sweep radius families

Greetings,
I'm trying to find a table of the diameters of various sweeps. Put the
blade of a random gouge on a piece of scrap and spin it: you get a circle.
The circles traced by various sizes of the same sweep number will be
different. Some other sweep+size, however, will fit that traced circle.
That's the information I'm looking for. If I had a cabinet full of gouges,
I'd make the table by experiment. I've clipped the London pattern
illustration from a catalog, but that doesn't provide the information I
need. Has anyone figured this out? Google was no help. Pye's "Tools" book
(IIRC) mentions the situation, but doesn't give the data. He does mention
that the different national styles will have different curvature.

If you're not obsessively analytical, picture this: You've cut a groove.
You want to make the groove wider, without removing wood from the bit you
already cut. Grab a wider gouge and register it in the cut you just made.
Now, what's the sweep and size of that second gouge?

--
vladimir a t mad {dit} scientist {dat} com spam trap, rarely viewed

Australopithecus scobis wrote in
news
Greetings,
I'm trying to find a table of the diameters of various sweeps.
Put the
blade of a random gouge on a piece of scrap and spin it: you get a
circle. The circles traced by various sizes of the same sweep number
will be different. Some other sweep+size, however, will fit that
traced circle. That's the information I'm looking for. If I had a
cabinet full of gouges, I'd make the table by experiment. I've clipped
the London pattern illustration from a catalog, but that doesn't
provide the information I need. Has anyone figured this out? Google
was no help. Pye's "Tools" book (IIRC) mentions the situation, but
doesn't give the data. He does mention that the different national
styles will have different curvature.

If you're not obsessively analytical, picture this: You've cut a
groove.
You want to make the groove wider, without removing wood from the bit
you already cut. Grab a wider gouge and register it in the cut you
just made. Now, what's the sweep and size of that second gouge?

You answered your own question, there is no set "curvature" many use
different means to set the arc for their own shape number, also if they
are hand forged even the same manufacturer will not always be equal to
each other depending on when the die/swedge block etc or whatever "you"
want to call is changed, wear will = change in curature.(G)
As for your example, just use a wider but flatter gouge.
On second thought, just carve, to hell with the mathematical
computations, sorry but your question remnds me of one of George
Carlin's standup routines where the kid receiving religeous training
asks the priest "Hey Fatha, did God ever make a rock so large that even
he couldn't lift it up?"(G)

Wannabe

On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 19:43:57 +0000, Wannabe wrote:

You answered your own question, there is no set "curvature" many use
different means to set the arc for their own shape number, also if they
are hand forged even the same manufacturer will not always be equal to
each other depending on when the die/swedge block etc or whatever "you"
want to call is changed, wear will = change in curature.(G)
As for your example, just use a wider but flatter gouge.

The question isn't quite as obsessive as it first appears. I want to buy
some gouges. I'd rather have some reason for picking this one or that one,
rather than just guessing in ignorance. Or, I could use one of Pye's
suggested starter kits...

--
"Keep your ass behind you"
vladimir a t mad {dot} scientist {dot} com

Australopithecus scobis wrote in
news
On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 19:43:57 +0000, Wannabe wrote:

You answered your own question, there is no set "curvature" many use
different means to set the arc for their own shape number, also if
they are hand forged even the same manufacturer will not always be
equal to each other depending on when the die/swedge block etc or
whatever "you" want to call is changed, wear will = change in
curature.(G) As for your example, just use a wider but flatter gouge.

The question isn't quite as obsessive as it first appears. I want to
buy some gouges. I'd rather have some reason for picking this one or
that one, rather than just guessing in ignorance. Or, I could use one
of Pye's suggested starter kits...

