Absolutely, competitors shouldn't infringe on each others manuals. Where's the harm in distributing a copy of a manual for a machine that's no longer in production? I apply that question to fax machines, sewing machines, cars, anything that needs a manual. The difference between your machine and my friends machine is one of degree in that yours is older. I'd go further and suggest manuals would be better released under something like the GNU GPL which'd allow that kind of distribution. I'm not for more laws to fix bad laws, but alternately the copyright laws could be changed. In this case, a manual for a sewing machine/fax/car, there's no intrinsic value to the manual. Why is photocopying the manual theft when the manual itself has no value? If there's a value inherent to the manual I'm not seeing it. The copyright laws paint with too broad a brush. I never really considered it, but I suppose all the PDF manuals I've ever downloaded are probably coprighted, meaning it's illegal for me to distribute them. I can't think why I would, though, since they're free and if someone asked for the manual I'd probably just point them to the download. If this particular machine had been made recently the manual would be free; if not, I can't imagine why not. -Thufir |
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