Choosing which gouges (shape/size) is quite a chore for some people, if
you are going to follow a certain carving instructor like Chris Pye
(which is a very good choice in my estimation) then follow his advice.
Otherwise I would look at it like buying golf clubs, problem being you
can't afford to buy the whole set, then buy a driver,and a #3 wood,
irons, that's easy get #3,#5,#7,#9 plus a putter and you can play any
golf course you like.'
With woodcarving it's chisels a #1 or straight gouge, maybe 1/8", 1/4'&
1/2" size.
For gouges #3, #5, #7 ,#9 & #11 same sizes as the straight chisel, if
you find yourself doing large scale carving then increase the sizes in
the shapes need, maybe just by going up to 3/4" sizes in all shapes will
solve a problem.
I haven't mentioned skew gouges or chisels , these are tools that you
might want to look at after you have been carving for a bit of time.
The sizes and shapes I have listed will allow you to do many different
size and type of carvings and most likely will make a large size hole in
your bank account, but hey that's carving for you, a sickness that makes
you buy a new gouge everytime you hear some new self proclaimed Master
carver touting this gouge or that gouge as being the best thing to carve
a certain item.(G)
So if you don't want to guess or chose in ignorance, having the
matematical formula for the gouge shapes will not save you from that
fates, honestly the reason you buy a certain shape or size is because
you have learned you can do the job better after having the experience
doing it with other sizes and shapes.
BTW these suggestions are for full size tools only, buying palm tools
can be treated slightly different, not so many sizes and shapes are
needed when starting out.
There is no magic formula I'm afraid, just experience, so get carving
with whatever carving tools you can afford.
If my comments upset you in any way, then just ignore me, life is too
short and carving too enjoyable to waste your time looking for carving
solutions in matematical formula, at least in my estimation it is.(G)
Ok off the soapbox now.(G)

Wannabe.

On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 21:05:52 +0000, Wannabe wrote:

Australopithecus scobis wrote in
news
On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 19:43:57 +0000, Wannabe wrote:

[snip]
With woodcarving it's chisels a #1 or straight gouge, maybe 1/8", 1/4'&
1/2" size.
For gouges #3, #5, #7 ,#9 & #11 same sizes as the straight chisel, if
you find yourself doing large scale carving then increase the sizes in
the shapes need, maybe just by going up to 3/4" sizes in all shapes will
solve a problem.
[snip]
If my comments upset you in any way, then just ignore me, life is too
short and carving too enjoyable to waste your time looking for carving

No offense taken. Rather, thanks for the valuable information. Lessee, 18
tools at roughly $25 a pop... Ouch. One of the books I read recently
showed the author's tool cabinet. Hundreds of gouges. Wow. OTOH, long ago
I did adequate relief carving with a $2.00 hardware store set. (Ponderosa
pine. Lots of sharpening. )

--
"Keep your ass behind you"
vladimir a t mad {dot} scientist {dot} com

Australopithecus scobis wrote in
news
On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 21:05:52 +0000, Wannabe wrote:

Australopithecus scobis wrote in
news
On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 19:43:57 +0000, Wannabe wrote:

[snip]
With woodcarving it's chisels a #1 or straight gouge, maybe 1/8",
1/4'& 1/2" size.
For gouges #3, #5, #7 ,#9 & #11 same sizes as the straight chisel, if
you find yourself doing large scale carving then increase the sizes
in the shapes need, maybe just by going up to 3/4" sizes in all
shapes will solve a problem.
[snip]
If my comments upset you in any way, then just ignore me, life is too
short and carving too enjoyable to waste your time looking for
carving

No offense taken. Rather, thanks for the valuable information.
Lessee, 18
tools at roughly $25 a pop... Ouch. One of the books I read recently
showed the author's tool cabinet. Hundreds of gouges. Wow. OTOH, long
ago I did adequate relief carving with a $2.00 hardware store set.
(Ponderosa pine. Lots of sharpening. )

You can cut down the cost by keeping an eye on eBay for deals.
As for the author with a tool cabinet full of gouges, I had a similar
experience way back when, an article in Chip Chats talked about this
European master carver and showed a picture of him working at his bench,
the walls were lined with gouges as high as you could reach and almost
to the floor, every wall in the picture was covered..I was in awe, until
I found out much later that the master carver was posed at a bench in
the sales room of his store just for the picture and all the endless
array of gouges shown were his sales stock.(G)
Live and learn.(G)

Wannabe.

Wannabe wrote:
Australopithecus scobis wrote in
news

On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 21:05:52 +0000, Wannabe wrote:


Australopithecus scobis wrote in
news

On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 19:43:57 +0000, Wannabe wrote:


[snip]

With woodcarving it's chisels a #1 or straight gouge, maybe 1/8",
1/4'& 1/2" size.
For gouges #3, #5, #7 ,#9 & #11 same sizes as the straight chisel, if
you find yourself doing large scale carving then increase the sizes
in the shapes need, maybe just by going up to 3/4" sizes in all
shapes will solve a problem.

[snip]

If my comments upset you in any way, then just ignore me, life is too
short and carving too enjoyable to waste your time looking for
carving

No offense taken. Rather, thanks for the valuable information.
Lessee, 18
tools at roughly $25 a pop... Ouch. One of the books I read recently
showed the author's tool cabinet. Hundreds of gouges. Wow. OTOH, long
ago I did adequate relief carving with a $2.00 hardware store set.
(Ponderosa pine. Lots of sharpening. )


You can cut down the cost by keeping an eye on eBay for deals.
As for the author with a tool cabinet full of gouges, I had a similar
experience way back when, an article in Chip Chats talked about this
European master carver and showed a picture of him working at his bench,
the walls were lined with gouges as high as you could reach and almost
to the floor, every wall in the picture was covered..I was in awe, until
I found out much later that the master carver was posed at a bench in
the sales room of his store just for the picture and all the endless
array of gouges shown were his sales stock.(G)
Live and learn.(G)

Wannabe.

If you carve in the traditional European manner you accumulate a lot of
tools. However the key word is 'accumulate'. You start with a basic set,
which can be as simple as Chris Pye's suggested set or something like
the Swiss set shown at www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=3004. Then
you add to them as required.

The principle behind the traditional European approach seems to be 'a
tool for every cut' and that means a lot of tools. But note that the
people with the enormous collections of tools that they actually use (as
distinct from tool freaks) are generally professionals who have been
accumulating for years.

Since most of us aren't trained in traditional European techniques,
we're much better off with a smaller collection of tools fitted to the
jobs we do and our level of skills. Remember with very few exceptions
(such as back-bent gouges) additional tools don't allow you to make
additional cuts. They simply make it easier, faster and perhaps cleaner
to do the same cuts.

In other words, my suggestion is to start small and then add judiciously
as needed.

There's one other consideration here. I find that I need two sets of
basic tools, one for soft woods like basswood and one for hard woods
like oak and tropicals. I found this out by ruining the edges on some
tools while trying to mallet carve white oak with tools sharpened for
basswood. The soft wood tools have a more acute angle to cut more easily
while the hard wood tools are sharpened to a less acute angle to hold an
edge better. Obviously I don't duplicate everything, just basic V tools
and gouges.

Oh yeah. Either learn to make tool rolls out develop a relationship with
someone (like a wife) who can make them for you. As your collection
expands you're going to need more of them and they're simple to make but
expensive to buy.

On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 19:46:48 +0000, Rick Cook wrote:

Oh yeah. Either learn to make tool rolls out develop a relationship with
someone (like a wife) who can make them for you. As your collection
expands you're going to need more of them and they're simple to make but
expensive to buy.

BTDT. Good advice. I save Levi legs. One of each pair has a hole in it...
I've made my own chip-carving tool roll to hold the knives I've made;
sleeves for my rasps, e.g., Nicholson #49; pouches for plane blades;
pouches for my home-made curved scrapers; and a cover for my
metalworking vise. All of these denim projects look "Man"-made, but they
do the job.

Such cut off legs are said to make good sandbags for holding down your
work as you mallet-carve. I haven't tried that yet.

An improvement that I haven't done yet, but recommend to other carvers, is
to stitch a band of leather to the denim to coincide with the business end
of the tools. Recently an acute blade bit me through the denim roll...

--
"Keep your ass behind you"
vladimir a t mad {dot} scientist {dot} com

"Australopithecus scobis" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 19:46:48 +0000, Rick Cook wrote:

Oh yeah. Either learn to make tool rolls out develop a relationship with
someone (like a wife) who can make them for you. As your collection
expands you're going to need more of them and they're simple to make but
expensive to buy.


An improvement that I haven't done yet, but recommend to other carvers, is
to stitch a band of leather to the denim to coincide with the business end
of the tools. Recently an acute blade bit me through the denim roll...


I've kept mine in drawers in toolboxes for years. Just modified some
expanded foam to suit the tools. Handy way to move 'em about, and sits on
the shelf with other boxed tools in the shop.

On the moving - get or make the rolls with handles (like toolboxes), or
you'll find yourself juggling, and maybe dropping when going to club.

On leather. Unless you know how it was cured, it's outside and away from
the steel edges you want to preserve.